The Health and Fitness Thread

gav · 4 May 2009

helicart said:
Hey Gav, what's the latest in the body building fraternity regarding the protein sparing effect of carbs?

Even amongst top level bodybuilding identities there are mixed opinions. Like weight loss, there are many schools of thought, and many different diets people have had success with. Some believe carbs are almost unnecessary, and stick to a keto style diet. I have quite a few friends that use CKD (cyclic keto diets) which is basically a keto style diet with 2 large "carb up" meals per week. (I trialled this myself for a number of months last year)

However the majority understand the importance of carbs and its protein sparing qualities. The main benefits from a bodybuilders point of view:
- Carbs assist in the delivery/absorption of protein
- Carbs are the best way to replenish glycogen. If glycogen is not replenished through carbs (or fat), protein will be used to replenish glycogen, instead of repairing muscle

Bare in mind that bodybuilders manipulate their physique through diet and training in ways that are not always considered "healthy". It varies from person to person, but I believe the majority are very health conscious - which many of the general public don't seem to understand.

Y.T. · 5 May 2009

helicart said:
OK, that's how you took the weight off.....

If you do full time office work and regular housework and leisure activity with no more than 3 hours of walking a week, your Calorie expenditure would be about 1900 Cals a day.

If you still do 20,40,40, that means you have to take in around 85 grams of fat a day.

That is a hell of a lot of fat.

Can you give me an example of your food intake now....

The diet i am following is the Testosterone Advantage Plan by Lou Schuler.

It pretty much tells you for every kg you should have 2 grams of protein and then divide the fat and carbohydrates into the rest.

The reason you give carbs and fat equality, as Lou states:

"First, Fat is crucial for testosterone production, carbohydrates are not. Second, Good fats are good for your heart, and studies show, for your mood and general well-being. Third, fat is the slowest to leave your body. While protein may make you feel full fastest, fat makes you stay full the longest."

I'm not saying this is the best diet or anything, but it worked for me and is continually working.

Right now my current plan is 30p/35f/35c and it is working great for me.

This book is really great and very interesting.

bowman · 5 May 2009

There seems to be some archaeological evidence that late Paleo people gathered wild grasses.

http://www.archaeology.org/0409/newsbriefs/seeds.html

http://www.atlantisquest.com/Agriculture.html

But putting that aside and focusing on the nutritional aspect of grains and cereals (I can live without dairy for the most part) I'm having a look at Sprouted Grain Breads which seem to have nutritional advantages over traditional flour based breads.

Does anyone have any experience or recommendations with these?

gav · 5 May 2009

Y.T. said:
The diet i am following is the Testosterone Advantage Plan by Lou Schuler.

It pretty much tells you for every kg you should have 2 grams of protein and then divide the fat and carbohydrates into the rest.

The reason you give carbs and fat equality, as Lou states:

"First, Fat is crucial for testosterone production, carbohydrates are not. Second, Good fats are good for your heart, and studies show, for your mood and general well-being. Third, fat is the slowest to leave your body. While protein may make you feel full fastest, fat makes you stay full the longest."

I'm not saying this is the best diet or anything, but it worked for me and is continually working.

Right now my current plan is 30p/35f/35c and it is working great for me.

This book is really great and very interesting.

And this is why many bodybuilders and athletes use a lot of healthy fats in their diet. You've obviously done your research YT, and have made a complete lifestyle change. Congrats

helicart · 5 May 2009

Check the heart blood flow scans at 9.22 on this Ornish talk.

motorway · 5 May 2009

bowman said:
There seems to be some archaeological evidence that late Paleo people gathered wild grasses.

http://www.archaeology.org/0409/newsbriefs/seeds.html

http://www.atlantisquest.com/Agriculture.html

But putting that aside and focusing on the nutritional aspect of grains and cereals (I can live without dairy for the most part) I'm having a look at Sprouted Grain Breads which seem to have nutritional advantages over traditional flour based breads.

Does anyone have any experience or recommendations with these?

Paleo people could not expend more energy in getting and preparing food than they could get from eating same food

No doubt there was some uses of seed ( certainly nuts )

Also there were no Silos
So all grain seeds would be sprouting to some extent

When you sprout a seed
The starch locked up in the seed
is converted to sugars
( eg Malt )

The seed becomes like a vegetable or fruit

However My concern would be with moulds
Those visible and invisible

modern paleo diet

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/JANA final.pdf

bowman · 6 May 2009

Sleep your way to a thin body.

It looks as though the amount and quality of your sleep has an effect on the levels of the hormones leptin and ghrelin - which are responsible for your feelings of fullness or hunger.

