Trading gurus and trading courses

[joe8489]

hi

i am new to this forum so go easy on me if i have broken a rule in starting something that has already been addressed.

a couple of housekeeping questions before I proceed.

1. If i run a search on topic that I would like to discuss and it appears, only thing being that the thread is 2 years old and the last person to add to it did so 18 months ago, am i better off starting a new thread or will people still see that question appear and the thread's start date is immaterial?

2. Am i am able to mention the names of educators , authors impartially or is there some etiquette or rule surrounding that?

ok, i shall commence

firstly, bloody awesome forum , im actually hooked and have evenn found myself vry amused at some of the banter on this thing, not to mention some of the electronic mexican stand-offs between traders - absolute gold.

anyway, I have been trading / investing for a few years, albeit intermittently and have had some reasonable success of late (through trading, not investing i should add). If you read my first post you - assuming you're intrested in doing so - you get a feel for the kind of trader I am and my background. I have been heavily involved in education the past six months and learnt quite a bit. Admittedly, quite a bit through this forum.

What I struggle to get my head is the mere existence of financial education and other resources that are designed to help you make money, to help you think and grow rich, to help you hit your first mill with 24 months of trading bla bla bla.

Why is it that I am skeptical when it comes to these educational resources??
Someone once told me there is a saying "people who can - do. Peope who can't - teach". Why is it that WD Gann was apparently the guru of of wall street, reportedly taking $50m out of the financial markets (Present value) yet he has spent copious amounts of time writing about 20+ books on trading strategies? Why do people purport to have made millions in the sharemarket through trading and then market a 2 day trading seminar valued at $1,500 to a bunch of schmucks on a sunday morning free of charge he could be spending those 3 hours between 9am and 12pm with his kids at the park? Surely a potential $15,000 (1,500 x 10 poeple) - minus costs, over the course of a weekend is nothing in comparison to what one can make in the fx markets or through a money maker platform where the leverage ranges from 20:1 --> 400:1. US$500 a pip on 100 pips for the week is US$50,000 and you dont have to worry about fielding stupid questions on a sunday morning at 9.30am from a some half witted dude who has just found out what the sharemarket is. Especially after a large saturday night drinking pinots with your GF and some firends, having slept poorly due to head throbbing from the wine. Surely , that would be the last thing on that dudes mind. Why does he do it? why is there a score of these sorts of educators out there that market these courses who narket themselves on the back of their innate ability to pick turning points in the market? Are they not better off loading up positions / contracts so they can make $5-10m in a year (possible figure when you factor in the power of leverage and also the certainty (minimisation of risk) inherent in thier trades).

I was reading many of TremblingHand's posts and saw one where he turned a small amoutn on trading capital into a rather obscene one. Whilist I appreciate this isnt the norm, Im quite confident that there are traders who know there stuff, their market and have that type of edge to achieve those sorts of returns. I am also confident that many wouldnt want to divulge their sectrets. Why would they?? If they can make most of the money they need in the market (i say most they need, not most they want) then why would they go for an extra few K here and there when they risk disgruntled budding traders knocking on their door because the trading they were taught didnt suit their genetic make up and trading physchology, hence they lost all the money??

I also read from a few posts relating to TremblingHand's posts that he shouldnt have to divulge his trading strategies for the following reasons:

a) he has worked hard for it, sitting in front of monitors for 8,000 odd hours;
b) it suits his trading personality and it may not suit others so it seems futile sharing it with the wider market ;
c) because by enducating others he may inadvertantly be creating more competition / disrupting the depth of whatever market he trades thereby adversely affecting his trades (im not sure the merit behind this but i am sure there are many thinly traded markets out there)

And I agree whole heartedly, I for one would not be inclined to share vital information with strangers who could potentially profit from my methodology, asides from sharing it with family and close friends, and anyone else who needed geniune assistance (fyi, i am not at that level of expertise yet, but I would say that is how I would feel).

I would be more inclined to 'get it right' before training others. ie. if I had made $30-50mill in the financial markets as that is the amoutn I have calculated I would need to provide for my family and I quite comfortable, then I would definately consider empowring to others wiht the knowledge I have used, then I will change name to joe buffet. But until that happens I will continue calling myself Joe Gekko (without the charm, charisma and $$) and carry on learning and trying to get ahead

I know I have been alittle verbose here , thanks to Mr Pinot , but does anyone share my intrigue on this topic, if so I would be happy for you to either shed some light on it or add to it so that others who have experience with these educators can comment.

