The West has lost its freedom of speech

[Tisme]

Yeah, but I don't want to see tax payer's money going to slackers and bludgers who would rather appease a sky fairy than pitch in and have a crack at earning a living.

If the govt goes on the attack with the poor of our society, there are sufficient poor with a vote to change that govt. But I understand your lack of social conscience in some of our politicians.

 

[luutzu]

Yeah, but I don't want to see tax payer's money going to slackers and bludgers who would rather appease a sky fairy than pitch in and have a crack at earning a living.

If the govt goes on the attack with the poor of our society, there are sufficient poor with a vote to change that govt. But I understand your lack of social conscience in some of our politicians.

Nobody wants their tax dollars going to slackers and scammers, and I am sure there are cases where that does happen. But with the work for the dole and other safeguards in place, such crimes and abuse are not as widespread as it might seem from the papers.

And if you're referring to potential terrorists living off the dole, pray all day and plan all night for our destruction... I doubt that is ever the case. Terrorists, like all nasty criminals, are often your best neighbours and most law abiding citizens... they're the ones with real front jobs, pay and file all their taxes on time, and never call attention to themselves until they need to carry out their plans - like all those 911 terrorists did.

But like all solutions, especially ones that involves millions of cases... there are abuse and crimes in the system, we all know there have to be... but should we just cut it all off and deny everyone assistance or should we find ways to prevent abuse and bear the costs until it's minimised or eradicated because the program benefits much more those who genuinely needs it and deserves it.

Not only does helping your less fortunate citizens good for that national spirit, helping those temporarily down on their luck makes great economic sense. One is we help prevent further slide into poverty, illness and petty crimes... maybe help the family stay united with parents and children learning that in our society we look out for each other.. and who knows, those kids might grow up, do some useful things and remember things.

But if we're to deny the cheats and the terrorists from welfare by ending it completely... there's a recent case in the US where the father of six kids kill himself and all the kids because his marriage broke down, the wife left and tried as he did he couldn't put enough food on the table.

Contrast that to the $860 billion bailout, the further hundreds billion extra of practically zero interest loans to the wall street banks... all in hope that they start lending to small businesses or giving the little guys a bit of breathing room (so it's claimed)... Then those guys don't lend, gave themselves big bonuses with taxpayer's cash... and kick out default owners, leaving empty houses to rot and people homeless.


Yea there's a handful of politicians who make noise about it, who actually do care for the masses.. but, you know, money talks softly but people are all ears.

---

To Australia... The GP and uni fee hike don't fly... mainly because the rich also get sick and also send their kids to uni. So a rethink and the first to get it next are the Aborigines who "choose" to live in the wilderness for no good reason right? So why should taxpayers have to put up with that.

Then this show of cracking down on big corporations tax issues... I read the ATO is so serious about it they send a few case officers to about ten big corporations to audit. The other hundreds or so seems clean.

Then there's raising the GST and lowering corporate tax. So lower tax means higher corporate earnings, means higher profit for owners and shareholders, bigger bonuses for executives and management... and higher tax on spending will do wonders to household's budget.


So the West is losing its freedom of speech... but it's not from Muslims or the PC police or the Greens and weed smoking hippies.

 

[SirRumpole]

And if you're referring to potential terrorists living off the dole, pray all day and plan all night for our destruction... I doubt that is ever the case. Terrorists, like all nasty criminals, are often your best neighbours and most law abiding citizens... they're the ones with real front jobs, pay and file all their taxes on time, and never call attention to themselves until they need to carry out their plans - like all those 911 terrorists did.

You obviously haven't read about the Lindt Cafe lunatic.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-...onis-named-as-man-behind-sydney-siege/5969246

 

[Value Collector]

Yeah, but I don't want to see tax payer's money going to slackers and bludgers who would rather appease a sky fairy than pitch in and have a crack at earning a living.

If the govt goes on the attack with the poor of our society, there are sufficient poor with a vote to change that govt. But I understand your lack of social conscience in some of our politicians.

Some industries in Australia are forced to import labour because Aussies don't want to work, you won't find a shortage of true blue aussie bogans at the centre link office who rather drink Vb all day than get a job.

