Tony Abbott for PM

[Duckman#72]

What??? Ifocus, have you been on something? Sure he can talk across anything at all, but shouldn't what he says make sense, and shouldn't his remarks be clear in the meaning, and shouldn't they respond to questions asked rather than obfuscation on top of obfuscation?

Are you on meds Ifocus? - or more likely - have you recently gone off them? The way you speak of Rudd, I needed to remind myself that this was the same guy that got speared in August, in charge of the same bunch of clowns that almost got themselves voted out after one term!

As for the rest of your post, I don't think I can add anything to Julia's comments.

Duckman

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

If you look across the Labor front bench there is real talent that all speak on their own to the media unlike the opposition.

Agree mate, they do the talk to the media, but when it comes to voting in Parliament, they are tied to caucus.

Very few votes are allowed by Labor as a conscience vote.

I know for a fact that many Labor figures think Weather/Global warming is a load of cobblers, but they are not allowed say this, or vote as they feel they should.

If they exercise a vote against the party discipline they are out.

At least the Libs and Nats allow people to vote as they wish.

gg

 

[moXJO]

Like John Howard?

I was talking across the bench.

 

[wayneL]

And out of all of them I wonder if many have run a business, or had a real job?

Like John Howard?

Howard practised as a solicitor for 12 years. Despite all our generally low opinion of solicitors, it is a "real job", fulfilling an essential role in our (litigious) community.

 

[So_Cynical]

Agree mate, they do the talk to the media, but when it comes to voting in Parliament, they are tied to caucus.

Very few votes are allowed by Labor as a conscience vote.

I know for a fact that many Labor figures think Weather/Global warming is a load of cobblers, but they are not allowed say this, or vote as they feel they should.

If they exercise a vote against the party discipline they are out.

At least the Libs and Nats allow people to vote as they wish.

gg

And yet strange how they (the Libs and Nats) all vote as a block. its almost like they are following the party line, same as the left side of politics except that officially they don't have to, and yet the reality is...they do.

Its almost a total waste of time anyone actually making an issue out of a political independence that doesn't actually exist. :homer: perhaps it has something to do with the "do nothing" political ambitions and history of the Coalition.

Perhaps it's more a case of the vast majority of Coalition members just not actually having a conscience. :dunno:

 

[todster]

Howard practised as a solicitor for 12 years. Despite all our generally low opinion of solicitors, it is a "real job", fulfilling an essential role in our (litigious) community.

OK then let's try Wyatt Roy then.

 

[nulla nulla]

Howard practised as a solicitor for 12 years. Despite all our generally low opinion of solicitors, it is a "real job", fulfilling an essential role in our (litigious) community.

Practising as a "solicitor" is fairly sweeping. Was he practising in "Family Law", "Commercial Litigation", "Conveyancing" etc etc ????.

 

[Julia]

And yet strange how they (the Libs and Nats) all vote as a block. its almost like they are following the party line, same as the left side of politics except that officially they don't have to, and yet the reality is...they do.

Now that's just a pretty silly observation regarding all parties if it comes to that.
Can't we reasonably assume people join political parties because that party reflects their personal philosophy? Therefore, it's pretty likely they are going to be happy to agree with most party decisions, into which they probably have some input anyway.
(Well perhaps not in the Labor Party, but the Libs/Nats and the Greens do canvas opinion across their ranks).

And I distinctly recall some Libs crossing the floor to vote with Labor over, I think, refugees, a few years ago. Petro Georgio, Judy Moylan and someone else I think.
Then just consider the esteemed Malcolm Turnbull who went against his own party when he was Leader to support Labor's ETS.

You'd never find a Labor MP doing anything as individual, not ever.

So Cynical, it just beats me that you continue to display a total lack of objectivity about the political scene. I don't recall your ever, ever making any criticism of your beloved Labor Party, however horrendous the stuff up.

I'm actually really curious about how anyone can nurse such an uncritical passion in the face of overwhelming odds.

 

[So_Cynical]

Wow Julia just stunning...so the rank and file membership of the Labor party dosen't actually have any input into decision making and policy.

Therefore, it's pretty likely they are going to be happy to agree with most party decisions, into which they probably have some input anyway. (Well perhaps not in the Labor Party, but the Libs/Nats and the Greens do canvas opinion across their ranks).

And of course that's because the Labor party is evil and are really just part of a broader international left wing conspiracy. (we need a tin hat smiley)

And I distinctly recall some Libs crossing the floor to vote with Labor over, I think, refugees, a few years ago. Petro Georgio, Judy Moylan and someone else I think...Then just consider the esteemed Malcolm Turnbull who went against his own party when he was Leader to support Labor's ETS.

