To breed, or not to breed?

[ojm]

Geeze, everyone has missed the most obvious reason. The Baby Bonus!

Go down to Frankston or similar, and ask one of the 18 year old mothers who already have two kids. Why did they have kids? For the $5,000 to buy a new HD LCD and 18" wheels for the car!

 

[gooner]

Geeze, everyone has missed the most obvious reason. The Baby Bonus!

Go down to Frankston or similar, and ask one of the 18 year old mothers who already have two kids. Why did they have kids? For the $5,000 to buy a new HD LCD and 18" wheels for the car!

Talkback radio garbage I suspect. No one in their right mine would have an extra kid because of $5k. Government now pays it in fortnightly instalments because of the chatter about it being blown on mag wheels and new plasmas.

 

[Julia]

Was that "not so smart" jibe aimed at me?

I can't speak for Harleyquin, gooner, but for what it's worth, I'd say you'd be one of the best parents going. Pretty lucky kids to have you as a dad, imo.

Interesting discussion.

I've always wanted to have ONE kid by the time I'm 35 but only one.

What are peoples perspectives on number of children to breed? I notice those who have kids here have >2. Do people think its selfish to only have one kid? i.e. so the child grows up as an only child?

I have a younger sister my self, and a lot of the time I wish I was an only child...

I can comment on this from the point of view of having been an only child.
Didn't miss having siblings, but had lots of friends.
Disadvantages are that the responsibility for achieving your parents' ambitions falls entirely on the only child and the pressure to succeed can be overwhelming.

The obvious advantage is that you get the benefit of all the parental guidance and attention/teaching.

I don't think the 'little Emperor' syndrome has to occur. If anything, the demands made on an only child in terms of study expectations, success at extra-curricular activities etc can mean the only child is under a lot more pressure than a child with siblings.

There is often an expectation that only children will be less co-operative in group activities than those with siblings. My own experience has been to the contrary: am not competitive on the whole and strongly believe in co-operative and collaborative action achieving the best ends.

I'd be interested to hear from other only children who have had a different experience.

Geeze, everyone has missed the most obvious reason. The Baby Bonus!

Go down to Frankston or similar, and ask one of the 18 year old mothers who already have two kids. Why did they have kids? For the $5,000 to buy a new HD LCD and 18" wheels for the car!

Talkback radio garbage I suspect. No one in their right mine would have an extra kid because of $5k. Government now pays it in fortnightly instalments because of the chatter about it being blown on mag wheels and new plasmas.

Actually, gooner, the reason it's now paid in instalments is because of the reality of the suggestion it was being spent on plasmas etc. No, you wouldn't do that, but I can assure you there's a whole section of our society who did indeed regard the baby bonus as as a good reason to get pregnant.
It wasn't at all talkback radio garbage, but cold reality.

 

[Kipp]

Re: To breed, or not to breed

Western populations are shrinking. Abortion, lifestyle "choices" etc have guaranteed our extinction unless we turn that around and start breeding again. And I can't see that happening, unless there's a complete moral 180 in this society. The family unit, no matter what you may think of it, is the perfect container for raising kids. And before anyone raises the issue, I'm talking about heterosexual couples that are in a committed relationship. I assume you all had parents?

And...guess which populations are exploding?

OMG.... western populations are SHIRNKING!!!! We are facing EXTINCTION!!!

Lol.... are you kidding me fishbulb? At the turn of the end of the 19th Century there were around 1.5 billion on the planet, and at the end of the 20th, around 6 Billion. That makes us the most populous mammal by about.... I don't know 100 , 1000 times?
And if you want to talk about Western populations Australia had 7million when my father was born. To contemplate our extinction through lack of breeding is a very odd concept, and I'm sure meant only to stir...

This of course brings me to one of my own little *rants* on childbirth... the pros and cons. In my view, the world is full. Actually, probably about 230-500% full (i.e. I would prefer it with a population of around 1-3bill). It seems to be a frequently overlooked aspect of environmenta issues, for all that world governments discuss CO2 emissions, peak oil, deforestation and bloody whales. Population growth rarely features in any debate.