 

[SirRumpole]

Some industries in Australia are forced to import labour because Aussies don't want to work, you won't find a shortage of true blue aussie bogans at the centre link office who rather drink Vb all day than get a job.

Yes there are Aussie bogans around, and there are also employers who ignore our laws, pay workers under award payments and ignore safety rules. Those employers should be cracked down on , and I don't believe they are being so with sufficient force at present.

 

[luutzu]

You obviously haven't read about the Lindt Cafe lunatic.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-...onis-named-as-man-behind-sydney-siege/5969246

I read about it... If we define terrorism as violence carried out for political purposes or for a political cause... I don't think that qualifies.

Just saw some doco about Australia during the Great Depression. Very similar to what happened in the US... civil unrest, almost a communist revolution... So I don't think CentreLink will ever be cut... not because we care for the poor, just we'd rather not have a revolution.

Regarding nationalism, patriotism, loyalty... The American colonies revolted against their King because they don't like to be taxed - not because of religion or race; We Australian stuck around for a while longer, went to fight for the mother country all the way up to WW2 when we found that when the proverbial hits the fan we'd better grow up and fend for ourselves.

So talks about loyalty and patriotism because of blood and religion doesn't really hold up when it comes to the crunch. In the end, people will be loyal, will defend the country and the land because that country and that land is now their home, the home of their children... that they'd sacrifice so that their family and their people can survive. You make policies that demonise them or does not serve them and even if they're your twin brother they'd tell you where to go and what to do with your call for help.

It's all the rage with the American neocons and the Liberals here... All seem to worship Ayn Rand and her praise of selfishness and social Darwinism. If we want a loyal populace, we ought to follow Confucius and put the merchants at the lowest rank of society - merchants/capitalists are only ever loyal to one thing, and that's money. Like the Rothchilds funding both sides to any conflict - makes money either way.

But we often praise the wrong people, and encourage the wrong things. Like wishing Muslims to leave their faith and be like "us"... if a person could easily leave their god and abandon their culture like that, chances are they're not that loyal. That's why Jews and Muslims are probably the most loyal people you could hope to find because despite all the persecution and bad rap, they're still loyal to their faith. And now that their property, their family, their livelihood, their freedom is here in Australia...

 

[Tisme]

I think there is a bit of word gaming going on in this thread. We can easily observe the indolent imports in indolent sub communities. Of course there are home grown indolent 'burbs and yes there is an argument that the safety net reduces otherwise crime and throws a bone to third gen welfare families to break the nexus and get their kids into employment, etc, etc.

The bleeding obvious is that the formula for success anywhere in the world is for industry. Importing people who have no DNA for industry, not even agrarian and more interest in mind numbing slavishness to a made up excuse to do nothing diety is simply not a good fit. Add in the need to subjugate the family with threats of violence or retribution from the all powerful skylord and the disconnect between our secular society and their primitive paternal society becomes a gulf, with us paying to keep that gulf alive through a Centrelink bridge.

Why we are so keen to hand over our sovereignty to a bunch of no hopers escapes me. Why is notion that ethnic "community" leaders even given oxygen? WE are supposed to be a nation, not a ragtag union of disparate old world bigots who cling tenanciously to old world fantasies, old world hates and old world scores. We even use arguments like how Greeks or Italians enriched our eating habits, as if to unspeak of latent downsides we must not talk about, things like gratuitous industry and the propensity to work ....... migrant families who want to build bonds and legacy, not segregate.

 

[SirRumpole]

Very well said Tisme, my feelings exactly.

Immigration here must be on the basis of skills not family reunion or political correctness.

 

[Value Collector]

The bleeding obvious is that the formula for success anywhere in the world is for industry. Importing people who have no DNA for industry, not even agrarian .

My problem with your statement is that you seem to be writing off whole ethnic groups based on a few members. I see this as a kin to writing off blacks, because you can point to examples of black communities with high crimes rates.

If you look across a city like Sydney, there are whole industries that are dominated by migrants, and they are normally industries that are low paid and not very nice jobs.

