The Voice

[TimeISmoney]

Mr smurf with the limited dealings that i have had with "1st people' when it came to settling a problem it was easy, though i was not a party to it, hand over a great wad of dollars and they were very happy.
And I don't see that scenario ever changing no mtter what the final vote is.
For me it has and always will be a definite vote of NO.

This indeed is part of why they want the recognition and treaty. They don't need to enshrine the voice to get this, it's already been done in the south west of WA, just like they can legislate the voice to get faster progress with closing the gap.

https://www.oric.gov.au/publication...t-native-title-settlement-clears-final-hurdle

Noongar had agreed to surrender native title in the claim areas in exchange for a comprehensive set of benefits including the following and more:

• formal recognition in an act of parliament acknowledging the Noongar as traditional owners of Noongar lands in the south-west of Western Australia;
• handback of 320,000 hectares of cultural and development land to Noongar ownership and control and $46.8 million over ten years for environmental projects on that land;
• joint management of the national parks and conservation estate on Noongar lands;
• access rights for Noongar people to undertake customary activities on ‘Crown land’;
• $600 million over 12 years through a ‘future fund’ trust for the use and benefit of Noongar;
• $120 million over twelve years in operational funding and $6.5 million in capital funding for the establishment of the Noongar corporations;
• 121 houses and $10 million to develop and refurbish them; and
• $5.3 million and up to 2 hectares of land for a Noongar cultural centre.

 

[wayneL]

Yes/Labor/Marxist activists might want to check out the latest poll results from Western Oceana.

 

[JohnDe]

The more I read the more all this is starting to sound like a covert way to create a Republic.

Why did the proponents of this change decline to confine the voice to matters that only affect indigenous people, or even primarily affect indigenous people?

Without such limits, this looks like an attempt to establish a shadow government that would be free to develop policies on everything. Those policies would be formally framed as advice but, according to prime minister Anthony Albanese, it would be a brave government that ignored its advice.

I'm not against Australia becoming a Republic, other countries from the Commonwealth have successfully transitioned. However, the people have been fully informed and had a say and then a vote.

The Voice referendum could be a major step towards constitutional and electoral renewal​

 

[rederob]

And how do you propose that a "Canberra voice" can represent this diverse range cultures ?

When will you educate yourself to learn what has been said in this regard instead of continuing to look like a fool?

If you want input from local communities it would be more efficient for the Minister to simply go out and ask rather than get input from middlemen.

Perhaps you can explain how that works, given it's that very process that the Voice is attempting to replace?

 

[SirRumpole]

When will you educate yourself to learn what has been said in this regard instead of continuing to look like a fool?

Perhaps you can explain how that works, given it's that very process that the Voice is attempting to replace?

The Minister gets on a plane, helicopter or car and visits the communities in question and gets their input.

Is that too difficult for you to understand ?

Oh sorry, you're a public servant. My bad.

 

[JohnDe]

Oh sorry, you're a public servant. My bad.

I doubt that.

• the person has an exaggerated sense of self-importance and an inflated level of entitlement
• they constantly need admiration and praise
• they are always expecting special treatment due to their self-perception of superiority
• they are always exaggerating their achievements
• they have explosive or negative reactions to criticism
• they are mostly preoccupied with fantasies of power and success
• they take advantage of other people and are unwilling or unable to recognize the needs and emotions of others around them
• they behave arrogantly without regard for others

 

[TimeISmoney]

A submission to the voice by an ATSI crown prosecutor. I've shortened it but it just further proves my earlier posts.



My name is Josephine ******* and I am a proud Australian. I am honoured to be a descendant of the Warrimay Aboriginal people from the mid-north coast of New South Wales.

I am a former Crown Prosecutor, a lawyer and a businesswoman with more than two decades of experience working on the ground towards economic progress for Aboriginal people. I was an inaugural member of the Prime Ministers Indigenous Advisory Council and served as the Chair of its Safe Communities Committee until 2017 and I sit on the Board of the Sydney Harbour Federation Trust. In recognition of my commitment, I was selected as a friend of the Commonwealth Treasury in 2016 and in 2018.


I am writing to protest against the Indigenous voice. I support equality of opportunity and recognise it is the successful cornerstone of our great nation. Aboriginal disadvantage is worsening and in some regions, dysfunction has become normalised which is a sad reflection of our failure to address the real causes of disadvantage.

The Voice must not proceed because the following has not been addressed.

Unresolved Corruption Australians have spent trillions of dollars on attempting to improve Aboriginal disadvantage. The Australian Crime Commission (ACC) task force operated between 2007 and 2014 and visited 145 Indigenous communities, 58 regional towns and held almost 2000 stakeholder meetings. It found widespread abuse of power and connections with organised crime within Aboriginal organisations. It confirmed, 'Individuals in positions of authority have engaged in child abuse, violence and fraud' (refer to link on the website http://onevoiceaustralia.com.au for details).

