The Health and Fitness Thread

[bowman]

Something just occured to me and I would like you guys to comment.

I'm loosly following the caveman diet, which excludes dairy and grains and cereals.

Now of course grains and cerelas became a major part of the human diet when we developed agriculture, and I think it's been suggested that excess weight first became a problem after the development of agriculture.

The question I have is, do we blame the grains and cereals for the weight gain, or is the problem that agriculture provided us with a LOT of these foods, so that we began eating them when we wanted them, rather than when we needed them.

So is it the foods themselves, or our excessive use of these agricultural foods that makes us fat?

 

[Pappon]

So is it the foods themselves, or our excessive use of these agricultural foods that makes us fat?

Combination i believe too many carbs have led to a rise in diabetics. Once a carbohydrate is ingested the body's pancreas secretes insulin, too much insulin can create insulin resistance ie the body's muscles rejects the fuel (carbs) and it goes straight to fat.

Much to the reason overweight people have a greater difficulty in losing weight than "normal" people their body is not efficient as "normal" people (as they have abused their body with food) ie they cannot process as many carbs as "normal" people. Overweight people need to be strict about low carb diets till they have "reset" there bodys efficiency.

Point too many carbs above the bodys requirement is very bad.

 

[Calanen]

So is it the foods themselves, or our excessive use of these agricultural foods that makes us fat?

Some foods are worse than others, but there is no mystery to it. It's just a chemical reaction. People say 'I don't eat anything and I still put on weight!' which makes as much sense as 'I don't put any petrol in the car and I can still drive 1000 miles in it!'. It's just a formula - burn more than you put in, you lose weight. Burn less than you eat, and you put on weight. Work out your resting calorie or kilojoule burn per day and then eat less than that. Easy.

 

[bowman]

Work out your resting calorie or kilojoule burn per day and then eat less than that. Easy.

I'm losing weight so that's not my problem.

I was just curious as to whether the total rejection of grains and cereals by the advocates of the caveman diet is based on an incorrect premise.

 

[motorway]

I'm losing weight so that's not my problem.

I was just curious as to whether the total rejection of grains and cereals by the advocates of the caveman diet is based on an incorrect premise.

No (imo)

grains

very acid forming ( Bone health )
inhibit mineral absorption
Insulin problems

Anti nutrients

etc

Dairy

wrong type of fats
harmfull proteins

If you are drinking human milk OK

( But at your age I guess you should be weaned )

Hormones in foreign milks cross into blood
cause problems

The site I linked
Has a lot of peer review research

Genetically we are hunter gatherers
( compare skeletons of farmers to Hunters in neolithic
look at absence of Tooth decay etc . bone health ,size etc)

Fish lean meats fruits vegetables

High nutrient low anti nutrient

Importance of minerals and LONG CHAIN omega 3

Acid balance

But like anything DYOR


Three things should not talk about
religion politics and diet



Also look at descriptions of Hunter Gatherers
at first contact ( before disease and Western ills and ways --> flour and sugar )

( not new world farmers.... But eg like the "Manly" Aborigine -->amazing hand eye coordination ,eye sight ,endurance HEALTH )


High temperatue cooking too is an issue

Stack of real evidence based research

Loren Cordain
imo
is one of the leading researchers.


But DYOR
YOUR HEALTH IS YOUR HEALTH

Just Dicussion
motorway

 

[helicart]

So is it the foods themselves, or our excessive use of these agricultural foods that makes us fat?

The rate of diabetes is a lot lower in traditional Asian culture where rice is a staple and obesity is lower...

A heavy animal protein Paleo diet is not sustainable into the future because production of animal flesh and dairy products are major contributors to global warming via methane.... Anyone concerned about global warming would be a hypocrite to sustain themselves on a diet of animal products, or breed for that matter, as the planet is overpopulated.

According to the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, the livestock sector generates more greenhouse gas emissions as measured in CO2 equivalent – 18 percent – than transport. It is also a major source of land and water degradation.

 

[motorway]

The rate of diabetes is a lot lower in traditional Asian culture where rice is a staple and obesity is lower...

A heavy animal protein Paleo diet is not sustainable into the future because production of animal flesh and dairy products are major contributors to global warming via methane.... Anyone concerned about global warming would be a hypocrite to sustain themselves on a diet of animal products, or breed for that matter, as the planet is overpopulated.

