The Middle East and Western Asia: Bit of a hot spot?

[ironchef]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Firstly, watch this: http://www.ericblumrich.com/thanks.html

Secondly, Syriana was an excellent film. However it failed to highlight the Israeli Lobby's level of influence in the US's international involvements.

Thirdly, the US/Israel are no more trust worthy than Iran. We are all exposed to the US/Israeli news and media, so our brains are being washed in the manner they see fit. We've never seen Iranian news to see their point of view.

I see on WESTERN NEWS what the Israelis do to the stone-throwing palestinians in palestinian territories, imagine all the things they do that we AREN'T shown... These people have nuclear weapons, why aren't we worried about that?? So far the iranians have been all talk... with Israel, we have SEEN THE LEVEL OF THEIR MALLICE!! We all saw what they did to lebanon. Collective punishment at its most extreme!

George Galloway tells it straight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNiNS8TnJnI

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

I agree with you about the level of what is broadcast in western news it is biased , but the freedom of information is far more restrictive in Palestine , Iran and China. But it could be said that having a certain level of control over a countries population could limit violence.

I mean you dont have militias roaming the streets of Israel or the US (I'm not saying that there are no problems or violence). And while i dont agree with what Israel did to Lebanon the fact is they still acted as one country and are not having armed conflicts between their own citizens.

The fact is their is no clear governing power in either Lebanon or Palestine.

You say the US and Israel are no more trustworthy than Iran but i know what countries i would rather be allied with and living in.

And the awful truth is that if America weren't the dominant power in the world someone else would be and they would probably have project vastly different ideals upon the world.

Really the problems come down to the leaders of these countries, and at least we can elect our leaders and thus project the views of our whole population not just those of the few which may not reflect the views of the majority.

A good example of this is the US elections people didn't like the way the war is going so they elect another party.

And one last point would you protest against the goverment if you were living in Iran or China without fear of reprisal?

 

[kgee]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Yeah, they are in the movie and the US manage to manipulate the Arabs to veto the contract to keep them out.

Apart from the movie, I'm not sure if they are physically in there yet. Certainly in parts of Africa.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "physically" but my understanding was the chinese have big gas contracts with Iran...or were you suggesting a military presence?

 

[Sean K]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "physically" but my understanding was the chinese have big gas contracts with Iran...or were you suggesting a military presence?

Not necessarily military, but that would certainly be a majopr part in them having more influence in the region. The US has bases all over the place in the Middle East. China may be in there in the future, as I think energy security will be just as important to China in 20 years as it is to the US today. Unless someone discovers some elephant fields outside of the Middle East.....

At the moment, I mean having significant business interests where they might be controlling the flow of money or having economic influence, etc. Gas contracts would be a start.

 

[toc_bat]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

funny how isreals potential use of nuclear weapons is not seen in the same horrible light of irans potential nucelar program which may potetnially give them weapons which isreal already has!!!

funny how we cant trust iran to have weapons beacause they are SURE to use them beacause they are bad people, yet america has already used them however they remain responsible and good, and isreal may use them and they so far remain justified in potentially using them because their use will be intelligent and well thought out,

every time i see a debate in the western world about these issues it is flawed from the very beginning because the inital assumption is always that we are right and they are wrong, until this uderlying bias is removed there will never be any progress, talk to an irani, they are not difficult to find in australia, youll find they are pretty reasonable people on the whole, and this bias against them is not lost on them, they are not stupid, until we loose our rightousness we will never impress them,

iran has so far not breached any condition of the nuclear non proliferation traety they are a signatory to, the same treaty india has not signed yet has over 50 real warheads, the same treaty the USA is constantly undermining,

if we keep putting all this unfair and unreasonable pressure on iran, lets not forget the iranians have just witnessed their iraqi neighbours brutally destryed by US and the USA for fraudulent reasons, and the USA is constantly making noises about iran being next, gee imagine how we would see things if that happened in new zealand, well all i can say is IRAN get those nukes ASAP, cos that is the only thing that will save you, North Korea is only around because it has nukes so hurry up and build them fast.

