Tony Abbott for PM

[nulla nulla]

1. The first Government to take a step to address historical abuses of Indigenous Australians by saying "Sorry";
2. The introduction of "Fair Work Australia" which became effective on 1 January 2010, to unravel the unfair "work Choices" of the preceding government (If you have any family members entering an apprenticeship or the work force you would be aware of the unfair work conditions they faced under "Work Choices");
3. Increased funding to education, bringing infrastructure and resources into the 21st century (for example: every high school child issued with a computer);
4. Aged Pensioners received their first decent increase after several terms of nothing under the liberals;
5. Introduction of paid maternity leave (from January 2011);
6. Teen dental care where every teenager in Australia receives a free visit to the dentist each year;
7. Kept Australia out of recession through the swift application of stimulus packages; and

I could go on and on. Some you may agree with some you may not. That is the beauty of Australia being a democracy. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, everyone is entitled to express their opinion and everyone is entitled to vote in accordance with their opinion.

Hopefully we can now return to the crux of this thread.

 

[trainspotter]

1) sorry for what exactly?
2) work choices. .. Fair work choices. .. Do you actually know the difference? All it means is a small change to the amount of staff for business to dismiss without repercussions of being sued by a disgruntled employee.
3) you got to be kidding me right? Where are the laptops ans extra funding? ??? FAIL in epic proportions
4) hahahaaaahhhaaaaaa $15 a fortnight is laughable as an increase. Does not even cover cpi increases.
5) anyone ask the employers about this? ??? Watch how many women will not get employment due to the added cost of pregnancy to the employer.
6) a free dentist checkup. ... Woooooooopppeeeeeeee. How about a job instead.
7) are you for real? ??? Labor is taking credit for getting us through the gfc??? WTF???? If the previous govt had not left the country and economy in such good shape for these spendaholics to plunder it would be a different tune.

Get a grip nulla nulla. You did not even know that western australia funds 60 per cent of gdp.

 

[nulla nulla]

1) sorry for what exactly?

No offence but you are showing your ignorance here, displaced persons, stolen generations etc. It wasn't hard to say "Sorry". It cost nothing and meant a lot.

2) work choices. .. Fair work choices. .. Do you actually know the difference? All it means is a small change to the amount of staff for business to dismiss without repercussions of being sued by a disgruntled employee.

It is about preserving pay and conditions and penalty rates for everyone. Unfair dismissal was only a small part of it blown out of proportion.

3) you got to be kidding me right? Where are the laptops ans extra funding? ??? FAIL in epic proportions

All students from year 9 onwards were supplied with a computer, don't know where you are getting your information from.

4) hahahaaaahhhaaaaaa $15.00 a fortnight is laughable as an increase. Does not even cover cpi increases.

Add that to the previous $30.00 per week given in 2008-2009 and they are actually $75.00 per fortnight better off. Once again you really need to check before slagging off .

5) anyone ask the employers about this? ??? Watch how many women will not get employment due to the added cost of pregnancy to the employer.

The cost is borne by the Government not the employer. As an employer, it won't make any difference to my hiring women.

6) a free dentist checkup. ... Woooooooopppeeeeeeee. How about a job instead.

The Dental care is for a checkup and clean. For a family with 3 teenage children this represents an annual saving of approx $500.00 and for a financialy disadvantaged family it may make the difference between some care and no dental care at all. Are we really so meanfisted that we begrudge the financially disadvantage the opportunity for some dental care?

7) are you for real? ??? Labor is taking credit for getting us through the gfc??? WTF???? If the previous govt had not left the country and economy in such good shape for these spendaholics to plunder it would be a different tune.

Pity they didn't have the foresight to invest in some of the much needed infrastructure that is now being put in place as part of the long term recovery

Get a grip nulla nulla. You did not even know that western australia funds 60 per cent of gdp.

Without admission, what relevance has this to what Labor did in the last term of governement, which is what Sails was asking me to provide three 3 examples of?

And in closing.................



I knew this would come in handy one day...

 

[sails]

Hey Nulla, thanks for the response. No, not looking for a barney. Genuinely interested in the thinking behind your posts.