I've been a cr@p sleeper ever since I briefly traded US markets a couple of years ago - not that I'm making excuses.

There is significant research being done in hormone treatments to suppress appetite and it's quite probable that new generations of weight loss drugs will go down this road.

It's no substitute for a good diet and exercise of course but it may eventually help people to change their eating habits.

http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/guide/lose-weight-while-sleeping

http://thyroid.about.com/library/news/blhormonediet.htm

helicart · 6 May 2009

This is a bodybuilder and gym owner I've known since I was a kid. Watch him blow up and burst a hot water at the age of 61.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uhpl9l4Av4&feature=PlayList&p=6786CB6B08A594F6&index=0

He's been doing strong man stuff for years.....in the Guiness Book of records etc.

He's been eating 35%+ animal protein diet since I first met him in the 70s.

Recently he has had 1 deep venous thrombosis and 2 life threatening pulmonary embolism incidents where he needed to be hospitalized.

Here's another guy who was a great friend of my mentor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKr9qDL6_h4&feature=PlayList&p=456BFB7D3F989E84&index=0
He died last year at 81......

Here's one of the greatest body builders in history, still going strong at 79....
http://www.billpearl.com/career.asp

What do these three men have in common?
They were all extraordinarily strong men.

The last two share something the first doesn't...

vegetarianism

motorway · 6 May 2009

I remember reading some bios of famous strong men & Body Builders

And what characterized them was significant dairy consumption

and often early death ( under 80 )
Often strokes and heart

They drank lots and lots of milk and cheese etc

All proteins are not equal..

Some cause significant damage

Of the training manuals some of them wrote

Daily consumption of cheese and milk

often quarts at a time

eg

I realize you are anxious to build up great strength and power as soon as possible. Here is a simple secret which should help give you the results you hope for. It is a special food which you should take regularly. . . . It is a natural food product, and, taken under the simple directions I am advocating, will produce results nothing short of marvelous. This unique food is MILK. Yes, milk is this secret health builder. By its use in large quantities you can build a NEW PERFECT BODY of SOUND FLESH and MUSCLE.

Charles Atlas, Lesson 2

Too many studies on diet
have used Milk products as the animal protein

( It is easy to uses in animal studies and human studies too
just mix the powdered milk )

When for Cordain for example it is more damaging than Soy protein
and not a natural food for Humans at all

eg

Fat intake is not the only dietary factor that affects the atherosclerotic process in animal
experiments. Many trials have shown that casein promotes atherosclerosis more than soy
protein [43], and that meat proteins are less atherogenic than soy
protein and casein [44]. Hence, meat may be less atherogenic than soy beans, low fat milk
and high fat milk, in that order.

The unfavourable impact of milk protein on serum
cholesterol and atherosclerosis is commonly referred to as an effect of ‘animal protein’.
However, the studies cited suggest that the term ‘animal protein’ is insufficiently specific
and should be abandoned.

DYOR just for Discussion

motorway

motorway · 6 May 2009

Some points

Ten thousand years ago the Agricultural Revolution was the beginning of a drastic change in the human diet that continues to this day. Today more than 70% of our dietary calories come from foods that our Paleolithic (Stone Age) ancestors rarely, if ever, ate. The result is epidemic levels of cardiovascular disease, cancer, diabetes, osteoporosis, arthritis, gastrointestinal disease, acne, and more.

Loren Cordain, Ph.D., is widely acknowledged as a leading expert on the diet of our Paleolithic ancestors. In numerous publications in the world's best scientific journals, he has documented the dramatic health benefits of eating a diet consistent with human genetic evolution. A diet based on lean meats, seafood, fresh fruits, and fresh vegetables can lead to ideal body weight, optimum health, and peak athletic performance.

With readily available modern foods, The Paleo Diet mimics the types of foods every single person on the planet ate prior to the Agricultural Revolution (a mere 500 generations ago).

These foods (fresh fruits, vegetables, lean meats, and seafood) are high in the beneficial nutrients (soluble fiber, antioxidant vitamins, phytochemicals, omega-3 and monounsaturated fats, and low-glycemic carbohydrates) that promote good health and are low in the foods and nutrients (refined sugars and grains, saturated and trans fats, salt, high-glycemic carbohydrates, and processed foods) that frequently may cause weight gain, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and numerous other health problems. The Paleo Diet encourages dieters to replace dairy and grain products with fresh fruits and vegetables -- foods that are more nutritious than whole grains or dairy products.

On Milk

D a i r y P ro d u c t s : New F i n d i n g s
In addition to having a potent insulin response, similar
to eating a slice of white bread, a recent dietary
intervention showed that a high milk diet for only seven
days caused insulin resistance in a group of 24 eightyear-
old boys.

