The future of energy generation and storage

[sptrawler]

Indeed a bit off topic but the 90MW gas turbine is by itself in the middle of nowhere. I don't know the full history there, how that came to be, but it's the only generating plant at the site and it really is stuck in the middle of a field pretty much:

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Zoom out I don't know the history but there must be a story as to why it was built there surely. It's a suitable location, it connects to the Moomba - Adelaide gas pipeline, and nobody's likely to complain about noise but still, it seems an odd place for one gas turbine all by itself.

My guess is it has something to do with the linepack and the GT is situated in a position that the draw on the line at that point, is such that it has minimal affect on what is available at the end delivery point.
In W.A there is a similar situation with Pinjar GT station, North of Perth.
Just a guess.

 

[farmerge]

My guess is it has something to do with the linepack and the GT is situated in a position that the draw on the line at that point, is such that it has minimal affect on what is available at the end delivery point.
In W.A there is a similar situation with Pinjar GT station, North of Perth.
Just a guess.

Pinjar is a direct line on the gas pipe line so probably a good assumption.

 

[Country Lad]

Good old wind farms - they really need to find alternative materials for the sails.

Old article but still relevant

 

[IFocus]

synchronous condensers

Haven't thought about leading lagging power factor for eons think it was 3rd year had to calculate the phase angles then when working in power generation that all went our the window and just winged it

 

[Smurf1976]

My guess is it has something to do with the linepack and the GT is situated in a position that the draw on the line at that point, is such that it has minimal affect on what is available at the end delivery point.
In W.A there is a similar situation with Pinjar GT station, North of Perth.
Just a guess.

I think you might be right. It's the only explanation that comes to mind.

At the time it was installed (1984) there was only one gas pipeline supplying Adelaide and that already had 1280MW of steam and 156MW of gas turbines fed from it in the Adelaide urban area as well as gas for reticulation to homes and industry.

These days there's also a pipeline from south-west Victoria, and yes the two pipelines do interconnect, but only one back then.

 

[sptrawler]

Haven't thought about leading lagging power factor for eons think it was 3rd year had to calculate the phase angles then when working in power generation that all went our the window and just winged it

When we got into power generation we went to governor droop, quadrature droop and whatever other droop that was happening at the time. The great days of Woodward governors and Basler AVR's, oh the good old days.
I've noticed the droop hasn't improved with time.

 

[farmerge]

When we got into power generation we went to governor droop, quadrature droop and whatever other droop that was happening at the time. The great days of Woodward governors and Basler AVR's, oh the good old days.
I've noticed the droop hasn't improved with time.

And when the paid for power supply fails here we just hit the start button on the generator and bingo instant power.

 

[IFocus]

When we got into power generation we went to governor droop, quadrature droop and whatever other droop that was happening at the time. The great days of Woodward governors and Basler AVR's, oh the good old days.
I've noticed the droop hasn't improved with time.

The woodward governors were amazing, the engine drivers at Exmouth used to complain to me all the time above the voltage being all over the place, finally looked into it and the AVR's were wired and set all asre about the 4 bigger sets were fighting each other continually.

Blacked out Exmouth 5 or 6 times I think working it out and sorting it

The good old days locals just thought the blackouts were normal

 

[basilio]

Good old wind farms - they really need to find alternative materials for the sails.

Old article but still relevant

View attachment 166649

That was an excellent story Country Lad. Quite detailed and offered an excellent insight into

1) The developing options to recycle these blades
2) The very small proportion of landfill these units will require even if there is no better solution
3) The comparison in toxicity to current landfill/pollution problems with fossil fuel mining

Resolving end of life clean ups for any industrial process is always an issue. This one is no different but of a far lower order of magnitude than any other energy technology. Think nuclear power stations, coal mines, oil drilling sites, ect.

 

[basilio]

There is an updated review of this issue in Renew Economy. Quite comprehensive

Wind turbine blades: Inside the battle to overcome the waste problem

Wind turbines are being used for longer. Meanwhile, the race is on in Europe and the US to find better solutions to a growing problem of how to recycle them.

reneweconomy.com.au

There also appears to be a real solution to the current problem. As usual lets see the proof.