I am still rather mystified about work choices. It was a huge advertising scare campaign by labor against Abbott at the last election. Labor won the 2007 election and yet it took them until Jan 2010 to start implementing changes? It doesn't look like they are really serious about making changes.

Yes, I do know of some that were hurt by work choices, however, they are still blaming work choices for their problems which makes me think labor have done very little about it even though they governed with a large majority for nearly three years. Any comments on it would be much appreciated.

I thought every school child was supposed to get a computer, but maybe I heard that wrong. I personally don't know of any student that has received a computer.

Anyway, thanks again for taking time to reply..

 

[nulla nulla]

Hey Nulla, thanks for the response. No, not looking for a barney. Genuinely interested in the thinking behind your posts.

I am still rather mystified about work choices. It was a huge advertising scare campaign by labor against Abbott at the last election. Labor won the 2007 election and yet it took them until Jan 2010 to start implementing changes? It doesn't look like they are really serious about making changes.

Yes, I do know of some that were hurt by work choices, however, they are still blaming work choices for their problems which makes me think labor have done very little about it even though they governed with a large majority for nearly three years. Any comments on it would be much appreciated.

I thought every school child was supposed to get a computer, but maybe I heard that wrong. I personally don't know of any student that has received a computer.

Anyway, thanks again for taking time to reply..

The biggest problem with the changes implement by labor government has always been getting the changes through the senate, where they do not hold the balance of power. This is not expected to change, although in July next year the greens will have the balance of power not the independents.

My son in year 11 has had his laptop since the end of year 9, you see heaps of students carrying the bloody things arround. The IT industry in Australia must love this policy.

 

[wayneL]

1. They saw off John Howard;
2. They saw off Kevin Rudd; and
3. They stopped Tony Abbott from becoming Prime Minister of Australia.

That could be considered as 3 good achievements of the last three years to a lot of people.

These indeed could be considered good achievements, especially to Fabian Socialists and those whose psyche they've managed to influence. But the alternatives have been decidedly worse.

It's a bit like removing a hernia and replacing it with a cancer.

 

[nulla nulla]

These indeed could be considered good achievements, especially to Fabian Socialists and those whose psyche they've managed to influence. But the alternatives have been decidedly worse.

It's a bit like removing a hernia and replacing it with a cancer.

Is that a subjective or objective opinion?
It could be like removing a cancer then having to endure a treatment of chemotherapy and/or radiation treatment. The cure being as bad as the disease.

 

[Julia]

No offence but you are showing your ignorance here, displaced persons, stolen generations etc. It wasn't hard to say "Sorry". It cost nothing and meant a lot.

It's not for me to put words into TS's mouth, but I doubt that he's ignorant at all. Rather, my interpretation of what he was asking is "what has actually changed for aborigines?"
Nothing, as far as I can see.
The Apology, typical of Kevin Rudd, was big on rhetoric and zilch on practical application. Many aboriginal people who initially were grateful have since said asked what happened to what they expected would flow from this oh so benevolent apology.

All students from year 9 onwards were supplied with a computer, don't know where you are getting your information from.

I could likewise say I don't know where you are getting yours from.
I mentor students at a large State high school, and occasionally at the primary school. None of these students has their own laptop.
Even classroom computers are limited to two computers for a class of 25 students.
So a great big fail there as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps your son's school is in a Labor electorate.

Add that to the previous $30.00 per week given in 2008-2009 and they are actually $75.00 per fortnight better off. Once again you really need to check before slagging off .

I don't know the actual amounts so won't comment. But most pensioners I've come across are still finding it difficult to cope with hugely increased electricity and general cost of living increases.

The government declined absolutely to consider the plight of unemployed people who receive much less than pensioners. Most of these folk (many of whom have been retrenched in the GFC and are not at all shirkers) do not receive enough in their Dole to make basic mortgage or rent payments.
No wonder the homeless statistics are increasing.
(That is not to say, however, that the Libs would have been any more thoughtful toward the unemployed. I don't know.)

The cost is borne by the Government not the employer.

Um, let's be real here. You mean the cost is born by the taxpayer who, as far as I'm aware, wasn't consulted about whether they were happy about their tax dollars being used for such a scheme.