Milk is essentially filtered blood and as such contains the
full complement of hormones that are also present in
blood. Traditional theory held that consumption of
cow’s milk would not result in the transfer of cow
hormones into human circulation for a number of
reasons....(BUT)

On Health aspects

photographs of Aborigines on their native diets illustrate dental structures so perfect as to make the reader wonder whether these natives were wearing false teeth. But like all the other primitive groups Price studied, the Aborigines soon succumbed to rampant tooth decay and disease of every type when they adopted the “displacing foods of modern commerce” -- white flour and sugar, jams, canned foods and tea. Children born to the next generation developed irregularities of the dental arches with conspicuous facial deformities -- patterns that mimicked those seen in white civilizations.

early explorers reported the Aborigines to be “well formed; their limbs are straight and muscular, their bodies erect; their heads well shaped; the features are generally good; teeth regular, white and sound.

They are capable of undergoing considerable fatigue and privations in their wanderings, marching together considerable distances.”12

Many observers reported their great dexterity and acute eyesight, which enabled them to see stars that the white man can see only with the telescope, and animals moving at a distance of a mile, which civilized man cannot see at all.

An early Australian settler named Philip Chancy reported several examples of the extraordinary “quickness of sight and suppleness and agility of limb and muscle” in the Aborigines, including an Aborigine who stood as a target for cricket-balls thrown with force by professional bowlers at only ten to fifteen yards and yet successfully dodged them or parried them off with a small shield for at least half an hour.

Other natives threw cricket balls at great distances, and outdid “the best circus performers by bounding from a spring board in a somersault over eleven horses standing side by side.”

Just for Discussion

motorway

helicart · 6 May 2009

motorway;431052DYOR just for Discussion :) said:
motorway

In the 70s when I first tried to bulk up, it was all milk and sugar based drinks with amino acids, like sustagen...and the hot water bottle blower made a stack out of selling blended drinks in the gym- milk, egg, honey, whey protein, skim milk powder, dolomite, crushed vitamins, banana, vanilla essence, and that great profit margin booster, ice

Often the guys had rattly chests and needed to cough a lot of phlegm.

And processed cheese certainly is packed with fat.

So yes, I agree the dairy have been done to death in the past.....

helicart · 6 May 2009

It helps to be careful interpreting observations such as the health of Aboriginals and their physical prowess.

There's natural selection thing going on here, where gene expression of inadequate traits is deselected. i.e. a person of smaller or weaker stature but nonetheless more intelligent, would more than likely be deselected in an environment where alpha male trait and inter tribal fighting over territory and women was the norm over 10s of thousands of years.

To attribute superior physical traits primarily to diet, is not necessarily correct. But I agree that Aboriginals are hardier than caucasians in general. I have worked in regional Qld in hospitals and have seen Aboriginals calmly present with all manner of trauma and illness that would have caucasians screaming in pain...

gav · 6 May 2009

Why bodybuilders dont use Soy protein:

Soy protein has a BV (biological value) of 74. BV is the most accurate indicator of biological activity of protein and measures the actual amount of protein deposited per gram of protein absorbed. High BV proteins are better for nitrogen retention, immunity, IGF-1 simulation, and are superior for reducing lean tissue loss during various wasting states. It is less anti-catabolic than high BV proteins.

One reason Soy is so low on the BV is because it lacks methionine (sulphur containing amino acid). Sulphur containing amino acids are very important for protein synthesis and growth, immune system function, and the bodies production of glutathione. Glutathione is one of the most powerful anti-oxidants in the body. It protects cells and detoxifies harmful compounds such as hydrogen peroxide, carcinogens, and others. It is also responsible for helping keep LDL from oxidising and clogging arteries.

Soy also contains lectins and protease inhibitors. Lectins can interfere with the absorption of important nutrients and even cause intestinal damage. Protease are enzymes that aid in the digestion of proteins.

Soy is rich in estrogenic compounds like genistein and diadzein. As many bodybuilders will already know, a change in the testosterone/estrogen balance towards estrogen can lead to increased bodyfat and other ill effects as it relates to strength related goals.

BV of common bodybuilding proteins compared to Soy:
Whey - 104
Whole Egg - 100
Egg White - 88
Casein - 77
Soy - 74

Also, here is a link that suggests Soy does not prevent cardio-vascular related disease as has been claimed in the past, is highly allergenic and can also be a contributing factor towards breast cancer:
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_badnews.html

gouryella · 6 May 2009

Interesting reading, particularly with regard to dairy products.