And of course the Lib/Nat's are great political independents and guardians of our rights and freedoms because at least 3 of them have crossed the floor over the last half a decade on forgettable, irrelevant, un-winnable votes.

Sarcasm is wasted on a forum.

 

[wayneL]

Practising as a "solicitor" is fairly sweeping. Was he practising in "Family Law", "Commercial Litigation", "Conveyancing" etc etc ????.

And why would that change anything? That's just a red herring, Howard was accused of never having had a real job. It wasn't true.

If he had been a doctor for 12 years, would it be important in the context of this conversation to know whether he was a GP, brain surgeon, orthopaedic surgeon or the local pox doctor?

Of course not.

Let's not get sidetracked with the irrelevancies the left are so fond of.

 

[wayneL]

So Cynical, it just beats me that you continue to display a total lack of objectivity about the political scene. I don't recall your ever, ever making any criticism of your beloved Labor Party, however horrendous the stuff up.

Julia,

Have you not read my thesis on this topic? In it, I have incontrovertible evidence of the impossibility of objectivity in socialist thought. This is why they must resort immediately to logical fallacy and/or ad hominem attack when challenged. It cannot be subjectively supported on its own merits.

 

[nulla nulla]

Sarcasm is wasted on a forum.

Not entirely So_Cynical, some people recognise it and can appreciate it, even if it relates to something they have an opposing view of. Hang in there and keep up the good work.

 

[IFocus]

Are you on meds Ifocus? - or more likely - have you recently gone off them? The way you speak of Rudd, I needed to remind myself that this was the same guy that got speared in August, in charge of the same bunch of clowns that almost got themselves voted out after one term!

As for the rest of your post, I don't think I can add anything to Julia's comments.

Duckman

LOL much more serious gave up coffee 2 weeks ago, thanks for the concern

A am not an apologist nor fan of Rudd but I have listen to him talk about really complex issues in such detail that I don't hear from others.

That depends on how you would define 'smart'.
I didn't find him smart at all.

He lacked the capacity to build relationships which is absolutely fundamental in politics.

He lacked the ability to communicate with pretty much everyone, his own MP's and the general public alike.

He was all about rhetoric and noble sounding statements but totally lacked the ability to follow up in any practical sense.

Intellect and capacity separate from personal traits and behavior

Became leader of the Labor party in opposition without being a member of a faction I don't think its been done before too often in any of the major parties.

Rolled one of the top political figures of Australian political history in the last 40 years and won an election land slide when Australia was booming again hast been done to many times.

You cannot do this being like a simpleton like Abbott

That's a bit insulting, and unworthy of you. Why would you suggest your peers on ASF are any less discerning of spin than you are?
I'd actually suggest many of us are much less taken in by party spin than you are. Some of us retain objectivity about both parties, rather than a slavish adherence to just one.

No Insult intended actually if you read back thought the threads criticism of the Rudd era most vocal is about spin

Kevin Rudd, with his amazing capacity for double speak/incomprehensible responses to questions, would pretty much take the cake for spin imo.

But, no, on second thoughts, Wayne Swan way outdoes him on this.

There you go spin disagree about Swan not even close to Rudd

What??? Ifocus, have you been on something? Sure he can talk across anything at all, but shouldn't what he says make sense, and shouldn't his remarks be clear in the meaning, and shouldn't they respond to questions asked rather than obfuscation on top of obfuscation?

you are focusing on the political speak I talking about when actually speaking about serious issues.

Without dragging in politics? !!!! What on earth has happened to the measure of objectivity you've displayed in recent weeks?
They all are totally about politics, and Mr Rudd was the absolute epitome of this when PM.

Again I am not talking about question time etc I am talking about the mans intellect capacity again not behavior.

No argument that he well and truly lost the plot, but I'd say his demise is a relief to Australia, certainly not a loss.
I have only to hear him waxing on about something in his role as Foreign Minister, to be reminded of how much better Julia Gillard is.
And that is in no way any endorsement of approval for Ms Gillard.

His 1st question answer session as Foreign Minister actually demonstrated my point.

Just was a shame to see Stephen Smith ousted to make way for Rudd's return. Mr Smith was always responsive to questions, reasonable in his approach, and imo has been badly used by the Labor Party.

Actually Smith is needed far more in defense as John Faulkner

Surely you can't seriously believe Mr Rudd was deposed without any consultation with his front bench?

