The only thing required for evil to succeed...

[nelly]

Back to YTs issue, yes, the UN is a paper tiger in some regards but it also does some good stuff, other than in peacekeeping/making. For eg, UNHCR, UNICEF, and other agencies promoting women's right's.

The most obvious thing we see the UN doing is soldiers on the ground which unfortunately takes an agreement between the five permanent members of the Security Council (read WWII winners) and all these individual sovereign nations have their own agendas. Not that of the rest of the world.

The very unfortunate thing I see around the world atm, is people like us, YES US, who are busy pontificating, playing the stockmarket, counting how many yachts we can ski behind, and are not actually doing anything about it. Me and you and right now sitting on countless wealth compared to millions of people through Asia, Africa and Sth/Central America, and are still being gready. If we really all feel strongly enough about it, give back.[The ideology of the Iranian revolution separates the world into Muslims and infidels, us and them at war and ordained by God never to make peace. To these revolutionaries, the West, the US, Israel, liberal democracy, is all of a piece -- strong, perhaps, in appearance but inwardly decadent -- so that one good pull will unravel the whole doomed cat's cradle. As faithful Shia Muslims, they also believe the doctrine that the End of Days is foretold, and imminent.Perhaps I am speaking for myself, but I am a vey selfish human, looking after myself and family. That coming from someone who HAS served with the UN in peacekeeping/making...

WELCOME BACK....i agreee...sorry if the typing isn't 2 sharp but have had a birthday party 2 attend 2.....yes i agree we r fortunate 2 live where we live...no bomb blast 2 contend with 24/7...no rape of women... no killing of men......no slaughter of children..we r indeed fortunate...and shoud aid LESS fortunate...i personally aid 2 kids...1 in Nicaragua and 1 in Africa...through World Vision.....all i can do..atm....and i am solo.
cheerful alwayts :hide: ..we should at least b humanitarians.

 

[Sean K]

The ideology of the Iranian revolution separates the world into Muslims and infidels, us and them at war and ordained by God never to make peace. To these revolutionaries, the West, the US, Israel, liberal democracy, is all of a piece -- strong, perhaps, in appearance but inwardly decadent -- so that one good pull will unravel the whole doomed cat's cradle. As faithful Shia Muslims, they also believe the doctrine that the End of Days is foretold, and imminent...

Thanks for adding that into my quote Nelly.

Oh, and thanks! It's great to be back!!!

 

[noirua]

Sometimes the answers as to how many things happen is to research them in depth - if you have the time.

Many of the aircraft bombing Lebanon refueled at Glasgow Prestwick Airport in Scotland and are backed up, in supplies, from the former Royal Airforce Base at Kent International Airport in England. Both Airports are owned by New Zealand's " Infratil " and the Airports are fully managed, on Infratil's behalf, by the United States Company " HRL Morrison ".

It does seem, after President Bush's apology to the UK Prime minster, Tony Blair, that they refuelled without the UK's approval, and Managers " HRL Morrison " gave permission for the aircraft to land with Infratil's knowledge.

http://www.infratil.com/glasgow_prestwick_international_airport.htm

http://www.infratil.com/kent_international_airport.htm

http://www.hrlmorrison.com/infratil_manager_introduction.htm


HRL Morrison ( Australia ) are a subsiduary of HRL Morrison.

 

[hiflo]

Re: When there is action there is reaction....

I see this terrorism the legacy of western imperialism into middle east and Africa and English acceptance of Zionism after WWII, which allowed Israel to exist.

As a result, Palestinians lost their homeland which they had occupied for thousands of years. They were pushed away from Jerusalem to live elsewhere.

So to counteract the violence they experienced, including the three Israeli-Arab conflict, they are setting up groups like Intifata, Hezebollah and trying to get their homeland and their basic rights.

Hezebollah is apparently set up in southern Lebanon and that is why Israel is attacking.

Is West going to interfere?

Some Jews from US and around the world may go back and fight for Israel.

But Western countries like US, Eng, & Aus? How are they going to convince their public to justify their participation in War?

1. Is there a totalitarin like Saddam Hussein?- no
2. Are we threated by our cold war enemies?- we are out of cold war.
3. Is Lebanon full of oil reserves?- may, but is not a world player in Oil Politics.

