The West has lost its freedom of speech

Tisme · 13 January 2015

Calliope said:
I fully understand your problem. I know you were just shooting off your mouth when you said the ABC was too highbrow for some Liberal supporters. As a Labor supporter is is quite natural that you would say that type of thing...and of course you meant it to be derogatory.

What I don't understand is why you have put some much time and energy and bile into attacking those who recognised your intention to belittle those people.

No amount of weasel words lke;

or

or

can change what you said, nor your intent.

And now are you trying to give the impression that you and your wife succour all battlers, or just the Howard battlers that you belittled.? Strange that you have never let on the number of these Howard battlers (i.e. Liberals), whom you claim gave you your anecdotal evidence that the ABC was too high-brow for them.

blah blah blah still trolling for a rise and getting the facts wrong deliberately. Not interested in you or your consort's back biting and feigned indignation .... maybe both of you should go mix it with the people you denigrated and see what they think of your impudence in calling them "ill-educated and culturally illiterate" which I will remind you both of from time to time when you try to imply you have some kind of empathy for the working class you obviously disdain

Tisme · 13 January 2015

Julia said:
Please don't lump me in with Calliope who seems to set out to inflame much of the time. I have no wish to be unnecessarily involved in any sort of altercation, but at the same time find it difficult to ignore what come across as class/wealth/education/culture divides.

.

You lie down with dogs you get up with fleas I'm afraid.

DB008 · 13 January 2015

Just saw that Pickering has been warned that a recent cartoon he drew (Sundar just gone) has offended Muslims and he has been offered police protection.

Value Collector · 13 January 2015

Bintang said:
Last time I looked in the dictionary the word freedom (as in the state of being free) was defined as, “the unrestricted use of something”.
So any kind of restriction will mean that freedom has been lost.
.

freedom of speech definition- The right to speak without censorship or restraint by the government

On this forum we do not have complete freedom of speech because certain words are censored. I am not complaining about this. I am just calling it how it is.

Yes, But that's not what freedom of speech is, the right to freedom of speech doesn't ensure you can speak freely where ever you want, private groups and private media can have their own rules. As I have said, Joe is not taking away your rights to freedom of speech. You have the right to express your opinions in the public square, or on your own media, or any other media that allows you.

How about the same opinions as Geert Wilders? And how about you ask him if he thinks Australia has freedom of speech

Can you give me a specific example of something he has said which you wouldn't have the right to say in Australia.

Also keep in mind that freedom of speech simply means you can say what you like without government censorship or restraint, It doesn't mean there won't be consequences for you saying certain things, if those things are protected under other laws, or are untrue etc

Eg, freedom of speech does not mean a Doctor can disclose confidential medical information, and it doesn't render you immune from a defamation action if your found guilty of any intentional false communication, either written or spoken, that harms a person's reputation, decreases the respect, regard.

Geert Wilders is being charge with inciting hate, and racial discrimination.

Joe Blow · 13 January 2015

Calliope, stop trolling. Your sole purpose here at ASF appears to be to provoke and attack others, and turn reasonable discussions into flame fests. This is your final warning before a permanent ban. You have had more than enough chances. Enough is enough. Back off, or face the consequences.

Tisme: Your lumping in of Julia with Calliope is unjustified. Yes, Calliope is a recidivist troll. However, just because two people are disagreeing with you at the same time, it doesn't follow that they share the same agenda or are in any way equivalent.

This thread has gotten far too personal. As soon as the discussion switches from the issue being debated to those participating in the debate, things tend to go downhill rapidly.

Please discuss the topic of the thread, rather than provoking or attacking each other.

Bintang · 13 January 2015

DB008 said:
Just saw that Pickering has been warned that a recent cartoon he drew (Sundar just gone) has offended Muslims and he has been offered police protection.

Very interesting. Do you mean the cartoon at this link http://pickeringpost.com/cartoon/4379

Now who will be brave enough to place a copy of it here?
I think no-one, myself included.

Bintang · 13 January 2015

Value Collector said:
Geert Wilders is being charge with inciting hate, and racial discrimination.

Exactly. Spot on!
So in respect of the topic of this thread we are now really getting to the point of 'Case Proven', are we not?

(btw this is second time around for GW. The first attempt failed and I sincerely hope this second attempt fails as well).

SirRumpole · 13 January 2015

Bintang said:
Very interesting. Do you mean the cartoon at this link http://pickeringpost.com/cartoon/4379

Now who will be brave enough to place a copy of it here?
I think no-one, myself included.

It's certainly not Halal.

Calliope · 13 January 2015

Bintang said:
Exactly. Spot on!
So in respect of the topic of this thread we are now really getting to the point of 'Case Proven', are we not?

Yes...quod erat demonstrandum

Calliope · 13 January 2015

DB008 said:
Just saw that Pickering has been warned that a recent cartoon he drew (Sundar just gone) has offended Muslims and he has been offered police protection.

Value Collector · 13 January 2015

Bintang said:
Exactly. Spot on!
So in respect of the topic of this thread we are now really getting to the point of 'Case Proven', are we not?