Yep dont think any of them knew or were included

Hah, and that could change in a minute. It will only take a serious falling out with the Independents to completely turn the balance around.
I don't think the Independents at this stage have any interest in seeing this happen because it would make them look even sillier than they do now, but it's always a possibility, and as a result Ms Gillard will be even more reluctant to actually govern than she is now. So far she is coming across as a complete puppet leader.

So far Gillard has actually handled the situation like an adult unlike Abbott and Gillard is a puppet of no one believe that believe Abbott spin.



Have to go more later........

 

[nioka]

The way you speak of Rudd, I needed to remind myself that this was the same guy that got speared in August, in charge of the same bunch of clowns that almost got themselves voted out after one term!Duckman

I've said it before I'll say it again "We are all clowns in someone elses eyes".

I rate Rudd well above most here that criticise him. People who are voted into parliament must have the confidence of a majority in their electorate or they wouldn't get there in the first place. That in itself must take them out of the "clown" department.

We should all accept the fact that there are others in the community that have different social objectives, different attitudes to money, different religious beliefs and different life experiences.

We certainly show here that we have different degrees of tolerance to others.

 

[Mofra]

And I distinctly recall some Libs crossing the floor to vote with Labor over, I think, refugees, a few years ago. Petro Georgio, Judy Moylan and someone else I think.
Then just consider the esteemed Malcolm Turnbull who went against his own party when he was Leader to support Labor's ETS.

You'd never find a Labor MP doing anything as individual, not ever.

Two ways to look at that - one is that the Libs give more credence to conscience votes, the other is that the Libs policies can be unconscionable even to their own party members.

As an aside, listening to Petro Georgiou you do understand quickly why he was so popular in his electorate - someone who served his electorate before his own personal interests. Not many of those around these days.

In any case, sitting MPs (major parties anyway) vote along party lines in the vast majority of cases and the 0.1% of the time they don't really is splitting hairs.

 

[Julia]

Wow Julia just stunning...so the rank and file membership of the Labor party dosen't actually have any input into decision making and policy.

Yep dont think any of them knew or were included

This from IFocus regarding the dismissal of Kevin Rudd.

You're both Labor supporters and you make opposite assertions.

Sarcasm is wasted on a forum.

Sarcasm is the inadequate refuge of those unable to articulate a rational, reasoned defence of their view.

LOL much more serious gave up coffee 2 weeks ago, thanks for the concern

Ah, all is explained. Why did you give up coffee (with apologies for diverting the thread.)?

Intellect and capacity separate from personal traits and behavior

Yes, of course, but if we're discussing Mr Rudd's capacity to be PM, his intellect (which is undoubted) is probably less important than his ability to get on with people and form good relationships.

Became leader of the Labor party in opposition without being a member of a faction I don't think its been done before too often in any of the major parties.

Sure. Good point.

You cannot do this being like a simpleton like Abbott

I'm the first to acknowledge Mr Abbott's limitations, but I don't think it's reasonable to describe him as a simpleton. The bloke was a Rhodes scholar.
Not too many simpletons achieve that distinction.

you are focusing on the political speak I talking about when actually speaking about serious issues.

I honestly never heard him speak in anything other than the obfuscating political jargon.

Actually Smith is needed far more in defense as John Faulkner

That's not the point, IFocus. You know what I was talking about, i.e. that Stephen Smith got shafted so that Ms Gillard could keep her promise to Mr Rudd that (presumably) if he'd stop damaging the party, she would reward him with the position of his choice when they were re-elected.

So far Gillard has actually handled the situation like an adult unlike Abbott and Gillard is a puppet of no one believe that believe Abbott spin.

I can't quite understand what you're saying here.
I don't mind Ms Gillard in some ways, and don't especially believe she will be pushed around by the factions or the unions.
She just seems reluctant to make decisions of her own, understandably given that to do so she's almost certain to upset one interest group or another, and she has to try hard to keep all the balls in the air at one time.
I was referring more to her quasi hiding behind the Defence Chief in making decisions about overseas deployments. If she's going to be PM, she's going to have to make some decisions herself.

In any case, sitting MPs (major parties anyway) vote along party lines in the vast majority of cases and the 0.1% of the time they don't really is splitting hairs.

Of course they do, but it's not unreasonable to point out that Coalition members have actually gone against the party line whereas I'm unaware of ANY instance where the same has happened from the Labor Party.

 

[moXJO]

Sarcasm is the inadequate refuge of those unable to articulate a rational, reasoned defence of their view.

