Trainee prop trading options, prep, credibility in Australia - Outsider Research

[OmegaTrader]

Cursory information

Genesis is a merger of Eprop and former Aliom .

eProp Trading was formed as a merger of Epoch PTG and Epoch Academy

Epoch is more of a quant style while Aliom is more discretionary * only my opinion

From the website

Our role is to train, develop and support traders. For established traders we offer state of the art infrastructure and compelling commercial partnerships. For aspiring and novice traders, our brand new, world-class trainee trader program, the Genesis Trading Academy has been designed to select, develop and grow a new generation of traders for Genesis.


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List of employees

Attached is a list of employees/former employees when searching the name epoch, Aliom and genesis etc etc......

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[OmegaTrader]

View attachment Employees Epoch and Genesis (2).zipView attachment Employees Epoch and Genesis - Copy.zipView attachment Employees Epoch and Genesis - Copy - Copy.zipView attachment Employees Epoch and Genesis - Copy - Copy - Copy.zipView attachment Trainee Proprietary Traders - Sydney Job in Sydney - SEEK.pdf

 

[OmegaTrader]

View attachment attachment.pdf

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Slightly off topic; this looks a lot easier option than prop trading.

https://www.quora.com/What-does-a-typical-day-at-a-hedge-fund-look-like

A bit of reading stuff on the web and a bit of price monitoring. Wonder what they get paid for that? Unreal.

 

[skc]

Slightly off topic; this looks a lot easier option than prop trading.

https://www.quora.com/What-does-a-typical-day-at-a-hedge-fund-look-like

A bit of reading stuff on the web and a bit of price monitoring. Wonder what they get paid for that? Unreal.

Thanks for the link... interesting insights into the industry.

Obviously the descriptions don't contain all the details... tasks like updating financial models, looking for interesting ideas, calling industry to triangulate assumptions etc may sound simple, but you can do a good job or a bad job at it.

It's a bit like saying a typical trader's day is nothing more than... turn the computer on, check some overnight prices, analyse some charts, reading some news, get some ideas, click buy/sell and watch the positions.

Sounds easy!?

 

[CanOz]

Interesting article . Just can't kick the shower at night habit though....lol

 

[Gringotts Bank]

...but you can do a good job or a bad job at it.

... both for 7 figures, I assume.

The luxury of having a huge institution behind you. Although maybe the pressures are commensurate with that.

 

[OmegaTrader]

Slightly off topic; this looks a lot easier option than prop trading.

https://www.quora.com/What-does-a-typical-day-at-a-hedge-fund-look-like

A bit of reading stuff on the web and a bit of price monitoring. Wonder what they get paid for that? Unreal.

... both for 7 figures, I assume.

The luxury of having a huge institution behind you. Although maybe the pressures are commensurate with that.

Interesting to see how everyone gives a different answer or says it depends

I have no experience in these matter- just my opinion

I would suppose that getting into a hedge fund/ asset management would be more corporate based position, networking etc etc and take a lot of years before you had any decision making opportunities unlike retail trading or prop. Also much more incentives to play the man rather than the game, that is advertising,relationships with investors+banks etc , high fees relative to alpha achieved....

 

[OmegaTrader]

Genesis website


http://www.genesistrading.com.au/

I notice that application is more in depth now including more questions esp I noticed the questions on programming

http://www.genesistrading.com.au/apply-now/

wow this is a lot more than Aliom's form

too much idk??

Preparation

I am going out a limb here and say that the preparation would be similar for trainees at Propex and Genesis.

I mean Guy Bower is now running the Genesis training so...


StarBeta I will do next, traders from Propex now work for Starbeta, curious they all left around the same time.

However their program doesn't have as much detail.

http://starbeta.com.au/apply/

I think preparing is more than just practising mental maths and really is a topic itself maybe for another forum.


Forums

All quote form an old forum form topstocks sorry ASF

old Aliom now Genesis


"1. Aliom Trainee Trader Interview

I have been accepted into the their first training course starts in Oct. I spoke to a friend's brother about Aliom who helped set up CMC markets. He knows the guys who set up Aliom and uses them as for broking services and reckons after Optiver they are the next best trading firm - despite the fact they are not market makers.

The CEO is Justin Richmond and head of trading is Hayden Mackellar - search for Aliom LinkedIn and you can see all the employees that work there. Aliom has been around for about 5 years.

The course is free. You are paid no salary. There are eliminations throughout the training course in weeks 2,4 and 6 make it to the end of week 6 you get a spot trading their capital. As for fees and commission they will be deducted from your trading account along with incurred losses - as soon as you start making a profit naturally this debit balance slowly turns positive (IF you start profiting). It is a partnership with Aliom therefore you have a job today but may not have one next week if you lose a bunch of money.

As for the group interview:

The test they put you through are pretty standard:

45 numerical questions i.e. 45.89 - 56.97

Non-verbal questions i.e. patterns

Brain-teaser type questions i.e. How many times do the clock hands over lap in 24hrs?