If you want a kebab at 2am in the morning, you will find kebab stands all over Sydney staffed by migrants, if you want to by fuel or get a Slurpee you will find 24hr convenience stores and petrol stations staffed by migrants, If you want to catch a taxi you find taxi's driven by migrants, (these are 3 stereotype examples, but they are true, and migrants are certainly not limited to those, many other jobs that Australians see as below them are filled by migrants)

 

[luutzu]

I think there is a bit of word gaming going on in this thread. We can easily observe the indolent imports in indolent sub communities. Of course there are home grown indolent 'burbs and yes there is an argument that the safety net reduces otherwise crime and throws a bone to third gen welfare families to break the nexus and get their kids into employment, etc, etc.

The bleeding obvious is that the formula for success anywhere in the world is for industry. Importing people who have no DNA for industry, not even agrarian and more interest in mind numbing slavishness to a made up excuse to do nothing diety is simply not a good fit. Add in the need to subjugate the family with threats of violence or retribution from the all powerful skylord and the disconnect between our secular society and their primitive paternal society becomes a gulf, with us paying to keep that gulf alive through a Centrelink bridge.

Why we are so keen to hand over our sovereignty to a bunch of no hopers escapes me. Why is notion that ethnic "community" leaders even given oxygen? WE are supposed to be a nation, not a ragtag union of disparate old world bigots who cling tenanciously to old world fantasies, old world hates and old world scores. We even use arguments like how Greeks or Italians enriched our eating habits, as if to unspeak of latent downsides we must not talk about, things like gratuitous industry and the propensity to work ....... migrant families who want to build bonds and legacy, not segregate.

I think the grouping, some may call ghettoization, of ethnic groups around certain areas have more to do with economics and assimilation than they do with segregation.

First, when you migrate to an alien country and culture, it helps you to assimilate if you're close to those who also speak the same language as you do - easier to get help, make friends, socialise, ask for assistance. Second, being close to shops that sell the kind of food you eat, know what and where to buy, and being new and probably without your own car or know your way around... it saves money, time to buy what you need.

Also, if there's a large population of customers around, the Asian groceries, the medical, job, language and other services are more economically offered to new arrivals. Including such niceties as entertainment like music and videos from the home country.

With these systems close by, migrants will slowly venture outside and in time will integrate into the wider community.

We're all humans. Human cannot just drop their cultural identity and habits just like that. Need times to adjusts.
The adults may find it harder, but the kids will have no problem what with school and its indoctrination, haha

But seriously, what is there not to like about Australia? It's safe, the weather is great, the air is clean, it's rich, your kids have a better chance of making it in the world and may even rise to be someone "important"...

and the gov't... they will have to find and do elaborate schemes to convince you to not get too upset at what they're doing. Back in the home country they'll just lock you up and throw away the keys.
----

Sovereignty... Australia, through the British, is a mini-empire. Skirt by seas, having New Zealand as a defacto 7th state, surrounded by other much poorer and weaker neighbours... we're a local hegemonic power. Not bad for a big country with only 23 million people.

As all empire does, we have a depopulated native population, a dominant ethnic majority that rule and govern, and multi-cultural society with minor ethnicities that live and grow at the pleasure of the majority.

So talks of losing the Australian Christian, or the Anglo-Saxon heritage, or losing our sovereign rights to, say Muslims... That's one of those diversions Chomsky and many other political scientists talks about.

The Arabs couldn't even control their own country back in the Middle East, good luck trying to have a go at it anywhere else.

So for the working class, or the working poor Australians whose ancestors arrived with the first fleet... with manufacturing going down the tube, lower and lower wages, farming or mining jobs either shut down or own by the more efficient corporations... Who is to blame for that... can't be the gov't and policies that benefits those who butter its bread; can't be the corporations or even the lack of investment or funding into local projects and industry... So there's those non-English speaking, funny looking migrants and refugees taking away our jobs and living off of us. Not really being told that often those migrants are being exploited in sweatshops, or work day and night in low paying jobs... trying to make it too.

---

A few years back I was driving my dad's van and at a traffic stop the engine died. The car behind beeps me, I signal them to go around and out jump an Arab guy... without much talking he knew what's happening and call all his friends out and they help push the van to a gas station nearby. They all rush off before I could thank them properly.

