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The issue is simply that the identifiable category is in no way limited to indigenous people and nor are all indigenous people in that category.You have completely missed the point. Government has actually put in place policies for all people, and even attempts to do things differently to accommodate the varying needs of some. Despite these policies an identifiable category continues to suffer a higher rate of social disadvantage than all others, and across a broader spectrum of areas.
My argument is to fix issues of disadvantage for everyone regardless of race.Your "someone" happens to be a significant number of indigenous people that have been failed by governments since colonisation, and their levels of disadvantage quantified in Closing the Gap reports.
I personally find your "motherhood" statements to be lame excuses for not coming to grips with the need for a new approach to remedying our national disgrace of failed indigenous policies.
Let's get this straight, Craven said it, word for word, and since he lost out on adjusting the Voice wording he decided to get behind it 100% because he thought it was "just". He "lost on the drafting".
A simple google finds it on their ABC.
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the No vote apparently you included are pushing fear deception and doubt.
Quoting yes campaigners is "pushing fear deception and doubt"?
This is part of the problem with the yes campaign. It's your job to convince us that it's beneficial. But, you can't. You've got nothing.
It will depend on the intensity of the dummy spit.Not only do the Yes camp have nothing, they’re starting to panic.
What will happen to the Prime Minister’s political credibility if the referendum fails?
Whilst broadly true, lack of a clear solution does not of itself mean the Voice is the right approach either.none of you have an alternative or a way forward
Poor fella my country read the book
Expanding on the great point you've made, there is no other culture which has maintained any sort of traditional mediaeval/tribal style lifestyle *successfully in the modern world, unless having no, or very little contact.Whilst broadly true, lack of a clear solution does not of itself mean the Voice is the right approach either.
Without intending to be racist or offensive, and I mean that genuinely, my "outsider" observation is there's a fundamental cultural difference being pushed by not all but a vocal portion of the ATSI community that seeks to hold the rest back.
Yes the British invaded Australia and so on. Yep, they did, and they invaded rather a lot of other countries too indeed they invaded most countries at some point. No denying that whatsoever.
Andorra, Belarus, Bolivia, Burundi, Central African Republic, Chad, Republic of Congo, Guatemala, Ivory Coast, Kyrgyzstan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Mali, Marshall Islands, Monaco, Mongolia, Paraguay, Sao Tome and Principe, Sweden, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Vatican City.
If a country isn't listed there, then it's been invaded by Britain at some point in history. https://today.rtl.lu/news/luxembour...f countries,and Principe, Sweden, Tajikistan,
So 195 countries in the world and only 22 the British didn't invade. The Australian Aboriginals sure weren't the only ones to cop an invasion, the British were pretty keen on the whole colonising thing.
Where the difference lies is that in Western culture even 40 years ago is too long to be relevant beyond entertainment, with the result that no young person today is being held back because their ancestors lost a war. They take it for what it is and get on with life.
So I'll put the question:
Suppose that you and I are the government and we're willing to do whatever it takes to make this work.
How do we convince Aboriginal children and teenagers to focus on the present and their future?
How do we convince them to aspire to the things valued in mainstream Australian society and to succeed with education, employment, business, personal relationships and so on?
That's the only thing that's ever going to really close the gap. If we can't achieve that, nothing's going to work.
Personally I'm not at all convinced on the Voice but then I'm not outright against the concept either. What concerns me is the prospect of Aboriginal Elders being too rusted on to some notion of maintaining their traditional way of life and avoiding assimilation, seeing it as some sort of acceptance of defeat rather than focusing on what's best for their own people going forward.
Not only do the Yes camp have nothing, they’re starting to panic.
What will happen to the Prime Minister’s political credibility if the referendum fails?
Mr smurf with the limited dealings that i have had with "1st people' when it came to settling a problem it was easy, though i was not a party to it, hand over a great wad of dollars and they were very happy.Whilst broadly true, lack of a clear solution does not of itself mean the Voice is the right approach either.
Without intending to be racist or offensive, and I mean that genuinely, my "outsider" observation is there's a fundamental cultural difference being pushed by not all but a vocal portion of the ATSI community that seeks to hold the rest back.
Yes the British invaded Australia and so on. Yep, they did, and they invaded rather a lot of other countries too indeed they invaded most countries at some point. No denying that whatsoever.
Andorra, Belarus, Bolivia, Burundi, Central African Republic, Chad, Republic of Congo, Guatemala, Ivory Coast, Kyrgyzstan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Mali, Marshall Islands, Monaco, Mongolia, Paraguay, Sao Tome and Principe, Sweden, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Vatican City.
If a country isn't listed there, then it's been invaded by Britain at some point in history. https://today.rtl.lu/news/luxembourg/a/1422840.html#:~:text=The full list of countries,and Principe, Sweden, Tajikistan,
So 195 countries in the world and only 22 the British didn't invade. The Australian Aboriginals sure weren't the only ones to cop an invasion, the British were pretty keen on the whole colonising thing.