According to the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, the livestock sector generates more greenhouse gas emissions as measured in CO2 equivalent – 18 percent – than transport. It is also a major source of land and water degradation.

Asia is a big place

Japan

Okinawa

Soy na
Rice Na

SEAFOOD yes
almost as much as Eskimo



Rice -------Has other health concerns

YES it is a challenge for a populated world to live
An evolutionary correct diet

But that does not mean you should not do your best
or What constitutes an optimal diet can be politically correct..

Yes compromises have to be made

But omega 6 omega 3 balance
for example

you ignore (imo ) at your peril

Does not have to be heavily flesh foods
just adequate

Dairy is non optimal
according to Cordains research

Dr. Loren Cordain is a member of the faculty of the Department of Health and Exercise Science at Colorado State University. During the past two decades he has researched the effects of diet on human health and specifically examined links between modern diets and disease. He is the author of numerous scientific articles examining the link between diet and health, and has published three popular books, The Paleo Diet, The Paleo Diet for Athletes, and The Dietary Cure for Acne. Additional information and specifics may be found in the articles, books, and materials listed on this web site, and through The Paleo Diet Newsletter.

Our mission is...

To accelerate the widespread recognition of the evolutionary basis for the optimally healthful diet

To generate publicity, discussion, and research on this topic

To inspire health-conscious individuals and healthcare practitioners to adopt and recommend this way of eating

To promote a new paradigm of the nutritional basis for health

To help people reduce their risk of lifestyle-based diseases

motorway

 

[helicart]

Okinawa

Soy na
Rice Na

SEAFOOD yes
almost as much as Eskimo

From Wiki
Indigenous islanders' diet

People from the islands of Ryūkyū (of which Okinawa is the largest) are reported to have the longest life expectancy in the world. This has in part been attributed to the local diet, but also to other variables such as genetic factors, lifestyle, and environmental factors.
Generally, the traditional diet of the islanders is 20% lower in calories than the Japanese average and contains 300% of the green/yellow vegetables (particularly heavy on sweet potatoes). The Okinawan diet is low in fat and has only 25% of the sugar and 75% of the grains of the average Japanese dietary intake.[2] The traditional diet also includes a relatively small amount of fish (less than half a serving per day) and somewhat more in the way of soy and other legumes (6% of total caloric intake). Almost no meat, eggs, or dairy products are consumed.[3]
An Okinawan reaching 110 years of age has typically had a diet consistently averaging no more than one calorie per gram and has a BMI of 20.4.[4]



See also, The China Study

 

[weird]

You also have the Sardinians (Italy).

 

[motorway]

Consumption of fish varies widely in different cultures. Table 1.3 lists the per capita consumption of fish by the Eskimos, the Japanese and the U.S. population.


Per pounds of fish per person per year

Eskimo 325
Okinawa 163
Japan 85
USA less 15



motorway


what Scientific Journal is wiki ?

as I said DYOR

An optimal diet is just that

Global Warming has nothing to do with it
Genes win out at the end of day

Does not mean what Diet is obtainable for the majority
different question

 

[motorway]

From Wiki
Indigenous islanders' diet

People from the islands of Ryūkyū (of which Okinawa is the largest) are reported to have the longest life expectancy in the world. This has in part been attributed to the local diet, but also to other variables such as genetic factors, lifestyle, and environmental factors.
Generally, the traditional diet of the islanders is 20% lower in calories than the Japanese average and contains 300% of the green/yellow vegetables

( This is good )

(particularly heavy on sweet potatoes). The Okinawan diet is low in fat and has only 25% of the sugar and 75% of the grains of the average Japanese dietary intake.

less grains could explain a lot

[2] The traditional diet also includes a relatively small amount of fish (less than half a serving per day) and somewhat more in the way of soy and other legumes (6% of total caloric intake). Almost no meat,