 

[Trembling Hand]

LOL

I'm gonna get kicked off for creating multiple aliases.

 

[peter2]

Seems that your pinot is 40-0 and serving for the set as I am not sure what you are asking or want to discuss. Skepticism of any seemingly "too good to be true" claim is normal, but don't let that influence your views about trading success. It is so much easier to sell the dream than create it that is why there is a plethora of trading education.

Reading TH's "...rather obscene..." but generous forum posts shows you that it can be done. What you don't see is the effort/work that TH must have put in to create his dream.

You may continue to read about the dream or set goals to create your own. The education teaches you the process to start. Your trading results (or losses) will give you instant feedback about what needs fixing.

Only you can create your dream. You can't buy an easy solution.

 

[Naked shorts]

TH isnt running any seminars or publishing any books.... yet

I think there are some traders out there who can see the troubles other new traders are going through, think about themselves when they were at that stage and try to help out through genuine kindness. These traders dont ask for money. What they get in return is far greater.

 

[joe8489]

Seems that your pinot is 40-0 and serving for the set as I am not sure what you are asking or want to discuss.

fair point. What am i keen to know is the legitimacy of these educators who spend so much time educating others when they can just be making more money trading theire own account - thereby freeing up there time time so they can do the things they enjoy the most.


I am currently doing a course on trading and I am finding it very useful (though I have only backtested their strategy and have paper traded it for a few weeks now). There are other parts to the course that will help with my education but my only road block is my thinking on educators.

Thanks for your input though

 

[jersey10]

For some people educating others can be a passion and something that they are intrinsically motivated to do. In order to provide this education there can be significant costs involved. I see it as very logical for people who find educating others intrinsically rewarding to charge a fee to the beneficiaries of the education they are providing in order to cover costs as well as make a profit from the years it has taken them to develop the skills to provide that education.

 

[GumbyLearner]

For some people educating others can be a passion and something that they are intrinsically motivated to do. In order to provide this education there can be significant costs involved. I see it as very logical for people who find educating others intrinsically rewarding to charge a fee to the beneficiaries of the education they are providing in order to cover costs as well as make a profit from the years it has taken them to develop the skills to provide that education.

wonderful to say the least, thankyou jersey10!

I just don't believe in throwing bricks threw windows!

There are much better solutions! Just don't let people go hungry, otherwise expect a brick! :

 

[joe8489]

wonderful to say the least, thankyou jersey10!

I just don't believe in throwing bricks threw windows!

There are much better solutions! Just don't let people go hungry, otherwise expect a brick! :

Hi Gumby

I am not sure what you are alluding to here with all your cliches, lyrics and poetry but from my limited experience on this site i am quickly getting the impression that you have a sniff around, riding on the coattails of members who post sound replies to legimate questions because you struggle to come up with anything that resembles an insightful reply on your own.

do try and hold back your comments because so far out of the 4 or so posts you have made, 3 have been drivvle.

 

[GumbyLearner]

Hi Gumby

I am not sure what you are alluding to here with all your cliches, lyrics and poetry but from my limited experience on this site i am quickly getting the impression that you have a sniff around, riding on the coattails of members who post sound replies to legimate questions because you struggle to come up with anything that resembles an insightful reply on your own.

do try and hold back your comments because so far out of the 4 or so posts you have made, 3 have been drivvle.

I'm not a self confessed guru of trading and nor am I hoping to smash out my ideal investments! Sorry if you don't agree with my strategy! You should pay CASH MONEY if you seek greater advice, I DON'T profer as such! Sorry fella ,just a blogger!

 

[Wysiwyg]

Why is it that I am skeptical when it comes to these educational resources??

I would rather err on the side of skepticism than join a group destined for the shearing shed.
One could spend 10 years learning the market machinations and trading methodologies through the eyes of someone else or alternatively, spend 10 years `experiencing` the game first hand.There is a nice balance there somewhere .