You have 15 minutes to do all the sections

The second part of the interview is getting up and giving your educational history, the riskiest thing you have done, trading experience, sporting achievements and 'something unusual about yourself'

They bring you back into the offices for a one on one interview. Some behavioural questions and thats about it - mention that you probably won't earn a profit for about 12 months so you need to be able to live without any income for that period.

That's about it."

 

[skc]

... both for 7 figures, I assume.

The luxury of having a huge institution behind you. Although maybe the pressures are commensurate with that.

7 figures? What currency? Or how many decimal points? I doubt they pay that much for junior analysts. And there will be huge difference between the good and the bad ones. The good ones will have shown enough to run their own fund in 3-4 years, the bad ones won't last through probation.

I would suppose that getting into a hedge fund/ asset management would be more corporate based position, networking etc etc and take a lot of years before you had any decision making opportunities unlike retail trading or prop.

Depends... there is a whole range of different size and style of institutions. Some are huge while others might just be a team of half dozen people managing a few hundred $m.

Also much more incentives to play the man rather than the game, that is advertising,relationships with investors+banks etc , high fees relative to alpha achieved....

Yes and no but I wouldn't assume that to be the case. If you are sharp enough you will come through, even if you are the most awkward person in the world.

 

[OmegaTrader]

7 figures? What currency? Or how many decimal points? I doubt they pay that much for junior analysts. And there will be huge difference between the good and the bad ones. The good ones will have shown enough to run their own fund in 3-4 years, the bad ones won't last through probation.



Depends... there is a whole range of different size and style of institutions. Some are huge while others might just be a team of half dozen people managing a few hundred $m.



Yes and no but I wouldn't assume that to be the case. If you are sharp enough you will come through, even if you are the most awkward person in the world.

no offence SKC

Any question can be answered with depends and semantics games.

What should I buy for dinner? depends allergies, preferences, budget......

What stock should I buy? depends age, risk tolerance,passive or active....



The reason why our species is still alive is because of heuristic rule of thumb not philosophy.


I was generalising....




What I meant is this

In general

1) There is more incentive for agency issues with funds than prop or retail trading.

How many funds % actually beat the market?
Will I leave my retail super fund because they are not beating the market/ alpha?
Do most investors in these funds even know what alpha is ?
Will a fund be brought to it's knees like a prop or retail trader?


In general

2) Junior employees at funds would not be involved in making decisions for several years and still be constrained a lot more unlike props and retail.













A diversion:

Therefore if you are not making the decisions you are not a trader. So it is like any corporate workplace.
You get a salary, you deal with more office politics. You are a analyst or a number cruncher for years not a trader.



I would love that position initially, I take anything I can get....

but by that logic what is the point of even pursing trading I might as well just not even consider what I like and take a job that can make decent money+conditions and do that my whole life because of path dependencies and money.

I don't want to sit on the sidelines forever recommending this and that, researching this and that, dealing with clients this and that, dealing with committees this and that.

I want to make the decisions, of course within reasonable limitations.


I want to play the game not the man

That is why I am researching props not corporate jobs.

 

[OmegaTrader]

I notice that Star Beta has some traders from Propex.

So I will explore StarBeta.

This is the only other prop now there is 3
which I have found that met my criteria, of offering free trainee options and not being a quant based role.

Several traders left Propex in April 2015 to start/join StarBeta.

It seems to be run by Don Di Vincenzo and Mark Zagora.

They both used to work at Propex:

Mark Zagora, Partner at Propex
- Professional trader for 17~ years
- Worked both in Europe and Australia on proprietary trading
- Plays an active role in mentoring and training traders

Don DiVincenzo, Head of Trader Development at Propex
-etc etc

Interesting, a book by mike Bellafiore mentions Mark Zagora, is that the same person idk??? Probably


The greatest reward for starting SMB and then SMBU are the friendships with sharing
traders and educators. Buss Bower, ........ Mark Zagora

So they look similar to Propex and Genesis.


Their trainee program is quite limited on information mostly blah blah self promotion

Trainees are taught to develop their own style within this framework and to develop strategies which they are continually improving and adapting to the changing market conditions.
Since we don’t sell training courses like some other proprietary trading firms our focus is on getting you profitable as quickly as possible.

Essentially you just apply, very simple form.

I would guess that t would bear some similarities to Propex and Genesis.

Good to see competition.

Don't know if it will help me hahahah

Below is an attachment of some of the employees on linkedin.

View attachment Employee STARBETA.zip

Look at bit more into it later.....

Maybe research some quants and the educator props dare I say pseudo props

 

[mjim]

I notice that Star Beta has some traders from Propex.

So I will explore StarBeta.

This is the only other prop now there is 3
which I have found that met my criteria, of offering free trainee options and not being a quant based role.