I have recently come off a 'diet' I was on over the last few months that allowed me to lose around 15kg since Nov-Dec '08. Don't ask me how I let myself get to such a state, but anyway... Over that time period all I basically ate was vegetables, red meat, chicken, oats, some fruit, tuna, whey protein, eggs, salad greens and cottage cheese.

I have since returned to more normal eating (not restricting calories I should say) and am currently drinking 1L of milk a day. I will be interested to see if this has an effect on my body composition, having read some of the quotes above, this one in particular...

D a i r y P ro d u c t s : New F i n d i n g s
In addition to having a potent insulin response, similar
to eating a slice of white bread, a recent dietary
intervention showed that a high milk diet for only seven
days caused insulin resistance in a group of 24 eightyear-
old boys.

Milk is essentially filtered blood and as such contains the
full complement of hormones that are also present in
blood. Traditional theory held that consumption of
cow’s milk would not result in the transfer of cow
hormones into human circulation for a number of
reasons....

Now, as far as I know weight training and other 'vigorous' exercise improves one's insulin sensitivity. Perhaps if that study had been performed on people such as myself, who partake in such activities, a similar outcome may not have eventuated? Also, my milk intake is timed around my training sessions (before and after) which could negate such negative impacts?

I know some bodybuilders, as well as athletes like marathon runners, consume simple sugars (dextrose etc) in a similar manner for energy and to utilise insulin for nutrient transport. I have done so in the past and consequently had noticable weight gain. I'd prefer to get sugars from natural food sources like fruit, milk etc where you also get additional vitamins and minerals etc.

Just trying to generate some discussion

Garpal Gumnut · 6 May 2009

I feel all body builders and fitness fanatics are over indulged narcissists.

Furthermore all these people on diets will be fit and live too long and clog up our nursing homes when they get the dementia.

I say, eat, drink and be merry and stop prancing around in silly lycra showing off your veins.

gg

helicart · 6 May 2009

Garpal Gumnut said:
I feel all body builders and fitness fanatics are over indulged narcissists.

Furthermore all these people on diets will be fit and live too long and clog up our nursing homes when they get the dementia.

I say, eat, drink and be merry and stop prancing around in silly lycra showing off your veins.

gg

Just keep consuming lots of fatty food and booze GG.

If prostate cancer or an MI doesn't take you out early, at least the circulation to your reproductive kit will be so compromised, you'll be shooting so many blanks you won't be able to perpetuate your values on Planet Earth. :rippergun

motorway · 6 May 2009

Gouryella

here is the full paper from which I took the Milk Quote

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Cordain US Dermatology Reviews.pdf

It is in the context of Acne

and Insulin resistance

Glycemic Index & load

Table 1 lists the glycemic indices and loads
of various foods and demonstrates that refined grain and
sugar products nearly always maintain much higher
glycemic loads than unprocessed fruits and vegetables.
From an endocrine perspective, the importance of the
glycemic index and load is that they are closely related to
the insulin response.23

An exception to this general rule
is dairy products, which exhibit low glycemic indices and
loads, but paradoxically elicit high insulin responses
similar to white bread.24

Highly glycemic and
insulinemic foods are ubiquitous elements in western
diets and comprise 47.7% of the per capita energy intake
in the US.25 Figure 2 shows how high glycemic and
insulinemic foods, including dairy products, set off a
hormonal cascade that may ultimately result in acne.

&

This esp

T h e E p i d e r m a l G rowth Fa c t o r R e c e p t o r

Only 12 short years have elapsed since the discovery that
humans bear a hormonal receptor in their gastrointestinal
tract called the epidermal growth factor receptor(EGFR).

This trans-membrane, hormonal receptor is
very unusual in that it is expressed luminally””meaning
that it faces the gut contents rather than the
bloodstream.29,30

The location of the EGFR puzzled scientists for years””why was it expressed luminally and what was its function?31 Since, hormones always arrive at
tissues from the circulation, why should the EGFR face
the gut contents, which in effect are outside the body?

It turns out that the primary function of the luminally
facing EGFR is to stimulate healing and maintain the
integrity of the cells lining the gastrointestinal tract30,32 In
humans, the primary source of the hormone (EGF)
which binds to the EGFR in the gut comes from saliva.33

Hence by swallowing saliva, the residual EGF contained
in saliva helps to maintain the integrity and promote
healing of the epithelial cells lining the gut.