Self Appointed Aboriginal Leadership The same Aboriginal people involved in the Uluru Statement were involved with ATSIC which had to be dismantled because of corruption. These same people designed the Native Title Act and control the Voices of Aboriginal people. They have achieved little and have not improved the quality of life for Aboriginal people. The money they receive does not reach Aboriginal people living in communities. Aboriginal identity Fraud

Aboriginal identity fraud causes harm and generates anger in Aboriginal communities. It is assumed the government and by association, the Australian people do not care. For instance, many politicians continue to ignore the undeniable evidence proving Bruce Pascoe has no Aboriginal ancestry (see genealogy report here https://australianhistory972829073.wordpress.com/2019/10/23/bruce-pascoehowaboriginal-is-he/ website for details). It is inappropriate to expect the Australian people to trust those consulting the government on the implementation of the Voice are all of Aboriginal descent because identity fraud is known to be rampant. It is also challenging for Aboriginal people living in communities to trust the Voice process and most do not know about it.

The Voiceless: It is vital the voices of Aboriginal people living in communities are heard and honoured. It is not appropriate to consult only those who, for over 50 years have profited from an endless stream of taxpayer dollars. Nor it is appropriate for the same failed leadership to be appointed to design and implement a Voice to Parliament. This same Aboriginal elite leadership has for decades failed to address the growing problems affecting my people living in communities and the money has rarely reached them. The Voice to Parliament occurs as a convenient way to deflect the real issues impacting my people and the privileged leadership group is now accusing Australians of being racist, which is undermining our nation and dividing our people. As Neville Bonner, the first Aboriginal person to be elected to the Australian Parliament, as a Liberal Senator for Queensland warned, 'Beware there are those among us who will pit coloured against white and white against coloured, Australian against Australian. Bonner claimed agitators were imitating the Black Power movement in the United States, 'they mean to destroy and to inflict conflict on this nation. God grant that 1970 will still see racial harmony through our land.' I have been visiting Aboriginal communities to discuss these ideas with my people. They were not consulted about 'the voice'. As .... wisely reminds us, So the last shall be first and the first last: for many be called but few chosen.

https://web.archive.org.au/awa/2022...ashman - sbm17b92980a9a6a93d99382_cleaned.pdf

 

[TimeISmoney]

Oh sorry, you're a public servant. My bad.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

It is my belief that The Voice Referendum will be pulled.

Sooner rather than later.

It has been divisive enough mainly via the ABC Luvvies, Gurdianistas and the Sky and The Australian crowds.

Indigenous people on both sides have behaved with dignity and couth, as have their non-Indigenous neighbours and friends.

gg

 

[sptrawler]

I'm not against Australia becoming a Republic, other countries from the Commonwealth have successfully transitioned.

Just wondering which of them are better than Australia, New Zealand and Canada, it should be an interesting list.

 

[Sean K]

Just wondering which of them are better than Australia, New Zealand and Canada, it should be an interesting list.

Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sudan, Nigeria ... the list is endless....

 

[IFocus]

Quoting yes campaigners is "pushing fear deception and doubt"?

This is part of the problem with the yes campaign. It's your job to convince us that it's beneficial. But, you can't. You've got nothing.

Out of context certainly and knowingly so confirms it.

I don't have to do anything but it beggars belief when political arguments are put up against a proposal for the greater good.

The great shame is the fear, deception and doubt feeds beautifully into underlying prejudice , racism and negative generalisations regarding Aboriginals without addressing the issues its an absolute winner Dutton and the Nats know it.

 

[IFocus]

Bro, there's posts on this thread that can be too long to sustain my attention, and you're saying to read "the longest Australian work of fiction ever written, and the longest single-volume novel to have been written in the English language" - at 1463 pages ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_Fellow_My_Country ). I highly doubt wading through all that will cause many principled "no" voters to have some road to Damascus moment, throw up their hands, and start shouting from the rooftops that we must award some (genetic?!? ? ) special interest group powers (a permanent protected "voice" to the corridors of power and the media IS power) other citizens are not being given.

Haha actually agree I don't actually think any no voter will change their mind just about all will never have met or engaged with the Aboriginal community other than seeing activists creating outrage headlines (elites) or the latest disaster of dysfunction in some community.

To deal with this stuff and none of its easy you have to look though all that think about what's happened and why failure what's the vehicle for buy in, 99% of Australians wont do that unfortunately so I don't think it has any chance.

 

[Sean K]

Out of context certainly and knowingly so confirms it.

Disagree Mr Galah. The no camp will win this by just quoting the yes campaigners over and over. They've really cocked this up, dramatically. Albo saying it's got nothing to do with anything else but recognition is almost a final straw in credibility. Wearing that Midnight Oil t-shirt last year wraps it up. I vote yes to recognition.

 

[TimeISmoney]

It is my belief that The Voice Referendum will be pulled.

Sooner rather than later.

It has been divisive enough mainly via the ABC Luvvies, Gurdianistas and the Sky and The Australian crowds.

