Trading guilt

[md44]

md44, r u OK? Have you considered or spoken to a shrink yet, or sort counselling?

I'm no expert but if you have such strong feelings over FX trading and what others "might" think of you, I would assume you have these underlying issues in other areas of your life too. My worry is that what you're feeling could lead to some very dark consequences.

If it bothers you that much, please seek professional help.

I truly appreciate the concern Craton. I have been seeing a psychologist for a few years now (for other issues) and have recently discussed this with them too. Our discussions have been similar to the posts on this forum.

It is definitely worrying me. The only thing pushing me forward is knowing I am seeking help using every possible avenue.

Thanks so much everyone.

 

[barney]

Thanks very much for your reply barney.

I haven't traded for several months because of this guilt . Before that my profits weren't consistent (I think this was again due to the problems with my mindset).

That's interesting md.

Personally I think your feeling guilty about taking money out of the FX market is one of the things you should feel least guilty about in life. In the past I've lost large sums of money trying to trade things without enough skill, and the only guilt I feel about trading is the "letting my family down" guilt.

I think you could perhaps take a step back and try and put trading in perspective compared to other facets of life ... Just a couple of random examples ....

Do you feel guilty if/when ....

1) A shop assistant accidentally gives you more change at the checkout but you don't realise till you get home (They will likely be in the crap with the boss for their till being out)
2) You find cash lying on the footpath. (Maybe that was some young kids wages)
3) You buy a used car and you haggle the current owner down an extra few hundred because they are desperate to sell.

etc. etc. ... Not great examples but you get the drift. I'd feel more guilty about all those above than taking money out of the FX market!

If I were you, instead of feeling guilty, I would focus on becoming successful at trading and then simply donate some of your winnings to worthy causes/charity's ..... win win.

Importantly, Joe Average down the road who is losing on the market will continue to lose whether YOU trade or not. You are not the one causing him to lose and you are not taking HIS money. The size that the average Retail trader trades at has ZERO affect on the market .... no guilt required Cheers.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

I truly appreciate the concern Craton. I have been seeing a psychologist for a few years now (for other issues) and have recently discussed this with them too. Our discussions have been similar to the posts on this forum.

It is definitely worrying me. The only thing pushing me forward is knowing I am seeking help using every possible avenue.

Thanks so much everyone.

What would happen if you won a mill on Tatts? The answer to this question migt be illuminating.

 

[md44]

That's interesting md.

Personally I think your feeling guilty about taking money out of the FX market is one of the things you should feel least guilty about in life. In the past I've lost large sums of money trying to trade things without enough skill, and the only guilt I feel about trading is the "letting my family down" guilt.

I think you could perhaps take a step back and try and put trading in perspective compared to other facets of life ... Just a couple of random examples ....

Do you feel guilty if/when ....

1) A shop assistant accidentally gives you more change at the checkout but you don't realise till you get home (They will likely be in the crap with the boss for their till being out)
2) You find cash lying on the footpath. (Maybe that was some young kids wages)
3) You buy a used car and you haggle the current owner down an extra few hundred because they are desperate to sell.

etc. etc. ... Not great examples but you get the drift. I'd feel more guilty about all those above than taking money out of the FX market!

If I were you, instead of feeling guilty, I would focus on becoming successful at trading and then simply donate some of your winnings to worthy causes/charity's ..... win win.

Importantly, Joe Average down the road who is losing on the market will continue to lose whether YOU trade or not. You are not the one causing him to lose and you are not taking HIS money. The size that the average Retail trader trades at has ZERO affect on the market .... no guilt required Cheers.

Interesting examples. I think yes, I would feel guilty in those situations too. I think the difference between those and FX trading is I am doing it consistently (and the profit is much higher).

I would definitely be donating a significant amount to charity. This is one of my top goals.

What would happen if you won a mill on Tatts? The answer to this question migt be illuminating.

As silly as it sounds, I think I would also feel guilty in this case.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Interesting examples. I think yes, I would feel guilty in those situations too. I think the difference between those and FX trading is I am doing it consistently (and the profit is much higher).

I would definitely be donating a significant amount to charity. This is one of my top goals.



As silly as it sounds, I think I would also feel guilty in this case.

It's pretty straight forward - you don't feel worth it. You don't feel like you're good enough to have what you want.

Try this:

Before you start the day's trading, do something for yourself. The way you decide what to do is to ask 'what would make me feel good?', then do it. Maybe you go to the gym, maybe you go and get a coffee, maybe you clean the house, whatever. Don't think what would feel good... feel what would feel good. You're not going to be very good at this, so practice.

