The West has lost its freedom of speech

[Value Collector]

We are still fighting overseas now, who are they fighting against, remind me?
How many Christians are being slaughtered, do we see it on our news?

Religion of all types is causing problems around the world, The Christian faith is not immune, when you cherish your religious dogma more than you cherish people, rational thought and evidence, you can be capable of doing nasty things to other humans or bringing in terrible laws that violate human rights, Biblical teachings have and are still causing lots of needless suffering.

All I ask is that people push the silly religious texts aside, so their is room for rational debate and embracing life and reality for what it is, not a hocus pocus bronze age superstitious nonsense version.

 

[Tink]

Here, if you didn't know

Islamic State (IS) is a radical Islamist group that has seized large swathes of territory in eastern Syria and across northern and western Iraq.

Its brutal tactics - including mass killings and abductions of members of religious and ethnic minorities, as well as the beheadings of soldiers and journalists - have sparked fear and outrage across the world and prompted US military intervention.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29052144

 

[Value Collector]

Here, if you didn't know

Islamic State (IS) is a radical Islamist group that has seized large swathes of territory in eastern Syria and across northern and western Iraq.

Its brutal tactics - including mass killings and abductions of members of religious and ethnic minorities, as well as the beheadings of soldiers and journalists - have sparked fear and outrage across the world and prompted US military intervention.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29052144

Yes I am well aware of ISIS.

What is your point, I can provide a lot of examples of other religions including yours that have caused terrible things against humanity, If your point is "Atleast we are not as bad as ISIS" I think that's a pretty silly way of looking at it.

ISIS highlights my point exactly, when ever you through rationality to the wind in favour of a religious text, you can do some really terrible things, we need to move further and further away from the religious texts and closer to rational thought based on evidence to end these terrible things.

To the point that your brand of religion (atleast in the developed world) is no longer publicly killing people, is because you have at least enough rational thought to ignore those parts of the bible. Your religion is still causing bad things.

 

[SirRumpole]

To the point that your brand of religion (atleast in the developed world) is no longer publicly killing people, is because you have at least enough rational thought to ignore those parts of the bible. Your religion is still causing bad things.

So, can you point out any reason why Christianity seems to have moved past the Middle Ages while Islam seems stuck in Medieval times and what if anything we can do about it ?

It seems that only when you have separation of Church and State that you can at least have a secular society in which free thought can at least have a chance of overcoming dogma.

Seems to me that only by overthrowing the Islamic tyrants can we be free of this scourge, and no one seems willing to declare war on Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and other infestations of repression.

So I think we are stuck with them, unless they give the free world a reasonable excuse to wipe them all out, like Hitler did.

 

[Value Collector]

So, can you point out any reason why Christianity seems to have moved past the Middle Ages while Islam seems stuck in Medieval times and what if anything we can do about it ?

Remember, has moved on in the developed world (though sometimes it does slip in areas), However throughout Africa and other underdeveloped superstitious parts of the world human rights abuses still occur due to bible teachings.

It seems that only when you have separation of Church and State that you can at least have a secular society in which free thought can at least have a chance of overcoming dogma.

Seems to me that only by overthrowing the Islamic tyrants can we be free of this scourge, and no one seems willing to declare war on Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and other infestations of repression.

I agree, public discussion must be allowed to over come the nonsense, when anyone that speaks out against a text can be charged with blasphemy, progress halts.

In the developed world, the principle of religious freedom gave rise to the possibility of secular society, allowing people to follow what ever faith they wanted choked the major brands of a lot of their power and influence, and paved the way for free thinkers to realise it's all BS.



.

 

[luutzu]

So, can you point out any reason why Christianity seems to have moved past the Middle Ages while Islam seems stuck in Medieval times and what if anything we can do about it ?

It seems that only when you have separation of Church and State that you can at least have a secular society in which free thought can at least have a chance of overcoming dogma.

Seems to me that only by overthrowing the Islamic tyrants can we be free of this scourge, and no one seems willing to declare war on Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and other infestations of repression.

So I think we are stuck with them, unless they give the free world a reasonable excuse to wipe them all out, like Hitler did.