Indigenous people on both sides have behaved with dignity and couth, as have their non-Indigenous neighbours and friends.

gg

It wouldn't surprise me if they postpone it and come back with a modified campaign.

 

[farmerge]

Just wondering which of them are better than Australia, New Zealand and Canada, it should be an interesting list.

Thinking hard but really can't think of one at the moment.

 

[farmerge]

Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sudan, Nigeria ... the list is endless....

Run by the military, despots and rulers for life. way to go, I think not.

 

[wayneL]

Just wondering which of them are better than Australia, New Zealand and Canada, it should be an interesting list.

It's a pretty low bar these days too

 

[Smurf1976]

There are no data to support that view.

Are you seriously saying there are no non-indigenous people who are disadvantaged and that no indigenous people are not disadvantaged?

If so, we seemingly have a very different definition of what constitutes being disadvantaged.

I take it to mean someone who, due to circumstances beyond their control, is in practice unable to do things that other people have the option to do or who is actively and effectively deterred from doing so.

Noting that I'm not in any way arguing against efforts to improve the lives of Aboriginal people. My argument is to do the same for everyone in similar circumstances regardless of race.

Those policies are already in place. It's under our social security system, combined with a raft of other policies attaching to the full range of health, housing, education, social and financial support initiatives.

They are however clearly not working, that's readily apparent for all to see.

The metrics of Closing the Gap are not a fabrication.

That is unrelated to my statement that to the best of my knowledge there's no objective proof of racial inferiority being the cause.

How to measure that the gap has or hasn't been closed is relatively straightforward I agree. If we accept "Western" measures of success as the ones to be used then it's relatively straightforward to compare life expectancy, income, marriage and divorce statistics, educational attainment, etc.

Your continuing use of motherhood examples, in this case using just one person, does not cut the mustard.

I think it's obvious that my use of "the child" refers to all children generically not just one actual, specific child.

Except that is completely false unless you think data is meaningless.

Or if I think ignoring minorities is undesirable.

Focusing only on the most common scenario is, after all, what's lead to much of the present difficulties in the first place. Policies aimed firmly at the middle (and above) class in the major capital cities with a few carrots thrown to farmers and miners while largely ignoring the rest is at the heart of much of the issue here.

It's somewhat telling that with the exception of Kevin Rudd and Malcolm Fraser, every other Prime Minister we've had since 1949 (excluding short term caretakers) is from an electorate in metropolitan Sydney or Melbourne. Given Rudd's was in Brisbane, that leaves Fraser as the only one not from an east coast capital city although he was still from Victoria.

We have to go back to 1945 to find one from WA, and to 1939 to find one from Tasmania. We've never had a PM whose electorate is in SA or NT.

That Australian politics is so heavily focused on two cities, which are themselves very similar to each other and not at all similar to much of Australia, is itself much of the problem. The further someone is from that in terms of their lived experience, the more they tend to be neglected.

ATSI are an extreme but we see the effect elsewhere too. Australians in areas substantially different to the big two cities tend to have worse health and other outcomes no matter what their race. Hence the lowest life expectancy is in the NT and the second lowest is Tasmania.

 

[rederob]

Are you seriously saying there are no non-indigenous people who are disadvantaged and that no indigenous people are not disadvantaged?

I am saying there is no data that allows your point to be meaningful.

They are however clearly not working, that's readily apparent for all to see.

Indeed, and the comparative difference has been quantified, and that's why Closing the Gap exists.

That is unrelated to my statement that to the best of my knowledge there's no objective proof of racial inferiority being the cause.

That point has nothing to do with anything related to the Voice or the referendum proposal.

How to measure that the gap has or hasn't been closed is relatively straightforward I agree. If we accept "Western" measures of success as the ones to be used then it's relatively straightforward to compare life expectancy, income, marriage and divorce statistics, educational attainment, etc.

C'mon @Smurf1976, the metrics are simply based on like for like comparison and it's entirely irrelevant to "western" measures of success.

I think it's obvious that my use of "the child" refers to all children generically not just one actual, specific child.

Your point fails to account for "all data" and context.
There is no argument that disadvantage exists in many spheres. The problem with your example is that it ignores the wider picture. When we look at all the data we can draw some conclusions. Moreover, in the case of data in Closing the Gap reports we can see there is consistency over time which can be tracked back to systemic structural disadvantage which your motherhood remarks don't address.

ATSI are an extreme but we see the effect elsewhere too. Australians in areas substantially different to the big two cities tend to have worse health and other outcomes no matter what their race. Hence the lowest life expectancy is in the NT and the second lowest is Tasmania.

I don't think "whataboutism" is regarded by anyone as a valid argument.
You consistently make blind Freddy and motherhood comments that are poor excuses for ignoring the proven fact that there is an identifiable class of Australians that suffer multiple concurrent levels of disadvantage which are significantly more severe than for others.
If this were the climate change thread it would be akin to showing a few glaciers increasing in size as proof we don't have a problem.