As an employer, it won't make any difference to my hiring women.

It may not to you, but I know many employers to whom it will make a decided difference.

The Dental care is for a checkup and clean. For a family with 3 teenage children this represents an annual saving of approx $500.00 and for a financialy disadvantaged family it may make the difference between some care and no dental care at all. Are we really so meanfisted that we begrudge the financially disadvantage the opportunity for some dental care?

I don't think so at all. I'd like to see a dental scheme extended through the population. We should not, in a wealthy country like Australia, be seeing pensioners unable to eat because they can't get replacement dentures, or people with rotten teeth unable to get to see a public dentist because the waiting lists are more than 7 years long!

And sure, the basic check up for teenagers is a good start. But if the dentist says, 'well now, little Janey needs ten fillings, so that will be $2000," where is your disadvantaged family then? They still have a kid with rotten teeth. They are, however, clean rotten teeth. Whacko!

Pity they didn't have the foresight to invest in some of the much needed infrastructure that is now being put in place as part of the long term recovery

Quite correct. But what infrastructure is the current government actually putting in place? They have wasted huge amounts on dodgy, dangerous, rorted schemes like pink batts and the BER: money that could have been so usefully placed into needed infrastructure.
Our hospitals and health system overall is very sick. I have no idea how many new hospital beds or aged care places could have been funded by the wasted money on the above rorted schemes, but it would certainly have been enough to have made an appreciable difference.

And please don't trot out that now oh so tired phrase about how the government saved us from the GFC. Many an economist has more recently suggested the GFC never actually affected Australia, so healthy was our economy with the properly regulated and profitable banks, the surplus from the previous government, and the mining revenue.

Imo the government panicked and spent too much too quickly.

 

[IFocus]

You may well be right on this.
If this 'deadwood' were to be removed, who in the Coalition would you see as being capable of stepping up to the front bench?

Until Labor removed the old guard from the Hawk Keating years they kept losing elections. Coalition I think will have the same problem while Abbott run's the show you will not see the development of new talent he made that clear after the election.

I think this is where they have the major problem. Scott Morrison and Greg Hunt seem fairly promising, but have nowhere near the experience required to be in Cabinet.

You could probably throw Peter Dutton in as well but out of the three Hunt is head and shoulders hence that's why hes shadow environment.

It's a great shame imo that Nick Minchin has moved to the back bench. He has always been capable of more than he was given. George Brandis, too, could take a stronger role, though you probably consider him amongst the
deadwood too?

Really dislike both of them but Minchin is a very good performer for the Coalition (top 2 or 3) it was he who got Abbott elected leader and also though the election, Brandis is also very capable but absolutely no sense of humility.

At least the Libs don't go for the celebrity appointments, a la Peter Garrett.
What a dismal failure he has been in every possible sense.

To be fair he should never have been minister so soon but failure all the same don't understand him getting education.

The issue for Abbott is he is a head kicker / attack dog with no clever ideas or view of the future. None, nothing, zilch and it nearly won an election combined with Labor in disarray.

If Abbott cannot change gears (Afghanistan proves he cannot) then really he wont be leader for the next election.

 

[nulla nulla]

As I said in post 1081, "I could go on and on. Some you may agree with, some you may not.
That is the beauty of Australia being a democracy. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, everyone is entitled to express their opinion and everyone is entitled to vote in accordance with their opinion.

Hopefully we can now return to the crux of this thread which is about "Tony Abbott for PM", unless of course it has been totally exhausted.

 

[Duckman#72]

Until Labor removed the old guard from the Hawk Keating years they kept losing elections. Coalition I think will have the same problem while Abbott run's the show you will not see the development of new talent he made that clear after the election.

Possibly the worst thing that could have happened to the Coalition was getting so close to Labor in the 2010 election. They could well fall into the same mindset that Labor fell into when Beasley almost beat Howard after his first term. Kim was considered a "saviour" who clawed Labor back from a wipeout. It was considered a foregone conclusion that they were on the right track back to power. Hence the cleanout was delayed for years.

The Coalition can almost touch the buried treasure, and I doubt they will want to take any backward steps even if it means they might get better access to it.