The van was at the entry and it's a long way up, so I went to the counter to ask if he sells a tin for the gas - the guy there - I think he's also Middle Eastern... said other people he know would use the water jug outside and fill it up, then drive to the pump. Saves me $15 or something for the jerry can they're selling.

Then some two years later two Arab guys broke into my house while we were home. We're lucky we caught sight of them the moment they broke in... still they managed to take my wife's handbag and all her cards and keys, then came back later and take the car too.

 

[SirRumpole]

My problem with your statement is that you seem to be writing off whole ethnic groups based on a few members. I see this as a kin to writing off blacks, because you can point to examples of black communities with high crimes rates.

If you look across a city like Sydney, there are whole industries that are dominated by migrants, and they are normally industries that are low paid and not very nice jobs.

If you want a kebab at 2am in the morning, you will find kebab stands all over Sydney staffed by migrants, if you want to by fuel or get a Slurpee you will find 24hr convenience stores and petrol stations staffed by migrants, If you want to catch a taxi you find taxi's driven by migrants, (these are 3 stereotype examples, but they are true, and migrants are certainly not limited to those, many other jobs that Australians see as below them are filled by migrants)

Yeah, I agree. It really is amazing how many times I feel like a kebab at 2 am.


Point is, such regions don't produce a lot of scientists, engineers or entrepreneurs because their society is geared around a religion, not rational thought. If you are saying that ME people are only fit for jobs that others don't want to do, you may be right but be prepared to be called a racist.

 

[bellenuit]

Point is, such regions don't produce a lot of scientists, engineers or entrepreneurs because their society is geared around a religion, not rational thought.

I agree SR. Can you imagine this coming from mainstream religious leaders in the West

 

[luutzu]

Yeah, I agree. It really is amazing how many times I feel like a kebab at 2 am.


Point is, such regions don't produce a lot of scientists, engineers or entrepreneurs because their society is geared around a religion, not rational thought. If you are saying that ME people are only fit for jobs that others don't want to do, you may be right but be prepared to be called a racist.

Come on sir, that's wrong on a few level.

The ME has been occupied and colonised by the West since the British Empire - at least two hundred years ago.

Most of North West Africa goes to the French, so was Syria and Libya I think... The Brits control Egypt, what was the Persian empire all the way to Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Burma all the way down etc.

Then came the Nazi and WW2 all all those battles all over the place.

After WW2 the US took over from the British, kept what they call the "Arab facade" - the ruling elite working for Western powers... and all the resources goes elsewhere and whatever else it is colonised people have to put up with.

So that's at least 200 years of continuous domination. Might even be 300 because I saw paintings of Napoleon's Legions practising their cannons on Egypt's Sphinx.

I think most who are unfortunate enough to be born there would be lucky to just survive, forget about studying to be a scientist or what not.

The Middle East don't just have oil and gas, it holds a very important strategic position for all world power. Literally the link between east and west. The Suez Canal link all goods to and from the two sides... then there's the sweetest of sweet oil and not enough guns to protect it. Hence all the liberation and national building efforts we and our military industrial complex can muster.

But that's how the world works. When they were strong, they too dominate weaker states and their people call Christians and infidels barbarians and savages too. Much like how Imperial China call everyone elses barbarians and vassal states... and then became the sick man of Asia almost overnight, it seem.

It's funny, sometimes, to hear how all great powers, from the Romans on down, all across the world... how great powers literally goes into weaker states, flatten cities, pile up the dead citizens... then call the defeated savages and barbarians. Then set up colonies, enslave the natives, then look upon their poor, malnourished and illiterate state as confirmation of their inherent inferiority.

All people of all big and small powers do it. So it's not a Western concept alone.

You can ask any Chinese living now and they'd probably tell you how evil the Japanese are and how noble the Chinese blood is... forgetting that they twice tried to take over Japan, and either directly or through proxy rule just about all states around the mainland pretty much since the First Emperor. I mean, even the Vietnamese... being dominated by China, France then the US... it did a number on the Cham people, the Cambodians and a few other smaller savages around.


Which reminds me, how come we don't have much of a military industrial complex of our own? We're sitting on just about all the natural resources there ever was... and our Plan A seems to be a strong alliance with the US, and Plan B is... Britannia?