 

[Nick Radge]

I'll put in my 2c here, from the 'dark side'

Firstly I'd say that if educators were not of use they wouldn't be in business. Supply and demand. I can say from my own personal experience that there is a huge demand for education after the down turn in equities. My feelings at the time was that it could either way; people just stop trading the markets or they seek out education so they can continue. The latter has certainly occurred in my view. But even so, if an educator is no good at what he/she does, then they'll be out of business.

Secondly, and I think this is appropriate in light of TH being mentioned, is that not all educators actually seek out that route. I was 'sought' out back in 1999 to help people teach them to trade after posting on a forum, no different to this. I started getting PM's to teach. At $1000 per day without so much as the person balking, well why not? Now I can guarantee, without speaking with TH, that he is getting requests from people. I know, because I have had two people just this week ask to be taught like TH trades. He i snot seeking it out. People wanting that experience are seeking him out - again, a natural demand.

I assume that with a comment such as "people who can - do. People who can't - teach" you would know Butch Harmon, Bob Rotella, Mac O'Grady. Let me tell you about Mac O'Grady who 'teaches' people how to play golf. He's never been on tour, not even sure he's won a tour event. He charged US$1000 per hour, but, here is the big one, he only teaches pro's. His clients include Seve Ballesteros, Curtis Strange, Vijay Singh and others. He wa shere in Noosa the other day teaching...more pro's. They came from far and wide, including many touring pro's. I think it ironic one makes the assumption, "people who can do, people who can't teach' because in every day society, every golf club and every tennis club it occurs everyday yet that's okay. But for some reason when it comes to trading there is skepticism. Yes, there are spruikers, but they also exist in golf and tennis. Go figure.

What about the likes of Paul Tudor Jones, William Echkardt, David Kyte, Mark B Fisher. All these guys are some of the largest and most successful traders ever, yet they all run many other busniesses, some of which are teaching, books, seminars, blogs, etc etc.

Why?

In my view my 'non-trading' businesses are exactly that. They are a perfect 'call option'.

Much of what I do is rule based trading. The hard work has been done with years of research. Now it's a matter of 'Just do it' which allows a lot of free time. Being relatively young I still strive to keep my brain reasonably active and still have a passion for the markets to stay in that field. Coaching is the perfect way, and the perfect call option.

Just my 2c...

 

[tech/a]

"people who can - do. People who can't - teach".

I once held this view to a degree.

This changed when I did an "Advanced Management" course at the Adelaide Uni. It was $5000 and I had 2 of my people join me--I was the ultimate sceptic---what could these people teach me--Id been in business 20 yrs--doing! None of the lecturers had been or were in business.--Perhaps my staff would glean something from the course---were my thoughts.

Well after 12 mths my answer to "What could I learn" was---heaps and heaps and heaps! That $15k investment has repaid itself time and time again and still is.

As for trading.
I believe its more about what you DONT need to know than what you THINK you do.

I look for in a mentor Trading/Business/Property---the following

(1) A very broad range of knowledge--a been there done that person.

(2) An ON GOING proven track record in ALL market conditions,I want to see first hand how they handle the good and IN PARTICULAR THE BAD.

(3) I must understand and see out of square thinking---where is the edge I need to see it.

(4) I must know them, do I trust them are they REAL people or purely sales people.

(5) What is their passion is it the same as mine?

(6) Are the answers to my questions specific? Can I understand and see how to implement their advice---if its grey fuzzy--"Look at what I have achieved and here are the irrefutable results"---just doesnt cut it for me.

(7) Can they advise ME or are they stuck in one size fits all mentality
ie My way or the sky way. One size or one mothodolgy doesnt fit all!
Everyone has different circumstances,goals and personalities.

I dont want to trade like TH trades, it doesnt suit ME or Fundamentally or indicator based--etc etc.

They are out there and generally they dont come from flashy advertisements.

I either search mine out---I go looking for an expert in a particular field of which I'm not expert and often dont wish to take the 10,000 hrs to become an expert I'm happy to buy their experience--particularly if I can condense it for my use. I employ Coders for Systems formulas for instance.

OR
Recommendation.
The cream floats to the top.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Much of what I do is rule based trading. The hard work has been done with years of research. Now it's a matter of 'Just do it' which allows a lot of free time. Being relatively young I still strive to keep my brain reasonably active and still have a passion for the markets to stay in that field. Coaching is the perfect way, and the perfect call option.