 

[kgee]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Well maybe there presence is been felt as it was my understanding that the UN have not set up trade sanctions against Iran as both China and Russia would vetoe it?
I know this might be going outside the boundaries of the thread but its my belief that Israels attacks against Hezzbolah was as much a show of aggresion to give Iran second thoughts about their nucleur programme as it was against hezzbolah or should I say it went part and parcel
but please my understanding on the middle east is very general and very limited

 

[toc_bat]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

do people realise that hezbola apart from being a rampant and evil terrorist org which controls certain areas of southern lebanon actually takes care of basic municipal requirements in those areas such as schooling, health, fire fighting, roads, drainage, gees bit more than just terrorists i reckon, more like a little country of its own. a country with an army. isnt that the big difference between terorists and an official army? ie australian soldiers are not terrorists because they have the backing of a country a governement a parliament. thats really all there is to it, if uve got a country, if you have an offical uniform you are an army, any one else you are a terrorist.

all we ever get told is how bad they are we never EVER EVER get told what it is they want to achive, what their philosophies are, what their general message is,

i mean gee people who throw stones at tanks must be extremely bad, those poor tanks! why is it that when people who use the most advanced weaponry, tanks, jet fighters, computer controlled missles, air craft carriers, nuclear submarines, armies of highly skilled and higly supplied and supported men, well these are the good guys!!! ha, and noe of the above are weapons of mass destruction, no sir reeeee bob, they are all designed to keep the peace not destroy en mass.

remeber Yasser Arafat? what was he about? what was his message? did we ever get told that in the australian media? in england at least one newspaper i saw published one of his speeches, translated.

it is only when we stop mindless barracking for OUR side just because its OUR side will these problems even begin to get a look in at getting solved. And since we are constantly the ones sending troops to other peoples lands to sort out their problems than we are the ones who must make the first move. lets not forget all this stuff is rooted in 400 years of european colonialism, its our tradition we must address, we are the ones with the cash, with the shiniest warplanes, ships, tanks and bombs, its up to us to make the first move.

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Toc bat you point out that America has already used Nuclear weapons and that it is in effect hypocritical of them to call other people bad for having them but the fact is they were justified to use them.

The Japanese at that time were essentially imperialist extremeist and would have sacrificed every Japanese soul to inflict massive casulties against America (they didn't even start the war)

I dont believe it comes down to who's right or who's wrong but the fact of how they would use them. For instance this so called report comes out saying Israel is going to blow up nuclear facilities where as the president of Iran makes open comments of the destruction of Israel with almost direct implications of the use of nuclear weapons. His exact words were "wiped of the map" i believe. Countries have nuclear weapons to deter war

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

If Hezbollah is such a humanitarian organisation why do they need guns and rockets why not just join the Red crescent and help people that way. They are obviously a political group.

The help people to build support for their cause and their ideology. Hand out bread in one hand and an AK to a 15 year old in the other.

 

[toc_bat]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

kiwikarlos,

the same goes for every single country in the world, why does australia and even anti nuclear new zealand need weapons and soldiers and ships and war planes? again all i see is bias, the tests we constantly apply to others are rarely applied to ourselves,

even the naked primitive peoples of the world carry weapons and use them against their neighbours, the idea that hezbolah should be angelic and weapon free is preposterous, even the vatican city has soldiers, granted they are swiss and are supplied with 16th century garb, just like beefeaters, but the symbology is there! even the catholic church, the pope wants symbols of war or agression in his backyard!

 

[ironchef]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Back during the days of the cold war, there was always talk of "Destroying the Soviet Union". Is that not just as bad as saying "wiping israel off the map"? I'm sure the iranian presedent is talking about crippling the israeli governement, much like how the west was implying the removal of the communist reigime.

15 year old boys in lebanon have sufferred and seen more violence and injustice than most of us here in Australia can imagine. Go look at PHOTOs of south lebanon after the israeli massacres and then think to yourself: what is there left for a 15 year old boy to do? People over there don't have the opportunities that we enjoy over here, ESPECIALLY children.

Terrorism is farce to scare gullable westerners into submitting to the needs of the powerful.

Thanks to the internet, more and more westerners are begining to be more objective in thier thinking. We are being more open minded and becoming less and less gullable.