Christianity hasn't really moved beyond the bad old days. No religion really has. Just the followers might choose not to take everything literally. And they do that when they're exposed to some scientific ways of thinking or live under a gov't that does not persecute and chop their heads off for thinking different.

With regards to the ME and its Islamic despots and tyrants... like everywhere else there will always be people who want money and power... and if that can be gained from pretending you're pious and is one with god, then that's fine - turn up to the Mosque everyday... if that power is gained because a superpower backs you, then that's even better because while God is great, a couple of aircraft carriers and its battle group nearby is even greater.

It's nothing to do with Islam or Arab culture... you'll find all corrupt and power hungry people everywhere.. .just as you will find good and decent leaders and people among all walks of life too.

So in our democracy, we find politicians hanging with the people, visiting schools and factories, walk among the people and the cameras... and it's always around election time. Then during those 3 or 4 years... merrghhh... Got Murdoch and Packer to please else the old man start tweeting nasty stuff again.

 

[Value Collector]

Christianity hasn't really moved beyond the bad old days. No religion really has. Just the followers might choose not to take everything literally. And they do that when they're exposed to some scientific ways of thinking or live under a gov't that does not persecute and chop their heads off for thinking different.

Good point, I think if you put most of the religious folk on this thread back to a pre scientific age, they may well be happy to blame an earth quake or a drought on having heathens like me among society, I doubt they would hesitate to drag me out and burn me alive to get back on side with their imaginary friend.

Even in recent years, some big time American TV religious charlatans have blamed natural disasters on America becoming to gay friendly.

 

[SirRumpole]

Good point, I think if you put most of the religious folk on this thread back to a pre scientific age, they may well be happy to blame an earth quake or a drought on having heathens like me among society, I doubt they would hesitate to drag me out and burn me alive to get back on side with their imaginary friend.

I hope that is tongue in cheek, because it's rubbish and I think you know it. The real religious ratbags don't even bother to go on forums like this, because they only preach to the already converted as it's too hard for them to present a reasoned argument.

Even in recent years, some big time American TV religious charlatans have blamed natural disasters on America becoming to gay friendly.

And it only shows what fools they are.

 

[Value Collector]

I hope that is tongue in cheek, because it's rubbish and I think you know it. The real religious ratbags don't even bother to go on forums like this, because they only preach to the already converted as it's too hard for them to present a reasoned argument.

It's not tongue in cheek, but I think you have got me wrong. I am talking about if a person like Pav or Tink or any other person who has bought into this nonsense even in the scientific era, grew up in the pre scientific era (before forums), they would easily buy into their religious leaders who preached that heathens like you and I should be killed.

Pav especially has already shown we some of his comments his religious ideas influence him enough to allow him to discriminate against minority groups, and that's in this day and age, imagine how that would be amplified in the superstitious times of 700 years ago.

And it only shows what fools they are.

enough people listen to them to make them millionaires.

Listen to this fool, his opinions remind me of some of our discussions with Pav.

 

[Tink]

Where does science come from, VC?

Like I said, you atheists are like rebellious children.

No respect for their parents

 

[Value Collector]

Where does science come from, VC?

Not from the bible, that's for sure. Science developed over a long time, the Greeks and the Arabs made some early inroads into the development of scientific reasoning and investigation, but the scientific method was refined over a long period of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_scientific_method

Like I said, you atheists are like rebellious children.

No respect for their parents

not sure what you mean by that.

I respect people, I disrespect silly ideas.

 

[Tink]

Well it came from religion, hence the parents/children.

 

[SirRumpole]

Well it came from religion, hence the parents/children.

Galileo might disagree


I really don't see why people need to carry the baggage of religion if they want to believe in God. Blind Faith is just that, blind and the reverence being given to men of the cloth is being sorely tested by the exposure of pretty horrible things that some of them got up to.

Surely is possible to believe in a life hereafter with cowtowing to the religious superstitions of past centuries ?

 

[Tink]

You don't have to be attached to a religion to believe in God, Rumpole, that is your choice.

Just as it's my choice to be involved.

I was just stating where science started, that is all.

 

[Value Collector]

Well it came from religion, hence the parents/children.

Which religion?

I think you are a bit confused there, offcourse some people who practice science had religions, but religion didn't invent the scientific method, and when these early scientists came to conclusions that went against the established religion, they were often threatened, imprisond or killed.