When you do things that create good feelings, the mind automatically registers that you must be worth it. Net result = self worth.

Now trade and notice the difference in both 1) results and 2) how you feel about success.

 

[Craton]

I truly appreciate the concern Craton. I have been seeing a psychologist for a few years now (for other issues) and have recently discussed this with them too. Our discussions have been similar to the posts on this forum.

It is definitely worrying me. The only thing pushing me forward is knowing I am seeking help using every possible avenue.

Thanks so much everyone.

I'm glad you took that the right way and so too that you have sought help. Your posting here is very brave, certainly demonstrates that you are willing to tackle your issues and I praise you for that.

Just wondering. I'm aware of your altruistic motives but why not just stop trading altogether and put that in the, "...it's not for me." basket?

Having said that, I do understand how crippling one's headspace can be and so bid you the very best in finding the solution to assist in resolving your issue/s.

 

[md44]

It's pretty straight forward - you don't feel worth it. You don't feel like you're good enough to have what you want.

Try this:

Before you start the day's trading, do something for yourself. The way you decide what to do is to ask 'what would make me feel good?', then do it. Maybe you go to the gym, maybe you go and get a coffee, maybe you clean the house, whatever. Don't think what would feel good... feel what would feel good. You're not going to be very good at this, so practice.

When you do things that create good feelings, the mind automatically registers that you must be worth it. Net result = self worth.

Now trade and notice the difference in both 1) results and 2) how you feel about success.

Fantastic points. I will definitely practise that activity. Thank you for sharing it.

I'm glad you took that the right way and so too that you have sought help. Your posting here is very brave, certainly demonstrates that you are willing to tackle your issues and I praise you for that.

Just wondering. I'm aware of your altruistic motives but why not just stop trading altogether and put that in the, "...it's not for me." basket?

Having said that, I do understand how crippling one's headspace can be and so bid you the very best in finding the solution to assist in resolving your issue/s.

Thank you very much Craton. I really appreciate the support I am getting from yourself and this awesome community.

In terms of trading long term, yes, you are right in saying that stopping is a serious option at this stage. It's just difficult to convince myself that I wouldn't be "giving up" by doing so.

Thanks all.

 

[md44]

Hi everyone,

Sorry for bringing this issue up again.

I'm still feeling guilty to some extent, although I do think it is slowly going away.

Recently I have been researching zero sum games. Quite a few sources stated that while trading is zero sum, investing is not. This confuses me. Isn't it true that with the exception of purchasing shares via IPOs, even a buy and hold investment strategy is technically trading (since you are interacting with other market participants)?

Thanks again all.

 

[helpme]

Hi all,

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this post so I apologise if it should be elsewhere.

I've been learning to trade Forex since September 2012 (I started live trading in October 2014). Ever since I have been trading live I have been overwhelmed by intense feelings of guilt. After spending quite some time trying to determine why I am feeling this way, I believe it is due to the uniqueness of this business model - specifically, the fact that I'm earning money without creating value, and the principle that if I win a trade the other market participant will lose (although of course it isn't always as simple as this).

Has anyone else ever felt this way? I'm hoping you can provide me with some tips/advice on how to manage these feelings/thoughts.

Thanks very much everyone.

Hi md44,
You are not alone. I have not read through the comments from other forummers in this thread yet.

I share your guilt as well. I did bring up this subject to others but almost all of them thought I am a weirdo. Their opinion centres around "As long as you make money for yourself, why do you bother about value creation?"

To me, it is a need to feel useful. It is the same feeling as the jobless who feel shame about not being useful even if they are not a burden to other people.

To be honest at the risk of offending some people on this forum, investing is not really a socially useful activity. As an investor, I build nothing, create nothing. I earn money by profiting from other people's foolishness but create nothing useful in the process. Sure you can say I provide liquidity to the market. But is providing liquidity really something that makes you excited and proud about your existence? I will be very grateful if someone can convince me I am wrong to hold such an opinion.

I would like to ask forummers who are full-time investors some questions. Do you feel any pressure from society to take a job, start a business and do something useful? How do you handle awkward questions during Christmas when people ask you what do you do for a living?

 

[avion]

There are far bigger things to worry about...

try this:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-20/must-watch-video-veneer-justice-kingdom-crime

or this:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-02/capitalism-requires-world-war

You taking profits out of the market is the least of 'crimes'...