Several traders left Propex in April 2015 to start/join StarBeta.

It seems to be run by Don Di Vincenzo and Mark Zagora.

They both used to work at Propex:

Mark Zagora, Partner at Propex
- Professional trader for 17~ years
- Worked both in Europe and Australia on proprietary trading
- Plays an active role in mentoring and training traders

Don DiVincenzo, Head of Trader Development at Propex
-etc etc

Interesting, a book by mike Bellafiore mentions Mark Zagora, is that the same person idk??? Probably


The greatest reward for starting SMB and then SMBU are the friendships with sharing
traders and educators. Buss Bower, ........ Mark Zagora

So they look similar to Propex and Genesis.


Their trainee program is quite limited on information mostly blah blah self promotion

Trainees are taught to develop their own style within this framework and to develop strategies which they are continually improving and adapting to the changing market conditions.
Since we don’t sell training courses like some other proprietary trading firms our focus is on getting you profitable as quickly as possible.

Essentially you just apply, very simple form.

I would guess that t would bear some similarities to Propex and Genesis.

Good to see competition.

Don't know if it will help me hahahah

Below is an attachment of some of the employees on linkedin.

View attachment 68058

Look at bit more into it later.....

Maybe research some quants and the educator props dare I say pseudo props

I was about to post an inquiry on Star Beta... so did you get selected? what do they trade?

 

[minwa]

Interesting..never heard of them.

Thanks Omega for the research.

 

[OmegaTrader]

I was about to post an inquiry on Star Beta... so did you get selected? what do they trade?

I am not in Sydney haha

Have not applied to any props yet


It is a relatively new prop you can go on their website for some info+ contact details, a bit basic

It does not look as in depth. But on the other hand run by former head trader/partners of Propex.

I would expect more on the same style as Propex *MY OPINION ONLY

Good luck

 

[hedgedhog]

I notice that Star Beta has some traders from Propex.

So I will explore StarBeta.

This is the only other prop now there is 3
which I have found that met my criteria, of offering free trainee options and not being a quant based role.

Several traders left Propex in April 2015 to start/join StarBeta.

It seems to be run by Don Di Vincenzo and Mark Zagora.

They both used to work at Propex:

Mark Zagora, Partner at Propex
- Professional trader for 17~ years
- Worked both in Europe and Australia on proprietary trading
- Plays an active role in mentoring and training traders

Don DiVincenzo, Head of Trader Development at Propex
-etc etc

Interesting, a book by mike Bellafiore mentions Mark Zagora, is that the same person idk??? Probably


The greatest reward for starting SMB and then SMBU are the friendships with sharing
traders and educators. Buss Bower, ........ Mark Zagora

So they look similar to Propex and Genesis.


Their trainee program is quite limited on information mostly blah blah self promotion

Trainees are taught to develop their own style within this framework and to develop strategies which they are continually improving and adapting to the changing market conditions.
Since we don’t sell training courses like some other proprietary trading firms our focus is on getting you profitable as quickly as possible.

Essentially you just apply, very simple form.

I would guess that t would bear some similarities to Propex and Genesis.

Good to see competition.

Don't know if it will help me hahahah

Below is an attachment of some of the employees on linkedin.

View attachment 68058

Look at bit more into it later.....

Maybe research some quants and the educator props dare I say pseudo props

Very weird to see myself in that attachment

If you have any general questions about Star Beta or prop trading in Sydney in general, happy to answer them in the thread.

 

[OmegaTrader]

Very weird to see myself in that attachment

If you have any general questions about Star Beta or prop trading in Sydney in general, happy to answer them in the thread.

haha nice

The tentacles of the beast are wide and deep :badsmile:

Every and then it opens a door and allows you to peek inside....

Before crushing you again

:eek3:


1) A realistic overview of the prospects, pay split, working conditions, What you are actually doing, What to watch out for etc etc

2) How to prepare for being a prop trader, skills to practice, resources, etc

3) Who are you and or how are you involved??

4) Can you get me into a prop for 30 silver coins

5) History of star beta, Propex, aliom how they are all related etc etc

6) Alternatives to Prop

7) anything else I have missed

8) All of your financial passwords and pins

You should't have offered to answer

You offered a hand, now I will take an arm

haha

cheers

Omega

 

[CanOz]

You asking who mark zagora is on a prop trading thread....sort of like asking who Sydney Crosby is on an ice hockey thread....

 

[OmegaTrader]

You asking who mark zagora is on a prop trading thread....sort of like asking who Sydney Crosby is on an ice hockey thread....

Ahh....

1) I am a beginner and sill learning and so are a lot of other newbies

2) How do you know that is Mark Zagora and not some kid in their parents metaphorical basement


I don't know who Sydney Crossby is along with 99% of all Australians

haha

That is why I am here trying to learn.....

 

[CanOz]

I don't know that it's him either....but I have a mate that knows him...I'll find a way to identify him.