 

[toc_bat]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

the word terrorist was coined by the King of England to describe George Washington,

the germans could have easily - if they did, i dont know - described the actions of the heroic french resistance as terrorist,

i was born in czechoslovakia, moved to australia at age 8, so have some insight into the thinking of at least the czechoslovaks when they were still behind the iron curtain, and according to all the personal research i have done, ie gasbaged into many wee hours, i have come to the conclusion that the ordinary people of that country whilst it was communist were not at all afraid or convinced that they will be attacked by the americans.

but i beleive from my insight into american culture that there were many americans who during the cold war did beleive all the messages they got from school and culture, movies etc that the reds were under the bed and that attack was iminent. czechoslovak cinema for eg, although highly state controlled and censored was not even approaching the levels of hype american movies were at, at constantly pulling out the theme of russian invasion. attacking vietnam was all about the communist spread in the world right?

anyway why did the american power structures find it so neceseray to hype up the russian threat when counterparts in czechoslovakia at least did not.

i fear it is for that same reason that they are now hyping the arab/persian threat. and after all if they invade iran, then all that hype will naturally be justified, for the time being anyway.

have we all forgotten that back in the 80s Hussein was "Our man in the mid east".

I spent time in the defence forces, and beleive me, when america sold all that hardware to Husseins Iraq, it doesnt just get shipped in anonymous crates, it comes with many thousands of hours of military advisor instruction, showing those iraqi pilots exactly just how to drop those gas charges on those pesky Kurds.

 

[kgee]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

iran has so far not breached any condition of the nuclear non proliferation traety they are a signatory to, the same treaty india has not signed yet has over 50 real warheads, the same treaty the USA is constantly undermining,

Iran hasn't breached any rules but it would be naive to think that part of their nucleur ambitions is not to equip themselves with a nucleur arsenal.
So far Iran has rejected offers from Russia to do the enrichment their as well as rejecting proposals to use non enriched uranium...both these suggestions had they been accepted would see the west+israel back off
Personally I don't want to see Iran equiped with nucleur weapons (or any other nation)
We could argue all day as to their right to be armed but where will this stop and what countries will be next...I'm quite sure theres a handfull more countries that would like them

 

[johnno261]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Iran hasn't breached any rules but it would be naive to think that part of their nucleur ambitions is not to equip themselves with a nucleur arsenal.
So far Iran has rejected offers from Russia to do the enrichment their as well as rejecting proposals to use non enriched uranium...both these suggestions had they been accepted would see the west+israel back off
Personally I don't want to see Iran equiped with nucleur weapons (or any other nation)
We could argue all day as to their right to be armed but where will this stop and what countries will be next...I'm quite sure theres a handfull more countries that would like them

Set for disaster, i dont think so, fighting is a part of their culture and has been for decades and will be for decades!!!!!

 

[Sean K]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Set for disaster, i dont think so, fighting is a part of their culture and has been for decades and will be for decades!!!!!

Israel nuking Iran wouldn't be disaster?

Although I personally believe this would be a very doubtful scenario, the region is capable of exploding at the drop of a hat and I think we were lucky that the Lebanon thingy did not get further out of hand. Israel could easily have started bombing logistics routes and potential support bases for Hezbollah right into Syria. That would have dragged in other players and galvanised Arabs throughout the region. Perhaps one of the reasons this didn't occur was Israel being aware of the consequences, or that the US were pulling the strings to such an extent that it was not permitted.

I agree they will be fighting forever, until one party is annihilated, but that's unlikely with the current balance of power.

 

[Buster]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

G'Day Kiwi,

kiwikarlos,

the same goes for every single country in the world, why does australia and even anti nuclear new zealand need weapons and soldiers and ships and war planes?

Our forces are in place as a deterrent to other forces and for self defence, simple as that.. There is no chance Aust and NZ (even together) could mount an offensive against another country with the numbers in our Defence Force.. You'd probably be surprised to find that our government actually requires our forces to be, and appear, quite passive, so as not to alienate our neighbours.. For Instance, the FFG has only one 'offensive' weapon, and that would be the Harpoon Missile, every other weapon system is for self defence (of the ship)..

Back on topic, I agree with a great deal of the opinions expressed on this thread, it good to see some free thinkers that have not had opinions formed for them by the majority of the media. I was serving in the US just prior to the latest launch into Iraq, and as you can imagine my US counterparts were all quite excited about 'kicking some ass'.. I just couldn’t get through to them that because these people didn't eat KFC and Dunkin Donuts didn't make them 'the barbarians' that they were being portrayed in the US media..