No meat ? --------->

The main meat of the diet is pork, and not the lean cuts only. Okinawan cuisine, according to gerontologist Kazuhiko Taira, "is very healthy””and very, very greasy," in a 1996 article that appeared in Health Magazine.19 And the whole pig is eaten””everything from "tails to nails." Local menus offer boiled pigs feet, entrail soup and shredded ears. Pork is cooked in a mixture of soy sauce, ginger, kelp and small amounts of sugar, then sliced and chopped up for stir fry dishes. Okinawans eat about 100 grams of meat per day””compared to 70 in Japan and just over 20 in China””and at least an equal amount of fish, for a total of about 200 grams per day, compared to 280 grams per person per day of meat and fish in America. Lard””not vegetable oil””is used in cooking.




eggs, or dairy products are consumed.[3]
An Okinawan reaching 110 years of age has typically had a diet consistently averaging no more than one calorie per gram and has a BMI of 20.4.[4]



See also, The China Study

motorway

 

[helicart]

Consumption of fish varies widely in different cultures. Table 1.3 lists the per capita consumption of fish by the Eskimos, the Japanese and the U.S. population.


Per pounds of fish per person per year

Eskimo 325
Okinawa 163
Japan 85
USA less 15



motorway


what Scientific Journal is wiki ?

What's the reference for this data and when was it collected, and from whom.....Younger Okinawans don't follow a traditional Okinawan diet with its protective qualities.

Half the fish intake is not 'almost as much'...


as I said DYOR

An optimal diet is just that

Global Warming has nothing to do with it
Genes win out at the end of day

The ability to adapt wins at the end of the day.....we don't carry around so much additional dna for nothing....which explains why Vilcambamba Ecuador and Okinawans have different diets but are amongst the world's longest living......

and why Paleo man lives no longer.

Does not mean what Diet is obtainable for the majority
different question

Hunter Gatherer Energy Expenditure /day
BMR 1665
Activity 1235
Total Expenditure = 2900 Cals = Total Intake

No point considering diet separate from lifestyle. It is a large leap of faith to presume the paleo diet is as appropriate for a hunter expending on average 1200Cals /day via physical activity, and a computer programmer's <500Cals.

I'll stick with Dean Ornish's research and views thanks....

 

[Y.T.]

Hello all!

Just thought i would drop past this thread as i have had experience being over weight for many years.

A bit of history - When i was 18 i weighed 109kg (I am 175cm tall) and i was considered very obese. I couldn't sleep properly, and i developed sleep apnea and the doctors said i pretty much wont live a full life if i dont start losing weight. I was getting to around 65% oxygen in my system while i slept and i would stop breathing for ages before gasping for air, so it was pretty bad...

This pretty much was a life changing moment in my life and it made me study fitness intently (on my own, no courses) and i learned an enourmous amount about my body and what i ate.

I never used to eat veges or salads at all... I would buy a burger from McDonalds and i would take out all the salad, thats how much i hated it. So i thought to myself, i got to change and start being healthy!

I used this calculator (and i still do): Daily Caloric Intake

From here i learnt that i had a certain amount of calories i needed to take in. Once i found this magic number i researched FAT and found that 1kg of FAT contains approx 7000 calories, so in order for me to lose a kg of fat a week i had to reduce my calorie intake by 1000 a day. To do this i cut my calorie intake by 500 calories and i bought myself a polar HR watch and i burnt 500 calories a day. This was hard at first but motivation is the key. HANG A PICTURE OF ARNOLD SCWARZENNEGER ON YOUR FRIDGE!

Now on the calorie/food side, everyone needs to get the optimum amount of protein, fat and carbohydrates for their body. To figure out how much protein i needed i used the 20/40/40 rule (20% protein/40% fat/40% carb). Since 1gm protein = 4 calories divide your calories by 4 to work out how many grams you need.

Example:
calorie intake=1800 calories, protein=20%:
1800 x .20 = 360 calories from protein. Since 1 gram of protein = 4 calories, divide protein calories by four:
360/4 = 90 grams of protein per day.

1 gram Fat = 9 calories
1 gram Carbohydrates = 4 Calories

Divide them evenly to get your perfect ratio.

To track all this information and my intake i used the site Calorie King. This site was paramount to my weight loss, if i didnt use this site to track my daily intake it would have taken me so much longer. It has almost every food on there!

Now this is how i did it and i thought i would share it because it worked for me and i think it is a really good way of working

Today i weigh 74kg and have been this weight for 3.5 years (current age 23) and i still stick to a good structured diet.

Any questions feel free!