 

[visual]

on the other hand imagine if they all had learned to live togheter from the outset,right now they probably would`ve become so mixed that no one would be able to tell them apart.Right now these only 5 million Jews as compared to how many? arabs,having the Jews there probably would`ve lifted them out of the dark ages and integrated them into the world as we know it.Just a thought.It`s not as though the muslims who seem to want to drag everyone into the dark ages have ever been known to appreciate education.

 

[Prospector]

I was thinking with Mel Gibsons outburst re Jewish people, and am always trying to find answers to things that bother me. So, at risk of offending probably every religious group in sight, as a questionning atheist I ask the following:

• Why have the Jewish people been so reviled through history?

• Why do Christian groups have such a difficult relationship with Jewish people given that one of the major 'pinnacles' of Christianity was the death on the cross and the resurrection three days later - without Judas this would not have happened

• Wasnt Judas ordained to deliver Jesus to the Jews, so he had no choice?

Please be kind if I have insulted anyone - I am just trying to understand

I dont understand why others can be hated just because they worship differently so for the life of me I dont understand religious wars at all!

 

[Sean K]

I think there could be about 100 good books out there that fail to adequately explain these questions Prospector.

Obviously though, there is something going wrong out there!

You don't even have to look 'out there' though. Just check out what 'Australians' do to each other on a day to day basis.

 

[Rafa]

on the other hand imagine if they all had learned to live togheter from the outset,right now they probably would`ve become so mixed that no one would be able to tell them apart.Right now these only 5 million Jews as compared to how many? arabs,having the Jews there probably would`ve lifted them out of the dark ages and integrated them into the world as we know it.Just a thought.It`s not as though the muslims who seem to want to drag everyone into the dark ages have ever been known to appreciate education.

Visual, you'll find people (common people that is) have been living together for many many centuries... most wars were fought on nationalistic grounds, rather than religious grounds...

Certainly, in places like the middle east... jews, muslims and christians lived side by side... In places like India, muslims and hindus lived side by side...

Infact, their bonds were so strong they were challenging the european occupiers at the time... in these cases... BRITAIN!

In the 1850's British adopted the policy of divide and rule... get them to fight amongst themselves, and leave britain alone...

They couldn't divide them on nationalistic lines, so they used religios lines...
that worked for quite a few years, 70-80 years.. but eventually, the occupiers had to leave....

But when they left, they divided the land up on religious divides... making muslims relocate to muslim countries (pakistan, bangladesh, palestine, etc was formes) and the other religions to form other countries...

This widespread uprooting of people from their traditional places of living is the root cause of many of the problems today...

Fundamentalist Islam is another of the side effects of the divide and conquer policy...


If you think I am talking crap... India was one country for over 5000 years... during that time it was occupied by Hindus (5000 years), Christians (2000years), Buddhist, Muslims (1000 years), etc.... Please explain why its only in the last 50 years did such a big need to divide into separate countries came about...

One answer... Britain sowed the seed of religious hatred and nurtured that from the late 18th century onwards...

Now we are reaping what we have sowed!

 

[Sean K]

Interesting point Rafa.

Has this ever happened in other parts of the world though in the name of religion and culture?

What about the Mayans and Aztecs and even the Incans conquering and dividing in Central/Sth America. Is this not culture/religion dominating by force. I don't think the Poms were behind that.

Also, Hinduism and Islam, at various times, conquered parts of Sth East Asia, through conflict. No Poms around then either.

Maybe they are not the same sort of examples though....??

 

[visual]

Rafa,
I understand what you are talking about,but its just so tiring to be confronted by all this misery on a daily basis.How much worse must it be for the people actually living this situation.
I just wish they would all understand what its all about and just stop.

 

[Sean K]

Time to move to SW Tassie with no TV, Vis.

 

[visual]

You could be right there.
But what assurances have i got these morons wont be interested in that part of the world for training purposes,thats what they rely on,isn`t ?

 

[Rafa]

Has this ever happened in other parts of the world though in the name of religion and culture?

Sure it has... people fight, and they pick whatever reason they can... you said it yourself...

almost all wars are fought becuase of greed, jealousy, the need to have more, the good old principles that capitalism are founded on.....

however almost all wars are explained away on other reasons...!!!
self preservation
nationalism
cultural preservation
religions preservation


If your looking for root causes tho... you can't go much wrong with good old human nature!


SW tassie you say...
i might join ya there...

 

[Prospector]

Interesting point Rafa.

Has this ever happened in other parts of the world though in the name of religion and culture?