As has been said, power plays and greed are mostly responsible the the mess we find ourselves in the ME..


Regards,

Buster

 

[2020hindsight]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

...I was serving in the US just prior to the latest launch into Iraq, and as you can imagine my US counterparts were all quite excited about 'kicking some ass'.. I just couldn’t get through to them that because these people didn't eat KFC and Dunkin Donuts didn't make them 'the barbarians' that they were being portrayed in the US media..

top post, buster.
I still think that Fahrenheit 9/11 should be compulsory viewing - multiple viewing by all aussies, until the message sinks in that the US military is not the answer. If you want to win hearts and minds, keep them out of it !
imho, Aussies are better, (eg East Timor), and UN peacekeeping forces are best.
Not that I'd like to trade places with a UN peacekeeper, whilst the world's extremists only want to stir up wasps nests all around you.

 

[toc_bat]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

Set for disaster, i dont think so, fighting is a part of their culture and has been for decades and will be for decades!!!!!

Johno,

how can you be be so simple? Fighting is part of their culture?? Ha what a joke,

lets look at aussie culture shall we,

Australia took part in just about every conflict there was on the cards for the last 100 years, and none of these had virtually anything to do with Australia.

Lets see, aussie soldiers were in :

The Boer war, boxer uprising, World war One, World War two, The malaysian emergency, indonesian confrontation, the korean war, the vietnam war, Iraq one, Iraq two, Timor, PNG tribal conflicts including Bouganville,

Many young aussie men went into WWI with a sense of adventure, to see the world! In fact there were many documented cases of under age soldiers who lied about their age just to get in. So not at all part of aussie culture to be involved in just about any fight going is it. Iran and co is this what they do? Attack just about anybody anywhere on the globe whenever england or the US blows the whistle?

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

everybody knows George Bush is dodgy and that it takes money and the backing of big players to be the president of America.

I hear alot of people here critisizing the American values and the way they do things but has anybody got a viable better alternative.

How did Saddam Hussien, the Iatolla (wrong spelling) of Iran, Taleban leader, Pakistani president all get to the head of power in their respective countries ? All by use of force.

In my opinion anyone who uses religeon as a reason for persecution and violence is wrong, there should be a clear seperation of religeon and state.

I know christian, jewish and many other religeous groups have alot of persuasive say in politics both in America and here in Australia but one thing that most western countries have in common is they are fairly tolerant and moderate of all religeons.

If everyone is so anti American you might be interested to know that each year America admits more legal imigrants in than all the other countries of the world put together. Its a fact that many of these people want to go there because they will have better opportunities than in most other countries.

They are by no way perfect but when compared to totallitarian governments like that of Iran they are much better. On a final note i believe the current Iranian government is holding the country back and i would honestly not have a problem with them having nukes if the leadership was a more moderate perhapes democratic government.

 

[wayneL]

Re: The Middle East - Set for disaster - again

everybody knows George Bush is dodgy and that it takes money and the backing of big players to be the president of America.

I hear alot of people here critisizing the American values and the way they do things but has anybody got a viable better alternative.

How did Saddam Hussien, the Iatolla (wrong spelling) of Iran, Taleban leader, Pakistani president all get to the head of power in their respective countries ? All by use of force.

In my opinion anyone who uses religeon as a reason for persecution and violence is wrong, there should be a clear seperation of religeon and state.

I know christian, jewish and many other religeous groups have alot of persuasive say in politics both in America and here in Australia but one thing that most western countries have in common is they are fairly tolerant and moderate of all religeons.

If everyone is so anti American you might be interested to know that each year America admits more legal imigrants in than all the other countries of the world put together. Its a fact that many of these people want to go there because they will have better opportunities than in most other countries.

They are by no way perfect but when compared to totallitarian governments like that of Iran they are much better. On a final note i believe the current Iranian government is holding the country back and i would honestly not have a problem with them having nukes if the leadership was a more moderate perhapes democratic government.

How quaint and old fashioned. The problem is that the US is no longer the country we knew and loved. It is now the most dangerous country on the planet, (perhaps except the nation of Israel)

Many of her people are truly magnificent and struggle to maintain many of the ideals you refer to.

Approximately half however, are diabolical bastids that are no better than the Ayotollahs et al. Unfortunately, these are the clowns in power.

Cheers
Wayne (ex Yank)