There is a lot in that. At some point if you manage to make trading work you may find it takes up a small part of your time or any biz. Which is the dream but after a while its just not good for you to be idle. Further more the personality types that do succeed at things they aim for are not likely to be happy for long siting around on their ar$e or hitting a little white ball around.

It would be a natural thing to do - Teach, coach etc.

Or sit around in forums posting praise to yourself under different aliases - by the way where is Wavepicker

 

[tech/a]

Just want to point out that in my view there is a vast difference between a mentor and an educator.

Education can come from every/anywhere, some of the best I have ever received has come from sources that didnt intend to "educate".

 

[tech/a]

I know, because I have had two people just this week ask to be taught like TH trades.

The thought did cross my mind as I read this that quite possibly if these people really questioned their motive it may well be that they want the Profit that TH generates and see his way of trading as the way to get it.

Teaching people to fish wont guarentee Marlin.

True of course for other methods that display excellent returns.

 

[joe8489]

Thanks everyone, and nick, i appreciate your input

I now have a clearer understanding of the rationale of educators after your posts, whilst i will always have a degree of skeptisism , i now have an more open mind. Your replies makes a lot of sense.

Another question I have relates to the failure rate of traders?

The obvious question is why do so many fail when there is such an awareness of the importance of risk management, a trading plan, and trading psychology?

(should I start a new a new thread for this?)

 

[Trembling Hand]

The obvious question is why do so many fail when there is such an awareness of the importance of risk management, a trading plan, and trading psychology?

Because there is not. Or its not practised.

 

[jersey10]

a) he has worked hard for it, sitting in front of monitors for 8,000 odd hours;

So he has only got 2000 hours to go and he should be ok

I have had two people just this week ask to be taught like TH trades.

As a subscriber to the chartist i have contemplated a number of times the exact same thing with Nick, a private consultation that the chartist offers focussing on scalping / swing trading the SPI intraday. I was even going to print out the Nothing to Something thread and take it with me and tell Nick i want to do this. I was inspired by that thread of TH's on here. I have spent probably no more than 200 hours on IB sim TRYING to do this and i'm rubbish. Have turned $50000 into $46000 over 2 months. I have improved since i started and do think it is the type of trading that i prefer as i enjoy it and am persisting with it.
I suspect if i did approach Nick Radge with this request he would respond in a similar way to how Trembling Hand has responded numerous times when people have asked for his 'secret'. That is, you have to do a lot of practice and evaluation and learn how the SPI behaves and the patterns that recur in it on an intraday timeframe. Making it even harder to be taught from someone else is the fact that it is very discretionary trading which would make it impossible to back test.
The reason that i will go for a private consultation with The Chartist at sometime in the next few months is that i think i will learn a massive amount of useful information about intraday trading the SPI that will greatly assist my understanding of the SPI and how to trade the SPI in general as well as some positive expectancy intraday setups for the SPI. This will then enable me to refine how i practice on the IB sim and will make the practice i do more effective. Then all i have to do is clock up 10 000 hours before i go live

 

[Trembling Hand]

The obvious question is why do so many fail when there is such an awareness of the importance of risk management, a trading plan, and trading psychology?

And then even more importantly the three things you mentioned don't mean you will make money. More likely just lose it slower.:

 

[Nick Radge]

Risk management, like a entry/exit/trailing stop mechanisms, are all 'hard wired' technical attributes. They are easy to understand and in most cased replicate, although as TH explains, not the secret to success. The reason why many fail, in my humble opinion, is people unwilling to accept the journey of trading, in other words they place too much emphasis on a single trade, or a small sample of trades. One cannot determine the long term outcome of success from 2, 5, 10 or even 50 trades. A small sample of trades is prone to market nuances which are part and parcel of the journey but people are unwilling to trade through those nuances, instead wanting immediate profits. Hardly will a new trader accept a break even result after 10 trades, let alone 50. So at trades and nothing to show for it they divert into some different method that must be better...and around and around they go.

People do not realize that even the greatest traders actually have strings of losing months, even losing years. Bill Eckhardt, arguably one of the best traders has had 4 losing years in the last 20. Yet, each day, each week, each month and again year after year he stands up to the plate, takes the good trade with the bad trade. the good months with the bad months, the good years with the bad years, but intuitively knowing that because he creates a positive expectancy that he can't fail.

That's where the 95% come unstuck.