A Danish wind turbine giant just discovered how to recycle all blades

Danish wind turbine maker Vestas says it’s figured out how to recycle all wind turbine blades – even ones already sitting in landfills.

electrek.co

 

[sptrawler]

The World's Biggest Nuclear Fusion Reactor Just Came Online

The world's biggest experimental nuclear fusion reactor in operation was inaugurated in Japan on Friday, a technology in its infancy but billed by some as the answer to humanity's future energy needs.

www.sciencealert.com

 

[sptrawler]

The woodward governors were amazing, the engine drivers at Exmouth used to complain to me all the time above the voltage being all over the place, finally looked into it and the AVR's were wired and set all asre about the 4 bigger sets were fighting each other continually.

Blacked out Exmouth 5 or 6 times I think working it out and sorting it

The good old days locals just thought the blackouts were normal

Last time I was there Jamo was the foreman, great fitter ended up at BP refinery.
I worked for the yanks at Exmouth, they had Morse Fairbanks diesels.
From memory the town station had English Electric CSV16's.
I think the old station used to be in town on Nimitz Street from memory, apparently they now have a new gas fired station.

 

[Smurf1976]

When we got into power generation we went to governor droop, quadrature droop and whatever other droop that was happening at the time.

It may alarm you to know that until not long ago, rather a lot of plant had primary frequency control completely disabled.

Kate Summers had quite a bit to say about this one. She's not afraid of upsetting anyone (and isn't afraid to play the personal card if it makes a point....).

I worked for the yanks at Exmouth, they had Morse Fairbanks diesels.
From memory the town station had English Electric CSV16's.
I think the old station used to be in town on Nimitz Street from memory, apparently they now have a new gas fired station.

This one?

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[sptrawler]

It may alarm you to know that until not long ago, rather a lot of plant had primary frequency control completely disabled.

Kate Summers had quite a bit to say about this one. She's not afraid of upsetting anyone (and isn't afraid to play the personal card if it makes a point....).




This one?

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Wow that is new, zooming in on your map, the old station comes up as 29 Pelias St, just off Nimitz St, well I think that is it but we are talking 40 years ago.
The building is orientated and located where I remember it, there are also all the roof vents, so I'm 90% sure that's the old station.
How did you embed that google satellite image? very clever.

 

[IFocus]

Wow that is new, zooming in on your map, the old station comes up as 29 Pelias St, just off Nimitz St, well I think that is it but we are talking 40 years ago.
The building is orientated and located where I remember it, there are also all the roof vents, so I'm 90% sure that's the old station.
How did you embed that google satellite image? very clever.

Corner of Nimitz and Huston? No 5 Huston looks like the new workshop built 83 / 84 ish the switchyard is where I remember at the front Nimitz St.

The units from a shaky memory where 6 ish old Blackstones and 4 x 8 cylinder Allens, 750 kw ish don't ever remember the station temp being below 55 degrees in summer.

Used to stay at either the Potshot or North Cape Lodge alternately drink at the other scoring the odd free beer to lure me back, life was simple then if not outright dangerous

There were some pretty extreme accidents working live in those days.

 

[sptrawler]

Corner of Nimitz and Huston? No 5 Huston looks like the new workshop built 83 / 84 ish the switchyard is where I remember at the front Nimitz St.

The units from a shaky memory where 6 ish old Blackstones and 4 x 8 cylinder Allens, 750 kw ish don't ever remember the station temp being below 55 degrees in summer.

Used to stay at either the Potshot or North Cape Lodge alternately drink at the other scoring the odd free beer to lure me back, life was simple then if not outright dangerous

There were some pretty extreme accidents working live in those days.

Yes the corner of Nimitz and Huston, when I click on it google comes up with 29 Pelias St, strange as there is no Pelias Street when you zoom in.
I remember the Allens at Carnarvon, but for some reason EE CSV's comes to mind for Exmouth, Blackstones the only ones I remember back in the 80's was at Denham and I think Menzies had one.
You certainly could be right, regionals had a smorgasbord of units spread all over the State, we were constantly swapping out old museum pieces for high speed Cats and Cummins.
I only visited Exmouth station once in my time with regionals, so the memory could be shaky.
When I lived there I was working on the base.