The only "humane"way to achieve a lower population is by reducing our birthrates. The alternatives- famine, disease, war, natural disaster... will achieve the same ends, but not my preference!!! So if that means 1 or 0 children each for the next 3-4 generations.... well, as it has been mentioned by many others in this thread you can still lead a full life without parenthood (though I mean no disrespect to parents by this comment).

Em... I think that's enough from me for now.

 

[Kipp]

Geeze, everyone has missed the most obvious reason. The Baby Bonus!

Go down to Frankston or similar, and ask one of the 18 year old mothers who already have two kids. Why did they have kids? For the $5,000 to buy a new HD LCD and 18" wheels for the car!

Yep.... that is the real reason I'm discouraging breeding... I am missing out on all that $$$!!! What's worse, is I have nearly 0 interest in owning my own home, so that's another $20K that is going to these suburban breeders. C'mon Ruddy, introduce a new stimulus package that might offer me some benefit.
Emm... Vegetarian Bonus? International holiday stimulus package....

 

[Vizion]

All I can say is that I had no real wish to, but now at 42 that I have (1 week ago) it has changed my outlook on life in a profound way.

Having kids is for some a selfish thing and for some it's an urge that cannot be denied. Some have no interest at all. If you do or don't feel like being a father or mother, fine & dandy, no argument from me either way. It's an individuals choice.

An observation though, to say your not interested and then throw up "overpopulation" as a considered reason not to "it never features in discussions about environmental issues" I wonder if you have extended you line of thought any further along?

After all a couple living in a house is more wasteful of the planets resources than a family is. Logically, after we have taken the step to limit childbirth. We should make all the single people & couples live in smaller houses only, or make then share housing. Extend that a little further, are you also advocating a forced allowance of fuels to burn, food to eat and air to breathe?

You open up a Pandora's box with comments about population control, since in Australia we have an ageing population and actually require more children not less. Maybe we could have a children's trading scheme? We could then spread the human race about a bit. Of course there are a few here that balk at having "our" country filled up with "non Australians"

Half the people I have met that have been for forced population control are only meaning "outside of this country". That's not called environmentalism.

 

[Mr J]

Re: To breed, or not to breed

OMG.... western populations are SHIRNKING!!!! We are facing EXTINCTION!!!

Lol.... are you kidding me fishbulb?

Birthrates in the West over recent decades aren't high enough to maintain current population levels, and though I think it has picked up in recent years, it's still not high enough. Women have to average 2.1 children each to maintain the level, while it's still less than 2.

and I'm sure meant only to stir..

No, it's a fact. It's extremely unlikely that it would come to that, but the recent birthrates can't be ignored.

Something that is being ignored is the probability of many people currently alive living for much longer than humans have previously. If civilisation remains relatively stable, there will likely be major technological advances, and the longer we live the slower we will have to reproduce.

since in Australia we have an ageing population

Which will become less and less of an issue if and once technology filters through, in terms of automation of many jobs, and medical treatment of aging.

 

[Julia]

Re: To breed, or not to breed

Which will become less and less of an issue if and once technology filters through, in terms of automation of many jobs, and medical treatment of aging.

Can you explain why? If we have more aged people, fewer people working because of automation, where is the tax base coming from to support and provide medical care for this extensive aged population?

 

[gooner]

I can't speak for Harleyquin, gooner, but for what it's worth, I'd say you'd be one of the best parents going. Pretty lucky kids to have you as a dad, imo.

Actually, gooner, the reason it's now paid in instalments is because of the reality of the suggestion it was being spent on plasmas etc. No, you wouldn't do that, but I can assure you there's a whole section of our society who did indeed regard the baby bonus as as a good reason to get pregnant.
It wasn't at all talkback radio garbage, but cold reality.

"Best parents going". Thanks But doubt my 2 year old, currently throwing yet another tantrum would agree - a few minutes time out works wonders and he comes out with a big smily face.