The EGFR is a promiscuous receptor in that it doesn’t
just bind a single hormone (EGF), but rather binds a
large family of hormones--------------->

and this is where milk come into the story

----------->

Not hard to substitute other diseases of civilization
for ACNE

As for bones

In the U.S. calcium intake is one of the highest in the world, yet paradoxically we also have one of the highest rates of bone de-mineralization (osteoporosis). Bone mineral content is dependent not just upon calcium intake but upon net calcium balance (calcium intake minus calcium excretion). Most nutritionists focus upon the calcium intake side of the calcium balance equation, however few realize that the calcium excretion side of the equation is just as important.

Bone health is substantially dependent on dietary acid/base balance. All foods upon digestion ultimately must report to the kidney as either acid or base. When the diet yields a net acid load (such as low-carb fad diets that restrict consumption of fruits and vegetables), the acid must be buffered by the alkaline stores of base in the body.

Calcium salts in the bones represent the largest store of alkaline base in the body and are depleted and eliminated in the urine when the diet produces a net acid load.

The highest acid-producing foods are hard cheeses, cereal grains, salted foods, meats, and legumes, whereas the only alkaline, base-producing foods are fruits and vegetables.

Because the average American diet is overloaded with grains, cheeses, salted processed foods, and fatty meats at the expense of fruits and vegetables, it produces a net acid load and promotes bone de-mineralization. By replacing hard cheeses, cereal grains, and processed foods with plenty of green vegetables and fruits, the body comes back into acid/base balance which brings us also back into calcium balance.

The Paleo Diet recommends an appropriate balance of acidic and basic (alkaline) foods (i.e., lean meats, fish and seafood, fruits, and vegetables) and will not cause osteoporosis in otherwise healthy individuals. Indeed, The Paleo Diet promotes bone health.

No advice here

Just for discussion

motorway

gouryella · 6 May 2009

It's interesting, and certainly makes you wonder how much of today's advice will be considered or proven false in the future.

There are so many myths and conflicting opinions out there...

Don't eat chicken, it is full of hormones.
Eggs will give you high cholesterol.
Whole grain breads (or any breads for that matter) are healthy.
Tuna and other fish will give you mercury poisoning.
Too much red meat will give you bowel cancer.
Fruit and vegetables are full of pesticides.
Pasta and rice should be dietary staples.
Drinking wine regularly is good for you.
Soy is a health food.
Too much protein will cause kidney damage.
Consuming fat makes you fat.

Problem is you can probably find just as many studies both for and against most of the above.

helicart · 7 May 2009

gouryella said:
Problem is you can probably find just as many studies both for and against most of the above.

And that's why you want to weight moreso the opinion of scientists who specialize in the field. It is a complex field, that great profit can be made from, because it is of great interest to the public, so the media and health enthusiasts tend to jump all over a single study, and distort its relative value.

The last point is very important when you consider the greatest contributor to morbidity and mortality in modern man is artherosclerosis, and the role of low grade inflammatory states in this....as well as its role in a growing incidence of allergy and food sensitivity conditions.

It may be that a food's content of omega 6 PUFAs, or the omega 6 to 3 ratio, or food content of bioflavinoids,anti-oxidants, phytochemicals, carotenoids, retinols, isoflavins, and lycopene, is more important to health than that food's glycemic index or protein quality.

Why? because omega6 carry arachidonic acid which is the key substrate for the inflammatory cascade by production of the eicosanoids - prostaglandins, thromboxanes, and the particularly troublesome leukotrienes. And the bioflavonoids etc have excellent anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant qualites.

But then, the time and expense one takes to optimize dietary PUFAs might be trivial in its effects on dampening inflammation, in comparison to a daily dose of 30-100mg aspirin.

And then, little attention is paid to the relative role sleep plays in health. Staying up late, not getting enough sleep, and not dealing with stressors have serious effects on the absorption of nutrient through the lumen of the jejunum and low grade inflammation.

Optimal health really has a symphony of influences and it doesn't pay to get hung up on one quality or another of food.

And then there's always the role of genetics, that grant each of us a different capacity to overcome diet and lifestyle indiscretions...

bowman · 7 May 2009

Stress is an interesting one - in particular with regards to traders.

I've noticed I am far more relaxed these days and I put it down to a number of factors including early morning walks, dumbbell workouts, better nutrition and interestingly, my recent switch from swing trading to (mostly) daytrading.

Yes folks, daytrading is not stressful. Particularly at the end of the day when you know that your capital will still be there for tomorrow.

http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20070407-16071.html

The Health and Fitness Thread

gav

Y.T.

"Impossible is Nothing..."

bowman

gav

helicart

motorway

bowman

helicart

motorway

motorway

helicart

helicart

gav

gouryella

Garpal Gumnut

Ross Island Hotel

helicart

motorway

gouryella

helicart

bowman

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