Based on the follow points, I believe that the Coalition can afford to wait at least 6 months before they do a "clean out" of "deadwood";

* I don't feel that the state of play has altered much in the months since the election. Voters are still undecided, partly because neither Leader has actually looked and acted like a Leader.
* Credit where credit is due, the Coalition were on the road to nowhere this time last year. Abbott and his crew performed better than most expected. Sure he didn't win - but as we heard enough on ASF - posters were laughing at the Coalition in January saying it was "unelectable" and heading for decimation.
* Nothing seems to have changed in Government. The Murray-Darling fiasco along with Windsors involvement just goes to show that the botched programs and projects of the last term may very well continue under Gillard. Unbelievably, the Government continues to blame Howard for problems with this rollout!!
* The Labor State Governments are in complete and utter disarray. And the Unions are using the State Governments in open defiance against Federal Labor directives.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the next 6 months will be crucial in my opinion. If Abbott can rise to the Prime Miinisterial occasion (no easy task) and Labor continue with their bungles, blames, Union demands and unaccountable projects - the Coalition is sitting pretty. No major changes are necessary. BUT if Tony continues to underperform and Labor under Gillard actually finds its feet, then urgent action needs to be taken.

Tony needs to get the "poor me" chip off his shoulder. He says that Australians want a "strong opposition". I say he is confused! We want a "strong alternate Government". If he started acting like an alternate Prime Minister things would be better. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Abbott got so close to the goal, until further notice, he deserves some support to fine tune another attempt.

Duckman

PS Nulla Nulla - the "time space continuum" doesn't work like that. A future version of me only appears after I have done something in the present that affects my future. To give you an answer about the future of MQG I need to buy a large amount of the shares. Can you please PM me so that I can give you my bank account details. If you transfer approximately $100,000 into my account I will organise the purchase the moment the funds are cleared tomorrow.

Duckman

 

[Julia]

PS Nulla Nulla - the "time space continuum" doesn't work like that. A future version of me only appears after I have done something in the present that affects my future. To give you an answer about the future of MQG I need to buy a large amount of the shares. Can you please PM me so that I can give you my bank account details. If you transfer approximately $100,000 into my account I will organise the purchase the moment the funds are cleared tomorrow.

Duckman

Wow, now there's an offer, Nulla! How could you refuse?

Gidday Duckman, I concur with all your comments re the political stuff.

 

[noco]

Wow, now there's an offer, Nulla! How could you refuse?

Gidday Duckman, I concur with all your comments re the political stuff.

So do I Julia, but we are all forgeting the Greens influence on Julia Gillard. I beieve the Greens will be her downfall and Abbott should capitilise on the situation.
Abbott quoted on an interview this morning with Laurie Oaks, "LABOR MIGHT BE IN GOVERNMENT BUT THE GREENS ARE IN POWER".
Even Brumby in Victoria is asking the Liberals not give the Greens their preference. Instead give their preference to Labor.He is one worried boy IMHO.

 

[sails]

Until Labor removed the old guard from the Hawk Keating years they kept losing elections. Coalition I think will have the same problem while Abbott run's the show you will not see the development of new talent he made that clear after the election....

Interesting thought, IFocus. However, although Labor won the 2007 election, they dumped the PM who won it. The new guard apparently didn't cut it.

The next "new guard" PM didn't manage to win a 2nd term in her own right and also lost many seats in the process despite 2nd terms being historically a given to the incumbent.

Sure, it got labor into power, However, it doesn't give me a lot of confidence to look for a "new guard" in the coalition when watching how labor's "new guard" has been quite a spectacle, to say the least.

 

[nulla nulla]

PS Nulla Nulla - the "time space continuum" doesn't work like that. A future version of me only appears after I have done something in the present that affects my future. To give you an answer about the future of MQG I need to buy a large amount of the shares. Can you please PM me so that I can give you my bank account details. If you transfer approximately $100,000 into my account I will organise the purchase the moment the funds are cleared tomorrow.

Duckman

No point in transferring the funds for a purchase tomorrow unless your future self has already come back and told you tomorow is the day to buy....in which case I'll buy them in my own account.