 

[luutzu]

I agree SR. Can you imagine this coming from mainstream religious leaders in the West



View attachment 62267

Here we go:




and Here:

American Patriarchs (Puritan, Mormon, Baptist, Evangelical)

Even as the church must fear Christ Jesus, so must the wives also fear their husbands. And this inward fear must be shewed by an outward meekness and lowliness in her speeches and carriage to her husband….For if there be not fear and reverence in the inferior, there can be no sound nor constant honor yielded to the superior. ””John Dod, A Plaine and Familiar Exposition of the Ten Commandements, Puritan guidebook first published in 1603
The second duty of the wife is constant obedience and subjection. ””John Dod
The root of masculine is stronger, and of feminine weaker. The sun is a governing planet to certain planets, while the moon borrows her light from the sun, and is less or weaker. ””Joseph Smith, founder of LDS movement (1805-1844)
Women are made to be led, and counseled, and directed….And if I am not a good man, I have no just right in this Church to a wife or wives, or the power to propagate my species. What then should be done with me? Make a eunuch of me, and stop my propagation. ””Heber C. Kimball, venerated early LDS apostle (1801-1868)
A wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband, even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. ””Official statement of Southern Baptist Convention, summer 1998 (15.7 million members)
The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ””Pat Robertson, Southern Baptist leader (1930–)
The Holiness of God is not evidenced in women when they are brash, brassy, boisterous, brazen, head-strong, strong-willed, loud-mouthed, overly-talkative, having to have the last word, challenging, controlling, manipulative, critical, conceited, arrogant, aggressive, assertive, strident, interruptive, undisciplined, insubordinate, disruptive, dominating, domineering, or clamoring for power. Rather, women accept God’s holy order and character by being humbly and unobtrusively respectful and receptive in functional subordination to God, church leadership, and husbands. ””James Fowler, Women in the Church, 1999.
Women will be saved by going back to that role that God has chosen for them. Ladies, if the hair on the back of your neck stands up it is because you are fighting your role in the scripture. ””Mark Driscoll, founder of Mars Hill nondenominational mega-church franchise. (1970-)


More from here: http://www.salon.com/2014/10/15/20_disgustingly_misogynist_quotes_from_religious_leaders_partner/

 

[Tink]

Thanks for sharing your post, Hodgie.
That was what I was getting at, and it doesn't matter who people are, we all arrived here and got on with working, and enjoying the country we live in.

Everyone has been through the same, whether you are black, white, Muslim, Asian whatever, and I don't understand singling people out.
Get on with it, work, build, add etc, and enjoy what we have here, don't cause trouble in the country you live in.
There are so many factors and changes, sometimes its hard to add them all, in my view.

Luutzu, good hearing your views too, and though I agree with some, I don't agree with others, we live in a free country and I am glad that we are allowed to express our thoughts, it does concern me how long for?
I am not just talking about Muslims, I am talking about society in general, the media etc.

My post was mainly on the media's fairness in how they portray both Muslims and Christians, which I posted in the ABC thread.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/the-abc-of-our-islamophobia/story-fni0ffxg-1227296169651
I know some will say, ugh, Andrew Bolt, but he said it better than I could, so the content was what I was getting at.
We had a few things happen in Melbourne and was glad he wrote it.

Sorry, VC, but I don't agree with you -- stopping mass at Christmas?

I don't know where you live but it is one of the biggest days here and in Australia, Easter is bigger in Europe.
Be it on the day or midnight mass.

Racist is one of those words that get bandied about way too quick in my view, but glad to hear you are close to your grandmother.

We have ANZAC day coming up soon, that brings it all home, I feel too.

I also have my views on our public schools, and the changes, which I have mentioned a few times.
http://westerncivilisation.ipa.org.au/
No longer teaching to read and write, now its all about how to think -- social engineering via the left.

I had one lady come to me not long ago enrolling in a Christian school, she was told she had to be put on the waiting list, its full.
Her daughter is 2 years old.

Anyway, just my views.

 

[Value Collector]

Yeah, I agree. It really is amazing how many times I feel like a kebab at 2 am.