I mean Charles Darwin was religious early in life, but you can hardly say the religion helped him develop or support the theory of evolution, many religions to this day strongly oppose the concept.

 

[bellenuit]

Which religion?

I think you are a bit confused there, offcourse some people who practice science had religions, but religion didn't invent the scientific method, and when these early scientists came to conclusions that went against the established religion, they were often threatened, imprisond or killed.

I mean Charles Darwin was religious early in life, but you can hardly say the religion helped him develop or support the theory of evolution, many religions to this day strongly oppose the concept.

I have to agree there. I had an argument on a different forum (US based) about Islam's contribution to science. Like you, I failed to see what Islam, the religion, contributed. Undoubtably there were many Muslim scholars that made huge contributions to Maths and Astronomy during Islam's heyday, but nothing that was added to scientific knowledge was the result of the religion itself. The Quran and Hadith haven't contributed a single shred of additional scientific knowledge that wasn't already patently obvious to even uneducated people of that day. The best that could be said is that Islam in its heyday created an environment that allowed scientific knowledge to flourish, just as Islam in the last several centuries created an environment that hampered scientific endeavour. Islam only helped by not being an obstacle to scientific enquiry or discovery, but it itself added nothing.

The same could be said about Christianity. There are many eminent scientists who are and were Christians, but what have the holy texts of Christianity revealed that was not otherwise known. One would think that if the Bible was indirectly on directly the work of a deity, that there would be something it would have added to our knowledge of the universe. But can anyone name any piece of scientific knowledge that is known or was first known due to some revelation in the Bible.

At best we can attribute some of our scientific knowledge to the promotion of education by Christian leaders, but it was the fruits of the educated mind that yielded the results. The texts and dogmas of religion have never promoted enquiry, but there are countless examples where they deem enquiry to be evil and to be avoided.

 

[Tink]

Well to put it bluntly, no Catholic Church, no scientific method.

That is where it started.

In the monasteries.

 

[dutchie]

Well to put it bluntly, no Catholic Church, no scientific method.

That is where it started.

In the monasteries.

And here I was thinking that it had started in the caves.

"Look, I have, through scientific methods, discovered fire!"

 

[Tisme]

Well to put it bluntly, no Catholic Church, no scientific method.

That is where it started.

In the monasteries.

I'm not sure that the Catholic Church was a catalyst nor nursery for modern science. From my own postulation, I suspect ideas wouldn't see the light of day unless it was wrapped and tied in Catholicism or Anglicanism. I think Newton was a classic example of monastic style servitude to the church, but a thirst for knowledge (I guess big bangs didn't matter much to maths and physics back then).

I am rather confused on some of the previous posts, especially from VC. Is there any chance, VC, of a short summary of what you are standing up for; secularism, anti religion, denial of Islamic predilection in Arab culture? From what I'm reading you seem to be demanding individuals be evaluated rather than the tribes they belong to, which is very noble, but surely Islam and Judaism are so entwined in the tribal culture they can't be unravelled?

 

[Value Collector]

I am rather confused on some of the previous posts, especially from VC. Is there any chance, VC, of a short summary of what you are standing up for; secularism, anti religion, denial of Islamic predilection in Arab culture? From what I'm reading you seem to be demanding individuals be evaluated rather than the tribes they belong to, which is very noble, but surely Islam and Judaism are so entwined in the tribal culture they can't be unravelled?

I am a passionate atheist, as I believe religions nonsense has many bad side effects, and I believe accepting reality on realities terms and dumping superstition leads to a better life, how ever I am also strongly pro religious freedom, because the libertarian side of me believes people should be able to do what they like provided it isn't harming anyone of infringing on the rights of others, I also understand that a culture of religious freedom is what protects atheists like me from the penalties I would have faced in countries without religious freedom.

I am also against racism, or any type of stereotyping that attempts to judge people based on race, sex, religion, etc. Any time to lump whole groups together and make judgements on the whole group, you are going to be doing an injustice to some members in that group.

I get your confusion, you see some anti religious comments, and assume I must be a Muslim hating guy that wants to ban religion, and won't mind stereotyping people, this is not correct.