Oh geez thanks
There goes 90% of my posts.

 

[trainspotter]

Practising as a "solicitor" is fairly sweeping. Was he practising in "Family Law", "Commercial Litigation", "Conveyancing" etc etc ????.

Howard was educated at a public high school but did a law degree at the University of Sydney and was admitted as a solicitor of the New South Wales Supreme Court in July 1962. He worked for leading Sydney legal firm Stephen, Jacques and Stephen. (specialised in company law I believe)

Remember Howard's enduring and fabled connection to the electorate was his understanding of an aspirational blue-collar band that became known as the "Howard battlers".

A variation on that theme was Kevin Rudd's notion of "working families" that helped deliver him power in 2007. Government-schooled, but university-educated, ex-diplomat and former political staffer Rudd, that is. (not a solicitor)

Rudd studied an arts degree in Asian studies at the Australian National University, majoring in Chinese language and Chinese history. He worked for the Department of Foreign Affairs from 1981 and from 1988 he was Chief of Staff to the Queensland Labor Opposition Leader and later Premier, Wayne Goss. After the Goss government lost office in 1995, Rudd was hired as a Senior China Consultant by the accounting firm KPMG Australia. Elected to Parliament in 1998. (Guvmint spoon fed nancy boy)

Abbott was schooled at St Aloysius' College before completing his secondary school education at St Ignatius' College, Riverview in Sydney. He graduated with a Bachelor of Economics (BEc) and a Bachelor of Laws (LLB) from the University of Sydney where he resided at St John's College, and was president of the Student Representative Council. He then went on to attend the Queen's College, Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar and graduated with a Master of Arts (MA) in Politics and Philosophy.

With gratuitous thanks to Wikepedia and Google.

Far from a "simpleton" me thinks on the academic front.

 

[nulla nulla]

Howard was educated at a public high school but did a law degree at the University of Sydney and was admitted as a solicitor of the New South Wales Supreme Court in July 1962. He worked for leading Sydney legal firm Stephen, Jacques and Stephen. (specialised in company law I believe)

Remember Howard's enduring and fabled connection to the electorate was his understanding of an aspirational blue-collar band that became known as the "Howard battlers".

A variation on that theme was Kevin Rudd's notion of "working families" that helped deliver him power in 2007. Government-schooled, but university-educated, ex-diplomat and former political staffer Rudd, that is. (not a solicitor)

Rudd studied an arts degree in Asian studies at the Australian National University, majoring in Chinese language and Chinese history. He worked for the Department of Foreign Affairs from 1981 and from 1988 he was Chief of Staff to the Queensland Labor Opposition Leader and later Premier, Wayne Goss. After the Goss government lost office in 1995, Rudd was hired as a Senior China Consultant by the accounting firm KPMG Australia. Elected to Parliament in 1998. (Guvmint spoon fed nancy boy)

Abbott was schooled at St Aloysius' College before completing his secondary school education at St Ignatius' College, Riverview in Sydney. He graduated with a Bachelor of Economics (BEc) and a Bachelor of Laws (LLB) from the University of Sydney where he resided at St John's College, and was president of the Student Representative Council. He then went on to attend the Queen's College, Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar and graduated with a Master of Arts (MA) in Politics and Philosophy.

With gratuitous thanks to Wikepedia and Google.

Far from a "simpleton" me thinks on the academic front.

Thank you for that Trainspotter.
John Howard wouldn't have been hired straight out of University by them unless he had done well in the fields of law he was studying.
Your objective post in regards Kevin Rudd is also refreshing.
Similarly for Tony Abbott to win a Rhodes scholarship is equally impressive.
(I believe Malcolm Fraser and Bob Hawk were also Rhodes Scholars).

Unfortunately, on his performance since being elected to parliament, I do not see Tony Abbott as prime ministership material. But then I didn't consider Mark Latham as prime ministership material either.

 

[Macquack]

Abbott was schooled at St Aloysius' College before completing his secondary school education at St Ignatius' College, Riverview in Sydney. He graduated with a Bachelor of Economics (BEc) and a Bachelor of Laws (LLB) from the University of Sydney where he resided at St John's College, and was president of the Student Representative Council. He then went on to attend the Queen's College, Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar and graduated with a Master of Arts (MA) in Politics and Philosophy.

With gratuitous thanks to Wikepedia and Google.

Far from a "simpleton" me thinks on the academic front.

With all those qualifications, how come Abbott can't string two words together?

Abbott may well be a classic example of a "rote" learner. He can memorise and repeat written statements, but has little comprehension or logic.