Just my

 

[motorway]

and why Paleo man lives no longer.

He does

He is just living a modern lifestyle
and getting very sick


Yes it is lifestyle

sleep patterns
exercise patterns
diet patterns


If you are saying ornish claims that pork is not part of traditional

Okinawan diet

I would get another diet guru

in your quote you said they ate no meat !!
SORRY almost

Almost no meat,

Okinawa - The Island of Pork:
Pork appears so frequently in the Okinawan diet that to say "meat" is really to say "pork." Everything from head to tail is used. As the saying has it, only the "oink" and the toenails go begging. It is no exaggeration to say that the present-day Okinawan diet begins and ends with pork.

But not only present -day

After 1609, Okinawa's Satsuma Han overlords, fearing that Buddhism would spread among the people, took control of (Jodo Shin sect) Buddhism in Okinawa and put Okinawa's Buddhist priests and monks under strict supervision. For that reason, the prohibition against meat arising from Japanese Buddhism failed to take root in Okinawa. Therefore, pork consumption remained important. Fresh hog's blood was prepared for the blood "Irichii" used in the Buddhist mass for the dead and for Obon, "Unkejushi," (a welcoming dish of seasoned rice offered on July 13 of the old calendar) would not be what it is without pork.

Anyway

paleo is as much about fresh fruit & Vegetables
as it is about LEAN meat and seafood

and it is more than that too...

and We can do better than Fatty Pork

( would not eat it )

PALEO is a word misused ( no Atkins )


motorway

 

[helicart]

Now on the calorie/food side, everyone needs to get the optimum amount of protein, fat and carbohydrates for their body. To figure out how much protein i needed i used the 20/40/40 rule (20% protein/40% fat/40% carb). Since 1gm protein = 4 calories divide your calories by 4 to work out how many grams you need.

Example:
calorie intake=1800 calories, protein=20%:
1800 x .20 = 360 calories from protein. Since 1 gram of protein = 4 calories, divide protein calories by four:
360/4 = 90 grams of protein per day.

1 gram Fat = 9 calories
1 gram Carbohydrates = 4 Calories

Divide them evenly to get your perfect ratio.

To track all this information and my intake i used the site Calorie King. This site was paramount to my weight loss, if i didnt use this site to track my daily intake it would have taken me so much longer. It has almost every food on there!


Any questions feel free!

Just my

OK, that's how you took the weight off.....

If you do full time office work and regular housework and leisure activity with no more than 3 hours of walking a week, your Calorie expenditure would be about 1900 Cals a day.

If you still do 20,40,40, that means you have to take in around 85 grams of fat a day.

That is a hell of a lot of fat.

Can you give me an example of your food intake now....

 

[gav]

Taking in less Calories than BMR greatly increases the chance of developing the following diseases- severe loss of muscle tissue (as much as 40% of total wt lost), fragile and premature ageing of skin, bone mineral loss and subsequent osteoporosis, gout, gall stones, cholecystitis, vasovagal fainting (dangerous when driving), hypoglycaemia, cardiac arrhythmias, vitamin and mineral deficiencies, and nervous system dysfunction. When sustained, anorexia nervosa will develop.

A very important point indeed...

From http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Danger-of-Low-Calorie-Diets:-How-To-Avoid-The-Yo-Yo-Diet-Trap&id=74029

"While low calorie diets can result in weight loss in the first few weeks and months of starting the diet, the majority of the weight lost is not fat. This is because low calorie diets do not provide sufficient energy to fuel the body’s basic functions such as breathing, circulation, and digestion etc. In order to provide the fuel to keep itself alive, the body breaks down muscle tissue, which is easily convertible into glucose, and is easier to access and break down into energy than fat.

In effect, low calorie diets reduce the amount of lean muscle tissue in the body, which has a knock-on effect of reducing the basal metabolic rate. Lean muscle tissue is metabolically active, meaning that the more lean muscle tissue an individual has, the more calories are burned. The reduction in lean muscle tissue also reduces the body’s ability to burn fat.

When you finally lose the weight and start eating normally, your body can no longer burn calories at the rate it did before your diet because you now have less lean muscle tissue! You become locked in a vicious cycle of dieting and weight gain - simply because your body breaks down muscle for glucose before it breaks down fat. Although you might only end up gaining back the original weight you lost, you are will end up fatter because you have lost lean muscle tissue and gained back fat.