Oh yeah! Try googling Sri Lanka - has been in civil war since 1983 because the Tamils, who were introduced to SL by the British to farm their precious tea, want a separate state from Sri Lanka.

Fiji - where the Indians were brought in to farm the sugar cane because the Indigenous population werent interested - again - the British at fault

Rafa is spot on - there are many instances of just his point!

 

[visual]

so its established then,the poms,not only oppressed people exploited them and so on,but also taught them how to wingh,dangerously!

 

[kitehigh]

Sometimes the answers as to how many things happen is to research them in depth - if you have the time.

Many of the aircraft bombing Lebanon refueled at Glasgow Prestwick Airport in Scotland and are backed up, in supplies, from the former Royal Airforce Base at Kent International Airport in England. Both Airports are owned by New Zealand's " Infratil " and the Airports are fully managed, on Infratil's behalf, by the United States Company " HRL Morrison ".

It does seem, after President Bush's apology to the UK Prime minster, Tony Blair, that they refuelled without the UK's approval, and Managers " HRL Morrison " gave permission for the aircraft to land with Infratil's knowledge.

I don't know where you got your info in regards to the aircraft boming lebanon, refueling at Glasgow. Thats just sounds plain wrong. Israel doesn't have long range strategic bombers. I think you have it mixed up with the transport planes that are flying in the smart bombs from America on route to Israel.
It is a crazy world though that we live in, where one country gives aid with one hand to ease the pain and suffering and then supplies the weapons to the other country to bring about the same that very same suffering.

 

[Rafa]

so its established then,the poms,not only oppressed people exploited them and so on,but also taught them how to wingh,dangerously!

yes, its important to not dwell too much on things visual and worry too much about why things happen....

it happens cause its in our nature...

i mean, if its not religion (muslim vs jews vs christian vs hindu vs buddhist), its ideology (capitalism vs communism vs socialiosm vs democracy vs dictatorism), or its nationalism (japs vs chinese vs germans vs english vs french vs russia)...

man will always find a good reason to go to war... to serve his own selfish needs...

the person who wins is the one with righteous cause....
and the righteous cause is the one of the winner!


so... we must make sure we win!

 

[Julia]

yes, its important to not dwell too much on things visual and worry too much about why things happen....

it happens cause its in our nature...

i mean, if its not religion (muslim vs jews vs christian vs hindu vs buddhist), its ideology (capitalism vs communism vs socialiosm vs democracy vs dictatorism), or its nationalism (japs vs chinese vs germans vs english vs french vs russia)...

man will always find a good reason to go to war... to serve his own selfish needs...

the person who wins is the one with righteous cause....
and the righteous cause is the one of the winner!


so... we must make sure we win!

Rafa

I wouldn't have picked you for the cynical tone of this post. So we can justify any means towards our end? And we are not even motivated by something as lofty as religious ideals? It's all about power?

Julia

 

[visual]

And yet having said all that,all that the normal everyday people want is to be left alone.According to catalyst tonight, Iraqis in Baghdad just want to be able to have shave wear whatever clothes takes their fancy and be free.

Yet are living in an eviroment of fear just like the rest of us,this sentiment is portrayed over and over again when the media actually goes out and asks normal people ,so why the hell do their leaders act like such morons!

On lateline again on ABC one of the ministers actually referred to hesbollah as a resistance force!IDIOT,according to him,reading between the lines that is ,people are being killed ,well according to him its worth it,really.I felt like kicking him,unfortunately my television would`ve taken the impact so I tought better of it.

So really the biggest problem in the middle east is that people are being kept hostages by these morons,
I got the feeling that given the chance they`d have absolutely no problem having a proper life.It should`nt come as a surprise but when all we get is people telling us that they have a problem with this and that you tend to forget.How silly.

 

[Prospector]

according to him,reading between the lines that is ,people are being killed ,well according to him its worth it,really.I felt like kicking him,unfortunately my television would`ve taken the impact so I tought better of it.

Well, I am thinking we should go back to the days when the people forcing these wars on us (ie the Kings of old, the Prime Ministers/Presidents of now) have to actually take part in the battle themselves - like Braveheart for instance leading the charge. Then the physical and brutal impact of the war becomes a reality for them.

These days, it is all so hi-tech that leaders (and the general public too) watch TV showing lights indicating the blowing up buildings on a television screen, like an advanced computer game. They dont see the bodies, the blood, and cant hear the screams of the people anymore so forget that their hitech equipment is actually killing people. It is war by remote control!