 

[Gringotts Bank]

I think it's a reasonable consideration. If you're very clever in trading a zero sum game, then yes, it's like taking candy from a baby. The 'baby' in this case is the gambler, the naive, the inexperienced. Is that ok?

One way to address this is to say that trading is a contest and all participants are free to enter or stay away. All professional sports operate this way. All business is a contest for customers. You compete with other less clever/experienced businesses. Every success you have means less for your competitor....

...Or does it? There's some philosophies which suggest that the world is completely abundant. This means that everyone gets what he expects from life. It's hard to reconcile such a philosohpy with the concept of 'zero sum', but 'zero sum' might be a false concept.

If you don't get over this guilt, it will impact your ability to profit because as soon as you win you'll sef sabotage with a bad trade.

 

[Wysiwyg]

There are far bigger things to worry about...

try this:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-20/must-watch-video-veneer-justice-kingdom-crime

or this:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-02/capitalism-requires-world-war

You taking profits out of the market is the least of 'crimes'...

Great exposure. Corruption, lies, theft and cheating happens from top to bottom all over the world. Sport charities and religions for example but with finances it is part of the territory. Part of the "game".

"Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king." Bob Dylan.

 

[ggkfc]

Buy some Bugattis and go for a long drive!

 

[StockTrader010]

Markets run on a caveat emptor basis. I don't care too much about the counterparty

 

[md44]

Thanks so much for your contributions everyone. I really appreciate your help with this.

Hi md44,
You are not alone. I have not read through the comments from other forummers in this thread yet.

I share your guilt as well. I did bring up this subject to others but almost all of them thought I am a weirdo. Their opinion centres around "As long as you make money for yourself, why do you bother about value creation?"

To me, it is a need to feel useful. It is the same feeling as the jobless who feel shame about not being useful even if they are not a burden to other people.

To be honest at the risk of offending some people on this forum, investing is not really a socially useful activity. As an investor, I build nothing, create nothing. I earn money by profiting from other people's foolishness but create nothing useful in the process. Sure you can say I provide liquidity to the market. But is providing liquidity really something that makes you excited and proud about your existence? I will be very grateful if someone can convince me I am wrong to hold such an opinion.

I would like to ask forummers who are full-time investors some questions. Do you feel any pressure from society to take a job, start a business and do something useful? How do you handle awkward questions during Christmas when people ask you what do you do for a living?

Thanks for sharing your experience helpme. In regards to your concerns about value creation - I used to struggle with this too, however I don't really feel guilty about this much any more... mainly because I am starting another business too, which will directly create value for others. If my only business was trading then yes I would probably have an issue with that. However, in the case of Forex, the buying/selling activity will always end up helping certain economies, so in a way this can be seen as providing value.

I think it's a reasonable consideration. If you're very clever in trading a zero sum game, then yes, it's like taking candy from a baby. The 'baby' in this case is the gambler, the naive, the inexperienced. Is that ok?

One way to address this is to say that trading is a contest and all participants are free to enter or stay away. All professional sports operate this way. All business is a contest for customers. You compete with other less clever/experienced businesses. Every success you have means less for your competitor....

...Or does it? There's some philosophies which suggest that the world is completely abundant. This means that everyone gets what he expects from life. It's hard to reconcile such a philosohpy with the concept of 'zero sum', but 'zero sum' might be a false concept.

If you don't get over this guilt, it will impact your ability to profit because as soon as you win you'll sef sabotage with a bad trade.

I completely agree with your point about the contest aspect of business. I never used to think like this. It now makes me see that in a way trading isn't that different from traditional business models.

There have been many cases when self sabotage has affected my ability to profit. I am now working very hard to overcome this guilt.

Markets run on a caveat emptor basis. I don't care too much about the counterparty

Agreed. Every trader knows and agrees to the risks before participating in the market.


As mentioned, recently I have been working extremely hard at overcoming this guilt. This is the way I now see the situation:
- No one is forced to participate in the market. All risks are outlined to traders before they open their trading accounts. By participating in the market they acknowledge that they have accepted and understand these risks.

- Without traders our world economies would not function. Traders facilitate price discovery and provide liquidity to the market.

- The counterparty to your trade may not in fact be losing when you profit. Let's say you are going long at a price point. The counterparty may be closing their profitable position at that point. Your transaction is therefore actually allowing them to realise their trade profit.