 

[IFocus]

Yes the corner of Nimitz and Huston, when I click on it google comes up with 29 Pelias St, strange as there is no Pelias Street when you zoom in.
I remember the Allens at Carnarvon, but for some reason EE CSV's comes to mind for Exmouth, Blackstones the only ones I remember back in the 80's was at Denham and I think Menzies had one.
You certainly could be right, regionals had a smorgasbord of units spread all over the State, we were constantly swapping out old museum pieces for high speed Cats and Cummins.
I only visited Exmouth station once in my time with regionals, so the memory could be shaky.
When I lived there I was working on the base.

I have a photo of me standing in front of the Blackstone in Denham doing a major with a fitter holding a big spanner (never used the spanner )

The V16 Allens in Carnarvon were a fantastic motor (submarine motors I think) the Merlee's alongside them I set the hi temp alarm / shutdown back to front blacked Carnarvon Keith Diemel told me their were two C's in town and I was both of them they were the days.

Thinking now Exmouth wasn't Allens as you say.

 

[sptrawler]

I have a photo of me standing in front of the Blackstone in Denham doing a major with a fitter holding a big spanner (never used the spanner )

The V16 Allens in Carnarvon were a fantastic motor (submarine motors I think) the Merlee's alongside them I set the hi temp alarm / shutdown back to front blacked Carnarvon Keith Diemel told me their were two C's in town and I was both of them they were the days.

Thinking now Exmouth wasn't Allens as you say.

Happy days, Keith was a bit of a legend in Regionals, he was there when we converted the Allens to start on diesel and run on LNG, that was when Australia just got on and got things done. Not always well, but we got them done.
The Merlee's K8' Majors were terrific medium speed units, the backbone of many of the bigger stations, Broome, Esperance etc
Most of the English Electric CSV 16's were ex locomotive engines, we hobbled everything together back then, most of the Blackstones were inherited from when the councils owned and operated their local power stations before SEC took them over.
Exmouth was purpose built in the 60's when the base was built, the base had its own power station out at VLF it was going to run the Town, but the W.A Govt in its infinite wisdom said no we will build our own.
Same with the houses, that's why the yanks got air conditioned brick houses, the Aussies got asbestos and tin houses on stumps and only had ceiling fans, OMG nothing changes with Australian Governments one brain fart after another.

 

[rederob]

Notions of Australia needing to go nuclear are beyond the pale. Nuclear remains the most expensive source of firming electricity by a large margin, as has been explained at this site for many years:

Unsurprisingly renewables get cheaper year after year, with capacity additions in 2023 increasing massively:

But the above chart is not the big story. That's found in the declining price of solar which has module prices at their lowest level ever, reaching AUD$0.20 per watt in the third week of November. The chart below shows the trend:

IRENA's latest report shows that the rate at which the competitiveness of solar and wind power has improved as the cost of electricity from solar and wind power has recently fallen is quite remarkable.

 

[sptrawler]

Notions of Australia needing to go nuclear are beyond the pale. Nuclear remains the most expensive source of firming electricity by a large margin, as has been explained at this site for many years:
View attachment 166800

Unsurprisingly renewables get cheaper year after year, with capacity additions in 2023 increasing massively:

View attachment 166798
But the above chart is not the big story. That's found in the declining price of solar which has module prices at their lowest level ever, reaching AUD$0.20 per watt in the third week of November. The chart below shows the trend:

IRENA's latest report shows that the rate at which the competitiveness of solar and wind power has improved as the cost of electricity from solar and wind power has recently fallen is quite remarkable.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the cost advantage of renewables, the debate is more focused on the amount of renewables and storage that will be deployed and as to its ecological effect and its ongoing replacement costs.

The benefits of solar wind are obvious the negatives are very seldom talked about, other than by environmental activists.

The footprint of same for same energy output of nuclear VS renewables and storage, is many times smaller, eventually that may have a bearing on the decisions that are made who knows?
Hopefully renewables can achieve the end result required, that would be a win all round, if not people will still want power.

Cost will be the least of the issues, if the power system falls into chaos, it costs a lot to send rockets to the moon, we still do it and electricity is a lot more essential than lunar landings.

It is an interesting world we live in at the moment, on the one hand we are trying to save it for our future generations, on the other hand we are gearing up for war, to kill the future generations.

There was an interesting article in the AFR the other day, with some info from the COP meeting, apparently we need to instal 1,000GW a year, that's a lot, then add the storage to compliment it that's a lot also.
Interesting times.