Understand that some people will splash out on TV's etc, but talkback also suggested the 5,000 was the reason for having a baby in the first place. That is what I find far-fetched rather than what the money is spent on.

 

[Mr J]

Re: To breed, or not to breed

Can you explain why? If we have more aged people, fewer people working because of automation, where is the tax base coming from to support and provide medical care for this extensive aged population?

Well, in a more advanced civilisation, what we would consider "aged" could be far older than what we consider it to be today. I'm sure this sounds far-fetched to some, but consider how far we've advanced in the last 100 or so years, and then consider how much we may advance in the next 50. Consider that we can already clone animals, and then apply more advanced, related technology to ourselves.

I think a far more important issue is automation, with advanced computers, robotics etc, which would render many current jobs obsolete. Interesting times ahead.

 

[Agentm]

I have always been fascinated by the reasoning people go through before they decide to have children. From a very young age, actually I was 8 and can distinctly remember the moment, I realised having kids was not for me. Since then I have wondered what it was that made people invite such drastic and irreversible change into their lives. Are women still pressured by society? Do men feel a foreboding sense of mortality as they mature and think it is somehow important they leave a physical mark on the world?
For the life of me I can't work it out, which is no slight on people who have families mind you, just a mystery I feel i will never concoct a suitable answer to.
Not that I actually spend much time these days analysing the motivations of people, but with a few of my work colleagues and one of my friends either recently having, or imminently about to have, offspring I thought it would be interesting to hear from both sides of the fence. What were your reasons and what are your objections?

thanks

riddick

i have seen how traumatic life was for you, both in pitch black and in the chronicles of riddick.

i think if you had a few more hugs you could have chosen a different path and not ended up a hardened killer..

i think you should consider children as we need sequels big time in the future as well

btw i hear theres talk with twohy of of more adventures from you in the near future..

 

[Julia]

Re: To breed, or not to breed

"

Understand that some people will splash out on TV's etc, but talkback also suggested the 5,000 was the reason for having a baby in the first place. That is what I find far-fetched rather than what the money is spent on.

I promise you that some young women I've spoken with were thrilled and delighted at the notion that they could get $5K for having a child.
These were kids who had never had a job, never had any money, and saw that much as an incredible sum and the answer to all their debt problems.

Well, in a more advanced civilisation, what we would consider "aged" could be far older than what we consider it to be today. I'm sure this sounds far-fetched to some, but consider how far we've advanced in the last 100 or so years, and then consider how much we may advance in the next 50. Consider that we can already clone animals, and then apply more advanced, related technology to ourselves.

I think a far more important issue is automation, with advanced computers, robotics etc, which would render many current jobs obsolete. Interesting times ahead.

Yes, I get the advanced capacity to extend life etc., but you haven't answered my question (indeed have underlined it) about how if fewer people are working where is the tax base coming from to support all these additional aged people?

 

[awg]

Here are some observations from a parent of 3 teenagers.

* 30 to 50% of conceptions are unplanned, from talking to other parents..Google it if u dont believe me.

* most women I know have a strong biological urge/imperative to breed by their late 30s. Men can wait a bit longer, but the bug often bites them.

*older children are very expensive, with the way Social Security is now, you effectivly have to support them until they are 25, if they go to Uni, and have not established official independence.

*teenagers act like over 18s..they cannot be stopped, it is impossible to control them if they dont accept control, many forms of discipline are now illegal.

* the baby bonus is a big incentive to young couples of a certain ilk.

* Not having children is a valid and logical alternative IMO, due to environmental, social and financial concerns.

I am always careful if discussing this matter, as most childless couples,
that I know, have fertility problems, much to their distress.
Many single, seperated or divorced persons also wish they had kids, but dont, for many reasons.

* I am of the opinion that having children has expanded my world greatly for many reasons, its complex and hard to explain.

* If you choose not to have children, my observation, is that it is difficult to avoid a selfish attitude, this is entirely understandable, but not wholly desirable. Of course, this is a generalisation, and can be mitigated, but it is what I have seen. No offence intended to anyone that makes that choice.