The result of the loss of lean muscle tissue and the weight gain arising from it is termed the Yo-Yo effect. Many dieters, when finding that they have regained the weight they have lost, embark on another diet, which plunges them further into lean muscle tissue loss.

So, what is the solution to permanent weight loss? To lose weight effectively, you need to consume enough energy to burn fat, and eat the right foods to maintain your level of lean muscle tissue. A sensible balance of a healthy diet and moderate exercise is more effective in achieving a permanent weight loss than low-calorie diets."

Low calorie diets mean you will not be getting the minerals your body requires. Deficiencies in copper, potassium and magnesium can lead to an electrically unstable heart (From http://diet.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Dangers_of_a_Very_Low_Calorie_Diet)

From http://dietsnutrition.allinfoabout.com/features/verylowcalorie.html

So what happens to your body on fewer than 1000 calories a day?

* Your metabolism slows down to conserve energy.
* Your body uses blood sugar, made from carbohydrates, for fuel just as a car uses gas (petrol). Without blood sugar, the brain and central nervous system, as well as other bodily systems, will cease to work efficiently.
* To try to counteract the lack of blood sugar from carbohydrates in the diet, your body will break down fat, which is what you want, but it will also breakdown muscle and other lean body tissue.
* Losing lean body tissue can be very dangerous. Even organs can be broken down to use as fuel.
* Losing lean body tissue can also be counter-productive. Muscle tissue increases the resting metabolic rate. With reduced amounts of muscle, your metabolism will slow. When you come off the diet, increased fat cells will form because your metabolism is slow and so your body needs less blood sugar for fuel. It is also a survival mechanism in case of another 'famine'.
* With very low calorie diets, an imbalance in minerals and electrolytes can occur, which can be dangerous. These govern the balance of fluids in the body allowing nerves and muscles to function.
* Osteoporosis can be another danger, especially for women. Often dairy products like eggs, milk and cheese are cut out of a very low calorie diet so cutting out a major source of calcium leading to loss of bone mass.
* Anaemia (a lack of iron in the blood) can also be another risk. If taken to extremes, women can find that menstuation (periods) becomes irregular or stops altogether.
* A lack of serotonin in the brain can be another problem which leads to clinical depression.
* You might find that the lack of essential nutrients on a very low calorie diet leads to a deterioration in the condition of your hair and nails.
* One of the great dangers of this kind of dieting is that you can become acclimatised to it. As your body reduces some of its functions, including those of the brain and nerves, and as depression takes hold due to a lack of serotonin, you can slip into anorexia nervosa - a truly life threatening condition.
* As mentioned above, when you finally come off this diet, you will almost certainly regain all the weight you have lost plus more leading to yoyo dieting, now believed to be dangerous.
--------------------------------------------------

Well well well... Many of these points were raised by others and myself on the "other" thread - especially the effects of muscle and metabolism.

 

[gouryella]

That about sums it up, Gav.

Now where have I heard that before? :

 

[gav]

OK, that's how you took the weight off.....
If you still do 20,40,40, that means you have to take in around 85 grams of fat a day.

That is a hell of a lot of fat.

Can you give me an example of your food intake now....

It really depends on the source of fat. I don't see a problem if it is from nuts, avacado, salmon, natural yoghurt, etc. Trying not to have too many carbs and fats together would be his main issue IMO. However, I'd still recommend a reduction of fats and an increase of protein.

 

[gav]

Blueberries are chokkers with antioxidants.

It seems that frozen blueberries are just as good in this respect as fresh ones, however antioxidant properties are reduced if the blueberries are eaten with protein foods.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1082901

http://www.naturalnews.com/025516.html

Thank-you for those links. The point about protein is of interest to me. I have a combination of water, oats, whey protein concentrate and mixed berries for breakfast.

It mentions milk protein, however not whey. Obviously whey is derived from milk, but I wonder if the process would make any difference to the reduction in antioxidant properties.

I also read that heat affects the berries - I'm glad I've been heating the oats in the microwave BEFORE adding the berries

 

[helicart]

Hey Gav, what's the latest in the body building fraternity regarding the protein sparing effect of carbs?