(btw this is second time around for GW. The first attempt failed and I sincerely hope this second attempt fails as well).

Inciting racial hatred is in the same league as defamation, just because you have the right to freedom of speech doesn't mean you can defame people and not have consequences.

SirRumpole · 13 January 2015

Value Collector said:
Inciting racial hatred is in the same league as defamation, just because you have the right to freedom of speech doesn't mean you can defame people and not have consequences.

As I understand it, Wilders is vociferous against Islam, he said

"I don't hate Muslims, I hate Islam".

As Islam is not a race, but an ideology, why should what he says against Islam come under the Racial Discrimination Act ?

Plenty of people on this board have said words to the same effect. Should we all be arrested ?

The idea of banning Wilders is quite reprehensible. As long as he delineates the discussion to the ideology and not the people practising it, he has every right to say what he wants.

Bintang · 13 January 2015

Value Collector said:
Inciting racial hatred is in the same league as defamation, just because you have the right to freedom of speech doesn't mean you can defame people and not have consequences.

Well we can leave it to the Dutch legal system to sort it out but if GW goes down for merely asking a group of his supporters the question, "Do you want more or fewer Moroccans in this country?" I think it will be a very sad day for the future of freedom of speech - Q.E.D.

Calliope · 13 January 2015

If Charlie Hebdo had been in Australia, the cartoonists would have been arrested by the State which would have saved the terrorists the trouble of murdering them

Before the parliament is a Private Senators Bill ”” the Racial Discrimination Amendment Bill 2014 ”” which better protects our freedom of expression by amending section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act 1995 by removing the words ‘‘offend’’ and ‘‘insult’’.

Section 18C makes unlawful acts that may offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person because of race, colour or national or ethnic origin

If our political class were to rise above partisan politics and build a legislative monument to the human price paid by France for its defence of freedom of expression by voting for the Racial Discrimination Amendment Bill 2014 they would find themselves in esteemed company.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...om-of-expression/story-e6frg6zo-1227182629724

Value Collector · 13 January 2015

Bintang said:
Well we can leave it to the Dutch legal system to sort it out but if GW goes down for merely asking a group of his supporters the question, "Do you want more or fewer Moroccans in this country?" I think it will be a very sad day for the future of freedom of speech - Q.E.D.

He didn't just ask that, he refered to them as Moroccan scum.

But even if he was just asking do you want more Moroccans, thats like asking do you want more chinese. It's not a valid question in a society where race is not meant to be a factor

Macquack · 13 January 2015

Calliope said:
If Charlie Hebdo had been in Australia, the cartoonists would have been arrested by the State which would have saved the terrorists the trouble of murdering them

Maybe we are more civilised than the French. Your example says it all.

Value Collector · 13 January 2015

SirRumpole said:
As I understand it, Wilders is vociferous against Islam, he said

As Islam is not a race, but an ideology, why should what he says against Islam come under the Racial Discrimination Act ?

Plenty of people on this board have said words to the same effect. Should we all be arrested ?

The idea of banning Wilders is quite reprehensible. As long as he delineates the discussion to the ideology and not the people practising it, he has every right to say what he wants.

If he limited his comments to questioning Islam, he wouldn't have a problem. But trying to rally the crowd against "Moroccan scum" is very different.

I am all for protesting religion, especially Islam, but there is a right way and a wrong way. Implicating a persons race or nationality is not the correct thing to do.

Also, curry is a food, not a race, but calling an Indian a "Curry muncher" is a racial slur. So just because you don't mention a race, doesn't mean your not making judgements based on race.

I have no problem attacking Islam, but am turned off when protests become more about hating on "rag heads" or "the dirty mussos" etc

Calliope · 13 January 2015

The West is starting to gain a little courage and follow the example set by Charlie Hebdo. Threats of violence and intimidation can be countered when the media shows a little backbone.
This is the cover of the next edition of Charlie Hebdo which is expected to sell millions of copies.

The cover has also been published online by a number of media organisations around the world, including The Australian, the ABC, The Daily Telegraph, news.com, 7News.com.au and 9news.com.au in Australia.

In the United States, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, LA Times and Huffington Post were among organisations to publish the image.

Calliope · 13 January 2015

A dangerous practice.

Bintang · 13 January 2015

Value Collector said:
He didn't just ask that, he refered to them as Moroccan scum.

Did he really? I’m not aware of that but how about quoting your source and I might take notice?

Value Collector said:
But even if he was just asking do you want more Moroccans, thats like asking do you want more chinese. It's not a valid question in a society where race is not meant to be a factor

What’s wrong with asking do you want more chinese?
And what is wrong with asking any of the following:
- Do you want more legal immigration?
- Do you want more illegal immigration (i.e. boat arrivals)?
- Do you want more muslims ?
- Do you want more Iraqis?

These are just questions. If it is wrong to ask them then it is just more resounding proof that we are controlled by political correctness and censorship and without doubt we have lost our freedom of speech – Q.E.D.

The West has lost its freedom of speech

Tisme

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Tisme

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DB008

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

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