Loneliness also seems to be a difficult issue for childless persons

 

[Knobby22]

Here are some observations from a parent of 3 teenagers.

* 30 to 50% of conceptions are unplanned, from talking to other parents..Google it if u dont believe me.

* most women I know have a strong biological urge/imperative to breed by their late 30s. Men can wait a bit longer, but the bug often bites them.

*older children are very expensive, with the way Social Security is now, you effectivly have to support them until they are 25, if they go to Uni, and have not established official independence.

*teenagers act like over 18s..they cannot be stopped, it is impossible to control them if they dont accept control, many forms of discipline are now illegal.

* the baby bonus is a big incentive to young couples of a certain ilk.

* Not having children is a valid and logical alternative IMO, due to environmental, social and financial concerns.

I am always careful if discussing this matter, as most childless couples,
that I know, have fertility problems, much to their distress.
Many single, seperated or divorced persons also wish they had kids, but dont, for many reasons.

* I am of the opinion that having children has expanded my world greatly for many reasons, its complex and hard to explain.

* If you choose not to have children, my observation, is that it is difficult to avoid a selfish attitude, this is entirely understandable, but not wholly desirable. Of course, this is a generalisation, and can be mitigated, but it is what I have seen. No offence intended to anyone that makes that choice.

Loneliness also seems to be a difficult issue for childless persons

Great post AWG!

 

[Agentm]

Here are some observations from a parent of 3 teenagers.

* 30 to 50% of conceptions are unplanned, from talking to other parents..Google it if u dont believe me.

* most women I know have a strong biological urge/imperative to breed by their late 30s. Men can wait a bit longer, but the bug often bites them.

*older children are very expensive, with the way Social Security is now, you effectivly have to support them until they are 25, if they go to Uni, and have not established official independence.

*teenagers act like over 18s..they cannot be stopped, it is impossible to control them if they dont accept control, many forms of discipline are now illegal.

* the baby bonus is a big incentive to young couples of a certain ilk.

* Not having children is a valid and logical alternative IMO, due to environmental, social and financial concerns.

I am always careful if discussing this matter, as most childless couples,
that I know, have fertility problems, much to their distress.
Many single, seperated or divorced persons also wish they had kids, but dont, for many reasons.

* I am of the opinion that having children has expanded my world greatly for many reasons, its complex and hard to explain.

* If you choose not to have children, my observation, is that it is difficult to avoid a selfish attitude, this is entirely understandable, but not wholly desirable. Of course, this is a generalisation, and can be mitigated, but it is what I have seen. No offence intended to anyone that makes that choice.

Loneliness also seems to be a difficult issue for childless persons

non paternity is another issue.

plenty of those breeders out there are knocking of anything to get knocked up. enough for it to be as high as 10% of first borners are not from the dad they know..

some women may have a mad keen desire to get pregnant to save a marriage or to keep a marriage going..

children should be born then removed from parents then balloted out to those who want them

that way the desires in women to get pregnant are properly addressed

the desires in men to get a woman pregnant are addressed

and those who actually want children can have them and will do a damn sight better job perhaps than those who are simply doin it for a grant, or for some other self interest..

 

[Fishbulb]

Re: To breed, or not to breed

OMG.... western populations are SHIRNKING!!!! We are facing EXTINCTION!!!

Lol.... are you kidding me fishbulb? At the turn of the end of the 19th Century there were around 1.5 billion on the planet, and at the end of the 20th, around 6 Billion. That makes us the most populous mammal by about.... I don't know 100 , 1000 times?
And if you want to talk about Western populations Australia had 7million when my father was born. To contemplate our extinction through lack of breeding is a very odd concept, and I'm sure meant only to stir...

This of course brings me to one of my own little *rants* on childbirth... the pros and cons. In my view, the world is full. Actually, probably about 230-500% full (i.e. I would prefer it with a population of around 1-3bill). It seems to be a frequently overlooked aspect of environmenta issues, for all that world governments discuss CO2 emissions, peak oil, deforestation and bloody whales. Population growth rarely features in any debate.