Where the difference lies is that in Western culture even 40 years ago is too long to be relevant beyond entertainment, with the result that no young person today is being held back because their ancestors lost a war. They take it for what it is and get on with life.
So I'll put the question:
Suppose that you and I are the government and we're willing to do whatever it takes to make this work.
How do we convince Aboriginal children and teenagers to focus on the present and their future?
How do we convince them to aspire to the things valued in mainstream Australian society and to succeed with education, employment, business, personal relationships and so on?
That's the only thing that's ever going to really close the gap. If we can't achieve that, nothing's going to work.
Personally I'm not at all convinced on the Voice but then I'm not outright against the concept either. What concerns me is the prospect of Aboriginal Elders being too rusted on to some notion of maintaining their traditional way of life and avoiding assimilation, seeing it as some sort of acceptance of defeat and clinging to ideas of turning the clock back to sometime prior to 1788 rather than focusing on what's best for their own people going forward.
There are no data to support that view.The issue is simply that the identifiable category is in no way limited to indigenous people and nor are all indigenous people in that category.completely false.
Those policies are already in place. It's under our social security system, combined with a raft of other policies attaching to the full range of health, housing, education, social and financial support initiatives.If the aim is to help disadvantaged people then why not help disadvantaged people no matter who they are?
Incorrect again, as this has been reported on for decades as structural social disadvantage. What you are talking about is blatant discrimination, which is a completely different kettle of fish.The argument that being ATSI is itself a disadvantage rests upon the notion of racial inferiority,
The metrics of Closing the Gap are not a fabrication.To the best of my knowledge no such evidence exists.
Your continuing use of motherhood examples, in this case using just one person, does not cut the mustard. The reason the consolidated data shows what it does has a direct relationship to systemic disadvantage suffered by indigenous people, especially those in remote communities. There are literally hundreds of reports going back a very long time that document this.Note that I didn't mention the race of the child and there's a reason for that. It's not the key problem. Sure, some races might be more prone to having those circumstances that's true but race is not of itself the issue.
Except that is completely false unless you think data is meaningless. I suggest you rethink what "more or less common" means when for example we know that at the 2006 Census there were approximately 60,000 Indigenous Australians aged 50 years and over, accounting for about 12% of the total Indigenous population, while 31% of the non-Indigenous population fell into this age group. I could use many other examples to prove you wrong, but surely we know there is a problem sticking out like the proverbial when almost 3 times as many non-indigenous people make it to age 50 and above.Same with anything. Just because something's more or less common in a particular group doesn't justify ignoring those who have the problem and who aren't in the group.
My other reply to you covers this. However, your point would have us think that nothing was being done for this "everyone" in your group, which is completely false. I spent a year working for Social Security in north Queensland and know first hand the measures in place for assisting those "disadvantaged." Incidentally, at that time our office dealt with the first case of gender reassignment, which led to substantial subsequent policy reviews and changes to internal operating systems of multiple departments in order to be able o have potential access to all support services.My argument is to fix issues of disadvantage for everyone regardless of race.
You again trundle out motherhood statements which miss the point.How to make it happen is the hard bit because there's going to be some pretty major resistance almost certainly, mostly from adults. There'll be some who want the best for the kids but many will baulk in practice when it comes to the crunch.
If that were the case the Voice would not have been proposed. Had you and other proponents of the "no" vote taken the time to read about and understand how the Voice can make a difference you would not have made that comment.The Voice provides nothing more than what already exists in regards to closing the gap.
You should read my posts where I have outlined it in some detail.What is the other 'opportunity' that the Voice provides?\
How about you answer my questions and stop resorting to the lies, deceptions and misinformation that pervades the no case. Or do I need to post that dictionary to help you work out what I am referring to?You've now said "lies, deception and disinformation" a couple of times in regards to my comments, but I think it's only in regards to me posting up quotes from the yes activists, or that a few of the architects of the Voice will end up being part of the Voice body.
Is that it? That's lies, deception and disinformation?
There is nothing wrong with proponents of the yes case being critical of aspects of it, as is their right. Julian Leeser and many other prominent yes case supporters would have preferred some changes here and there, but at some point the line needed to be drawn. Some at Uluru in 2017 walked out because they didn't think it was working out in a way they preferred, or that the process could have been improved.Quoting yes campaigners is "pushing fear deception and doubt"?
We can't cure "stupid."This is part of the problem with the yes campaign. It's your job to convince us that it's beneficial. But, you can't. You've got nothing.
Anyone reading the background to the Voice and knowing its potential for change would be able to work out it could only be beneficial. In fact it builds on Senator's Prices real world concerns about local community issues needing to be addressed by providing an enshrined focal point, rather than symbolism. Moreover, it will be able to synthesise issues and solutions, cost and prioritise them for consideration, rather than the present piecemeal approach that has been a proven failure.
A key reason for promoting the Voice is to recognise that indigenous peoples of Australia are not one group, but rather comprise hundreds of groups that have their own distinct set of languages, histories and cultural traditions. Accordingly, it aims to seek from them potential solutions that fit their local communities.
And on and on he goes blah, blah blahA public servant's reply if ever I heard one.
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