- As mentioned by Gringotts Bank above, the "contest" aspect of trading applies to all businesses. In a traditional business, a customer gain for you means less business for your competitors.



Just wanting to confirm with you all that my points above make sense.

Thanks very much for your help everyone. I really appreciate it.

 

[ukulele]

It's been an interesting read; thanks for putting it all out there.

I am in a similar boat in that I have felt investment guilt; however in a different circumstance.

I'm fairly young and own a couple of investment properties. I often feel the same guilt; but when it comes to property it's on a much much more personal level. One of my properties is massively positively geared, I actually feel sorry for the tenants because they could own the property for a lot less than what they give me.

With all the media hype around negative gearing and CGT discounts on the one hand I am starting to feel like I am personally responsible for keeping these people "renters for life" or I'm keeping the "first home dream out of reach". Of course on the other hand I feel like that I deserve it because I sacrificed and saved hard and (to put it cockily) I am smart and have a good job. At the end of the day it was me who took the risk.

Now here is where you and I differ. I feel a lot less guilt trading on the forex and stock market so I am diversifying into shares and also do a bit of cfd trading on forex and short shares. I am also diversifying into p2p lending and I have a small holding. I feel like p2p lending is a win/win situation because you are helping someone out whilst cutting out the bank and also getting a decent return. The loans are unsecured so it is a small investment

 

[md44]

It's been an interesting read; thanks for putting it all out there.

I am in a similar boat in that I have felt investment guilt; however in a different circumstance.

I'm fairly young and own a couple of investment properties. I often feel the same guilt; but when it comes to property it's on a much much more personal level. One of my properties is massively positively geared, I actually feel sorry for the tenants because they could own the property for a lot less than what they give me.

With all the media hype around negative gearing and CGT discounts on the one hand I am starting to feel like I am personally responsible for keeping these people "renters for life" or I'm keeping the "first home dream out of reach". Of course on the other hand I feel like that I deserve it because I sacrificed and saved hard and (to put it cockily) I am smart and have a good job. At the end of the day it was me who took the risk.

Now here is where you and I differ. I feel a lot less guilt trading on the forex and stock market so I am diversifying into shares and also do a bit of cfd trading on forex and short shares. I am also diversifying into p2p lending and I have a small holding. I feel like p2p lending is a win/win situation because you are helping someone out whilst cutting out the bank and also getting a decent return. The loans are unsecured so it is a small investment

Thanks very much for your post ukulele.

It's interesting that you feel less guilt trading forex/stocks. I think I just have to remember that trading is a business, and unfortunately there are people that lose in all types of businesses.

I never used to feel this way... the guilt only started a year ago.

 

[Alpaca5]

Hi all,

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this post so I apologise if it should be elsewhere.

I've been learning to trade Forex since September 2012 (I started live trading in October 2014). Ever since I have been trading live I have been overwhelmed by intense feelings of guilt. After spending quite some time trying to determine why I am feeling this way, I believe it is due to the uniqueness of this business model - specifically, the fact that I'm earning money without creating value, and the principle that if I win a trade the other market participant will lose (although of course it isn't always as simple as this).

Has anyone else ever felt this way? I'm hoping you can provide me with some tips/advice on how to manage these feelings/thoughts.

Thanks very much everyone.

I think most jobs don't really provide much value though. Bureaucracy, social workers, "education"/research, the entire legal profession, the entire financial/banking sector which not only doesn't provide value but contributes to misallocation of resources & sucks dry other productive parts of the economy. Unless you are in mining/farming/construction/manufacturing, your contrib to the overall economy is meh.

Basically what I'm saying is, you'll get the same feeling in a LOT of jobs. Also if you are succeeding as a retail trader, good for you, that's a great achievement, and you're not the one screwing people out of money, it's usually a combination of the broker/their own greed/ignorance

I felt the same way as you in my old job and retrained to what I felt was value-add and I am still pushing papers etc :'( lol. Maybe that speaks more to my own ability level though.

 

[ThingyMajiggy]

So don't trade then.

Remember the definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

If you feel guilty and can't get over it, try something else. Plenty of ways to make money. Just remember, someone made over a million dollars selling pet rocks a few years back.

 

[pixel]

Just remember, someone made over a million dollars selling pet rocks a few years back.

Well, HE should be ashamed of himself. Taking advantage of soft-brained individuals who let themselves be persuaded they "need" a rock as a pet. When they already have a head full or those "pets".

But as a Roman Emperor knew already: "nummus non olet" - You can't smell where the cash comes from.