The only "humane"way to achieve a lower population is by reducing our birthrates. The alternatives- famine, disease, war, natural disaster... will achieve the same ends, but not my preference!!! So if that means 1 or 0 children each for the next 3-4 generations.... well, as it has been mentioned by many others in this thread you can still lead a full life without parenthood (though I mean no disrespect to parents by this comment).

Em... I think that's enough from me for now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_decline

http://www.fpri.org/ww/0505.200407.eberstadt.demography.html

 

[Knobby22]

non paternity is another issue.

plenty of those breeders out there are knocking of anything to get knocked up. enough for it to be as high as 10% of first borners are not from the dad they know..

some women may have a mad keen desire to get pregnant to save a marriage or to keep a marriage going..

children should be born then removed from parents then balloted out to those who want them

that way the desires in women to get pregnant are properly addressed

the desires in men to get a woman pregnant are addressed

and those who actually want children can have them and will do a damn sight better job perhaps than those who are simply doin it for a grant, or for some other self interest..

You should read Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World". One of the great novels of all time.

 

[awg]

The whole business can become a scary topic when you have teenagers of yr own.

When you consider certain aspects of fertility, gives pause for thought.

Failure rate of contraception is higher than one would want, even for commonly used methods of contraceptive pill or condoms.

Multiply that by X intercourse, and the percentage risk of unplanned conception alarming.

My partner has done counselling on fertility issues, and she is astonished at the low level of detailed knowledge possessed by the general populace.

Had to tell my lads, if a girl ever initiates sex, means she is very likely fertile, so be careful. ( studies confirm this)

All-in-all, if you avoid breeding, you have accomplished quite a feat of mind over nature.

as to the 10% non-paternity, I have heard slightly lower, but consistent figures worldwide...makes it easier to understand jeaulosy

 

[Julia]

* If you choose not to have children, my observation, is that it is difficult to avoid a selfish attitude, this is entirely understandable, but not wholly desirable. Of course, this is a generalisation, and can be mitigated, but it is what I have seen. No offence intended to anyone that makes that choice.

Can you explain what you mean when you suggest people who choose not to have children (may) have a selfish attitude?
In what way?
Some examples?

Loneliness also seems to be a difficult issue for childless persons

Having children is no guarantee against loneliness. A psychologist I know says it takes four daughters (daughters, mind you, not just 4 children), to ensure you won't end up in a nursing home when you're old and infirm.

I'm sure your children are terrific, awg, but there are plenty of instances where parents find the lack of interest or care from their adult children very hurtful and disappointing.

 

[awg]

Can you explain what you mean when you suggest people who choose not to have children (may) have a selfish attitude?
In what way?

As I noted, it is a generalisation based on my observations:

but in order to answer, I think most humans are inherently selfish, and that trait is magnified if allowed to prosper. If one is in the position to dwell on the self, one naturally will.

Having children forces the individual, (willingly or not), to cater to the needs of others.

This is not to say that persons who do not have children cant do this, as evidenced by so many examples, ie Mother Teresa.

My observation only, most tend not too.

It is certainly something I think all parents have to wrestle with, the conflict of self interest vs child needs. Many dont go too well.

Especially for new mothers the burden is awesome.

These are gross simplifications of a complex issue, pls forgive.

Some examples?

I could, but would prefer not to, but I would be interested to hear your opinion based upon your thoughts of the people you know, as a whole.

Having children is no guarantee against loneliness. A psychologist I know says it takes four daughters (daughters, mind you, not just 4 children), to ensure you won't end up in a nursing home when you're old and infirm.

Yes, I agree, but it does reduce the odds

I'm sure your children are terrific, awg, but there are plenty of instances where parents find the lack of interest or care from their adult children very hurtful and disappointing.

very true, they can hurt you, and you must share their pain and disappointments too, that is part of the complexity.