.

I have eaten more than my fair share of kebabs, at 2am on my way home from a nights drinking, lol, and I don't think I am alone.

Point is, such regions don't produce a lot of scientists, engineers or entrepreneurs because their society is geared around a religion, not rational thought.

Religion does stifle such things, but their brains are no different from ours, The Middle East used to be a hub of scientific advances, nothing stopping individuals who migrate hear having children who contribute to the sciences.

If you are saying that ME people are only fit for jobs that others don't want to do, you may be right but be prepared to be called a racist

In no way am I saying that ethnic group can only work in those industries, I am defending the group from the charge that they are welfare scum, by pointing out that there are a large percentage among them willing to work in jobs most Aussies would turn their noses at.

As I said it's not limited to those industries either.

 

[Value Collector]

.

Sorry, VC, but I don't agree with you -- stopping mass at Christmas?

I don't know where you live but it is one of the biggest days here and in Australia, Easter is bigger in Europe.
Be it on the day or midnight mass.

.

I am not telling people to stop attending mass at Christmas (though I can recommend some things that are more fun) in my area some of the churches advertised that that there would be no Christmas day service.

Racist is one of those words that get bandied about way too quick in my view, but glad to hear you are close to your grandmother.

Well racism itself does get bandied around to easily also

 

[Value Collector]

We have ANZAC day coming up soon, that brings it all home, I feel too.

Brings what home?

As an ex soldier, to me Anzac day is a sombre day where I think out my 2 mates who died and my many other mates who carry permanent physical and emotional wounds from a conflict that was started by and prolonged because of religion.

I also think about the generations of young men before my generation who suffered the same or worse, It's not a day of celebrating what's great, like Australia day. It's day remembering the sacrifices a lot of young men and women made, and a day to remind myself of the terrible things human nature cause us to do for Kings, gods and flags, and to resist these urges.

Probably up until I was 26 ANZAC was a lot like Australia Day to me, you know a "Yay, look how awesome Australians are" type day, Since then I don't think an Anzac day has passed that I haven't cried.

 

[luutzu]

Brings what home?

As an ex soldier, to me Anzac day is a sombre day where I think out my 2 mates who died and my many other mates who carry permanent physical and emotional wounds from a conflict that was started by and prolonged because of religion.

I also think about the generations of young men before my generation who suffered the same or worse, It's not a day of celebrating what's great, like Australia day. It's day remembering the sacrifices a lot of young men and women made, and a day to remind myself of the terrible things human nature cause us to do for Kings, gods and flags, and to resist these urges.

Probably up until I was 26 ANZAC was a lot like Australia Day to me, you know a "Yay, look how awesome Australians are" type day, Since then I don't think an Anzac day has passed that I haven't cried.

Sorry man... don't know what to say to that. hmmm... always fresh in our memories? scratch that... sorry, trying to cheer you up here.

Yea, I think all young people at one of or other thinks war is just and great. It's OK I guess to think like that when you're young but scary when the politicians seem to think of war too lightly.

Saw an interview with historian Stephen Cohen and he said pretty much all the current generation of political leaders in Europe, US (and I guess that includes Australia)... all of them haven't experience war at all. And with the destructive power they command, that is a scary situation.

I mean you may have a great leadership who do not need to experience to know the consequences or the damage it does... but then I saw Bush Jr. joking about WMD not here, not there.. .man...

But whatever the opportunist politicians or the corporation does, if it's anything I have seen that all the people do really appreciate the service and sacrifices you guys have made.

I visit the War Memorial and the museum in Canberra a long while back and everyone that visits there really do show that respect you know. They all have the kind of look and silent respect you see from people in Churches.

 

[Tink]

We have never seen it like that, VC, to be cheered on, it's about sacrifice and respect, remembering those that fought for this country.
As Luutzu said, very sad to hear about your friends.

We are still fighting overseas now, who are they fighting against, remind me?
How many Christians are being slaughtered, do we see it on our news?

I mentioned your grandmother which made me think of that generation, which has endured hard times and sacrifice, and the depression.

I added an article a while back to do with Victorian school children.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...t=28209&page=4&p=828396&viewfull=1#post828396