 

[nulla nulla]

Your future self didn't happen to mention the exit price by any chance?

 

[IFocus]

Interesting thought, IFocus. However, although Labor won the 2007 election, they dumped the PM who won it. The new guard apparently didn't cut it.

The next "new guard" PM didn't manage to win a 2nd term in her own right and also lost many seats in the process despite 2nd terms being historically a given to the incumbent.

Sure, it got labor into power, However, it doesn't give me a lot of confidence to look for a "new guard" in the coalition when watching how labor's "new guard" has been quite a spectacle, to say the least.

Rudd was and possible still is the smartest MP in both houses by a mile and some.
Of course most here would focus on spin, fact is he has no peers as some one who can talk across any policy you care to mention understand the detail and give a fairly decent appraisal without dragging in politics.

But he lost the plot in terms of leader a loss I think to Australia and of course the Labor party.

This came about as a result of his own behavior towards fellow labor MPs his abuse is well reported. he wasn't actually deposed by the faceless men (faction brokers) as many like to disparage they actually don't wield that sort of power.

He was removed simply by normal Labor MPs saying yes they would vote against Rudd when approached remember the front bench didn't know this was happening they were not involved.

The whole move is unprecedented in Labors history and is well described in Barrie Cassidy new book The Party Thieves

better description here http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...act-of-bastardry/story-fn59niix-1225939384875

As for the Gillard government regardless of Abbott's rubbish comments with Alan Joke Jones its holds the majority of seats in the lower house and is a legitimate government of Australia.

If you look across the Labor front bench there is real talent that all speak on their own to the media unlike the opposition.

Full Gillard Government Ministry:

Prime Minister: Julia Gillard
Deputy Prime Minister and Treasurer: Wayne Swan
Foreign Affairs: Kevin Rudd
Jobs, Skills and Workplace Relations: Chris Evans
Regional Australia, Regional Development and Local Government, Arts: Simon Crean
Defence: Stephen Smith
Health and Ageing: Nicola Roxon
Families, Housing, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs: Jenny Macklin
Infrastructure and Transport: Anthony Albanese
Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy: Stephen Conroy
Innovation, Industry and Science: Kim Carr
Finance and Deregulation: Penny Wong
Schools, Early Childhood and Youth: Peter Garrett
Attorney-General: Robert McClelland
Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: Joe Ludwig
Sustainable Population, Communities, Environment and Water: Tony Burke
Resources, Energy and Tourism: Martin Ferguson
Immigration and Citizenship: Chris Bowen
Trade: Craig Emerson
Climate Change and Energy Efficiency: Greg Combet

Outer ministry:
Human Services, Social Inclusion: Tanya Plibersek
Home Affairs and Justice, Privacy and FOI: Brendan O'Connor
Employment Participation and Childcare: Kate Ellis
Indigenous Employment and Economic Development, Sport, Social Housing and Homelessness: Mark Arbib.
Small Business, Assistant Minister for Tourism: Nick Sherry
Veterans Affairs and Defence Science and Personnel: Warren Snowdon
Assistant Treasurer, Financial Services and Superannuation: Bill Shorten
Mental Health and Ageing: Mark Butler
Special Minister of State: Gary Gray
Defence Materiel: Jason Clare


Its actually quite a strong team totally unmatched by the Coalition IMHO

 

[moXJO]

Full Gillard Government Ministry:

Prime Minister: Julia Gillard
Deputy Prime Minister and Treasurer: Wayne Swan
Foreign Affairs: Kevin Rudd
Jobs, Skills and Workplace Relations: Chris Evans
Regional Australia, Regional Development and Local Government, Arts: Simon Crean
Defence: Stephen Smith
Health and Ageing: Nicola Roxon
Families, Housing, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs: Jenny Macklin
Infrastructure and Transport: Anthony Albanese
Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy: Stephen Conroy
Innovation, Industry and Science: Kim Carr
Finance and Deregulation: Penny Wong
Schools, Early Childhood and Youth: Peter Garrett
Attorney-General: Robert McClelland
Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: Joe Ludwig
Sustainable Population, Communities, Environment and Water: Tony Burke
Resources, Energy and Tourism: Martin Ferguson
Immigration and Citizenship: Chris Bowen
Trade: Craig Emerson
Climate Change and Energy Efficiency: Greg Combet

