The future of energy generation and storage

[satanoperca]

Very enlightening

 

[sptrawler]

Indeed , as I have said all along. Going electric vehicles will require a massive investment in generation
, and it just replaces an oil oligopoly with an electric one which is why I think hybrids are the way to go, with regenerative braking technology as well.

So you think the oil companies, with their money, are just going to sit back and say "oh well we're stuffed".
How dumb do you think they are, or maybe you think they haven't got a plan B, best of luck with that.
If we at ASF forum level, can see the problem for the oil industry, you can be sure they can.

 

[SirRumpole]

How dumb do you think they are,

Perhaps you would like to address that question to VC, he's the electric car campaigner, I really don't give a stuff as I'd rather have a hybrid.

 

[sptrawler]

Perhaps you would like to address that question to VC, he's the electric car campaigner, I really don't give a stuff as I'd rather have a hybrid.

I think you're right, at the moment, due to the distance problem in Australia, an electric car with a high efficiency diesel alternator is a no brainer .
I think Musk, is trying to blind side everyone, by shoving batteries down everyone's throat.
However hydrogen produced from renewables is the obvious answer, at this point of our evolution, the only non polluting technology we have available.
Fill the car in three minutes and travel 500 klm, that has to be a winner.IMO

Musk can talk it up as much as he likes, but fuel cells are the answer, at the moment.
I'm just glad the S.A Government, has realised it is the only way they can, get any advantage from over investment in renewables.
I think they would have been far better off ,spending the money on an electrolysis plant, rather than a battery.
They have to make use of the excess generation.IMO

Also regarding my previous post, I wouldn't be suprised to see oil companies installing wind/solar plant, to generate hydrogen and supporting fuel cell technology.
They have the distribution network in place, they just have to adapt it to a different fuel.

 

[SirRumpole]

I think there is a place for ethanol too, as long as we make it from sugar cane and not corn like the Yanks do.

It's clean burning and easier to store and transport than hydrogen and can be burned in gas turbine power stations as well as as a transport fuel.

The politicians just don't seem interested though, but as you say that's probably the oil company's Plan B, get to our leaders before they damage their vested interests.

 

[sptrawler]

The big problem I see is, if it isn't handled well, there will be a massive social upheaval.
Imagine the panic, if everyone thought their internal combustion engine car, would be worthless in five years.
How many car yards and distributorships, would be worthless? How many jobs would be lost? How much GST would be lost?
What would we do with all the useless vehicles?
So the U.K and other countries including China have laid down a time frame, which tells us that it will happen, I just think batteries aren't the answer.
Time will tell, everyone thought that battery operated digital watches, were the end of automatic watches that work on physical movement.
How did that go.

 

[Tisme]

I wonder if someone will pick up where Aquion left off

 

[SirRumpole]

A very interesting article. Maybe community power is the way of the future.

Off-grid trial gives WA farming community cheaper, more reliable power

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-...hium-batteries-big-success-wa-farmers/8954740

 

[satanoperca]

Off-Grid is happening and will continue to grow, Solar + Battery is the way of the future, clean, reliable energy.

 

[Value Collector]

Perhaps you would like to address that question to VC, he's the electric car campaigner, I really don't give a stuff as I'd rather have a hybrid.

The oil companies will be fine, the transition period will be long, and with coal being offset by gas, there will Be plenty of investments for oil companies in drilling for gas for the foreseeable future.

Not sure why you guys think electric car range is a problem, the tesla will do 498kms on a charge, more than most people do in a day, and if you need to you can fast charge it at a super charger.

 

[Value Collector]

Off-Grid is happening and will continue to grow, Solar + Battery is the way of the future, clean, reliable energy.

Agreed, batteries are the future, but you still need the grid,

 

[Value Collector]

I think there is a place for ethanol too, as long as we make it from sugar cane and not corn like the Yanks do.

ethanol is only viable if it is using a waste product as its feed stock, as for farming crops specifically to generate ethanol, that is uneconomic and very wasteful, its a niche product at best.

 

[SirRumpole]

ethanol is only viable if it is using a waste product as its feed stock, as for farming crops specifically to generate ethanol, that is uneconomic and very wasteful, its a niche product at best.

Sugar cane is a viable ethanol source. Corn and other food crops should not be used to produce ethanol.

 

[Value Collector]

Sugar cane is a viable ethanol source. Corn and other food crops should not be used to produce ethanol.

For niche applications where you are happy to waste a lot of good farming land, water and fertiliser to get a liquid fuel, but as a large scale energy source its a wasteful use of resources, and there are better options.

for example, if you covered and acre of land with solar panels, you would collect a lot more usable energy each year than you would by planting that acre with sugar cane and then brewing ethanol, so that one acre would equal a lot more kilometres of driving via electric vehicle than it would using ethanol in a ICE vehicle.

Also, you wouldn't have to actually put the solar panels on farming land, you could put it on roof tops or land not suitable for farming, so then you don't have to compete with food crops for space.

Not to mention that farming that acre land needs constant labour, fertiliser, pesticides, herbicides, water etc every year, but once you built the solar panels, there would be very little further input needed each year when it comes to resources.

 

[Value Collector]

Take a look at this, this is a Tesla power pack and solar installation in Hawaii, this offsets a lot of imported diesel. If they tried to use that same parcel of land to make ethanol or biodiesel, they wouldn't get any where near the amount of energy they get from those panels, plus they have to continually be farming and have risks of crop failure etc.

 

[SirRumpole]

Take a look at this, this is a Tesla power pack and solar installation in Hawaii, this offsets a lot of imported diesel. If they tried to use that same parcel of land to make ethanol or biodiesel, they would get any where near the amount of energy they get from those panels.

You make a good point. It's above my pay grade to consider all the economics of solar panels vs ethanol, however untill all the vehicles run on batteries (which will be a LONG time down the track) we will still need an oil substitute for transport and bio ethanol is one solution. Brazil is an example of what can be done with ethanol.

 

[Boggo]

Interesting...

 

[Value Collector]

we will still need an oil substitute for transport and bio ethanol is one solution.

It was only a few posts back you guys thought that the oil industry was trouble, and might be in danger of losing their markets for their oil, if the oil companies are having trouble making money selling oil there won't be room for ethanol in the market, there is plenty of oil left in the ground, beyond using waste products I can't see a need for ethanol as fuel.

 

[Value Collector]

Interesting...

View attachment 72677

So our export coal industry will be in good shape,

 

[SirRumpole]

It was only a few posts back you guys thought that the oil industry was trouble, and might be in danger of losing their markets for their oil,

Sorry, but I never said that.

I've always made the case for hybrids (fossil fuel +electricity) because I see a purely electric market as a long way in the future. Oil or its derivatives will be around for 50 years at least.