Outer ministry:
Human Services, Social Inclusion: Tanya Plibersek
Home Affairs and Justice, Privacy and FOI: Brendan O'Connor
Employment Participation and Childcare: Kate Ellis
Indigenous Employment and Economic Development, Sport, Social Housing and Homelessness: Mark Arbib.
Small Business, Assistant Minister for Tourism: Nick Sherry
Veterans Affairs and Defence Science and Personnel: Warren Snowdon
Assistant Treasurer, Financial Services and Superannuation: Bill Shorten
Mental Health and Ageing: Mark Butler
Special Minister of State: Gary Gray
Defence Materiel: Jason Clare


Its actually quite a strong team totally unmatched by the Coalition IMHO

And out of all of them I wonder if many have run a business, or had a real job?

 

[todster]

And out of all of them I wonder if many have run a business, or had a real job?[/QUOTE




Like John Howard?

 

[Julia]

Rudd was and possible still is the smartest MP in both houses by a mile and some.

That depends on how you would define 'smart'.
I didn't find him smart at all.

He lacked the capacity to build relationships which is absolutely fundamental in politics.

He lacked the ability to communicate with pretty much everyone, his own MP's and the general public alike.

He was all about rhetoric and noble sounding statements but totally lacked the ability to follow up in any practical sense.

Of course most here would focus on spin,

That's a bit insulting, and unworthy of you. Why would you suggest your peers on ASF are any less discerning of spin than you are?
I'd actually suggest many of us are much less taken in by party spin than you are. Some of us retain objectivity about both parties, rather than a slavish adherence to just one.

Kevin Rudd, with his amazing capacity for double speak/incomprehensible responses to questions, would pretty much take the cake for spin imo.

But, no, on second thoughts, Wayne Swan way outdoes him on this.

fact is he has no peers as some one who can talk across any policy you care to mention understand the detail and give a fairly decent appraisal without dragging in politics.

What??? Ifocus, have you been on something? Sure he can talk across anything at all, but shouldn't what he says make sense, and shouldn't his remarks be clear in the meaning, and shouldn't they respond to questions asked rather than obfuscation on top of obfuscation?

Without dragging in politics? !!!! What on earth has happened to the measure of objectivity you've displayed in recent weeks?
They all are totally about politics, and Mr Rudd was the absolute epitome of this when PM.

But he lost the plot in terms of leader a loss I think to Australia and of course the Labor party.

No argument that he well and truly lost the plot, but I'd say his demise is a relief to Australia, certainly not a loss.
I have only to hear him waxing on about something in his role as Foreign Minister, to be reminded of how much better Julia Gillard is.
And that is in no way any endorsement of approval for Ms Gillard.

Just was a shame to see Stephen Smith ousted to make way for Rudd's return. Mr Smith was always responsive to questions, reasonable in his approach, and imo has been badly used by the Labor Party.

He was removed simply by normal Labor MPs saying yes they would vote against Rudd when approached remember the front bench didn't know this was happening they were not involved.

Surely you can't seriously believe Mr Rudd was deposed without any consultation with his front bench?

As for the Gillard government regardless of Abbott's rubbish comments with Alan Joke Jones its holds the majority of seats in the lower house and is a legitimate government of Australia.

Hah, and that could change in a minute. It will only take a serious falling out with the Independents to completely turn the balance around.
I don't think the Independents at this stage have any interest in seeing this happen because it would make them look even sillier than they do now, but it's always a possibility, and as a result Ms Gillard will be even more reluctant to actually govern than she is now. So far she is coming across as a complete puppet leader.

If you look across the Labor front bench there is real talent that all speak on their own to the media unlike the opposition.

Nonsense. Various members of the Coalition speak personally to the media.

Fair enough that you'd want to ardently support your beloved Labor Party, IFocus, but for heaven's sake, let's have a bit of objectivity.

Or maybe that's just quite unfair of me and you really do believe they are all you describe.