The future of energy generation and storage

[basilio]

Fully electric cars are coming a lot quicker than we might think.

China to ban production of petrol and diesel cars 'in the near future'
Announcement aimed at tackling pollution will prove a huge incentive to development and sale of electric and hybrid vehicles

China says it plans to ban petrol and diesel cars ‘in the near future’. Photograph: Tyrone Siu/Reuters

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Agence France-Presse

Monday 11 September 2017 05.52 BST

China, the world’s biggest vehicle market, is considering a ban on the production and sale of fossil fuel cars in a major boost to the production of electric vehicles as Beijing seeks to ease pollution.

The move would follow similar plans announced by France and Britain to outlaw the sale of petrol and diesel cars and vans from 2040 in order to clamp down on harmful emissions.

Xin Guobin, vice-minister of industry and information technology, told a forum in the northern city of Tianjin at the weekend that his ministry had started “relevant research” and was working on a timetable for China.

Xin said the policy would be implemented “in the near future”, according to the official Xinhua news agency.

These measures will promote profound changes in the environment.

Xin Guobin, vice-minister of industry
“These measures will promote profound changes in the environment and give momentum to China’s auto industry development,” he said in remarks broadcast by CCTV state television.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-of-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-the-near-future

 

[Wysiwyg]

Great to see the government (Barnaby 'get those dogs out of here' Joyce) stand up and say - we are not ashamed of using coal to create power. He splutters and farts but he is straight down the line.

Please use clean coal technology and only until renewables are confirmed base load capable.

 

[basilio]

And what if the engineers and the bean counters said "Hey this new clean coal plant (which actually isn't) will cost a bomb more than a renewabe energy plant like say a solar thermal plant or wind/solar with battery back up ?

Ask Smurf

 

[basilio]

Global shockwaves from electric cars will be here sooner rather than later
Governments, the oil industry and car makers are waking up to the profound changes battery-powered cars will bring
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Sunday 10 September 2017 07.00 BST

When Jaguar Land Rover followed in the tracks of Volvo last week with its shift to an electric-powered future, the car maker didn’t just talk about hybrids and batteries.

Its chief executive also showed that his company, like governments and oil firms, is finally waking up to the global shockwaves electric cars will bring about. They are far more profound than whether drivers top up via a pump or a plug.

Ralf Speth cited the impact battery-powered cars will have on oil demand, and the “considerable stress” that could have for major oil-producing countries’ budgets.

“Many [governments] could be forced to impose substantial spending cuts within the next five years, straining living standards and so creating unrest in areas already suffering from instability. So changes in mobility, in technology, will change the geopolitical map of the world,” he said.

Those changes seem a lot closer after this summer’s rush hour of electric car announcements.

Carmakers have queued up to pledge that soon all their new models will be either hybrids or electric. Elon Musk’s Tesla delivered the first production versions of its mass market Model 3.
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-all-electric-car-future-shorter-than-thought

 

[SirRumpole]

Pragmatism not panic in the electricity market ?

https://theconversation.com/time-for-pragmatism-not-panic-for-the-electricity-market-83577

For crying out loud, if private investors aren't interested in investing in our electricity generation, the government will just have to do it. Build less motorways and submarines and more power generation. Prioritise.

 

[brty]

Clean coal, myth, described here.....

"Mississippi power plant's shutdown confirms that 'clean coal' as an industry savior is a myth"

"The faith of coal advocates in the doctrine of “clean coal”— technology that would allow utilities to burn coal for electricity without somehow poisoning the environment — has suffered a possibly fatal blow.

Southern Co., which has been building a “clean coal” plant in eastern Mississippi since 2010, has just pulled the plug on the project and is preparing to take a loss of as much as $3.4 billion.

The company and its utility subsidiary Mississippi Power didn’t actually have much choice. The state’s utility regulators, the Public Service Commission, said late last month that they wouldn’t allow the company to charge electricity customers for the plant. They said discussions about what to do with the plant, including whether to convert it to all-natural gas fuel, should begin as soon as Thursday.

survey by Massachusetts Institute of Technology reported, “especially once construction began in 2010 and the company discovered that many of the original designs needed major changes.” The current estimate is $7.5 billion.
“Clean coal” technology involves turning coal into synthetic gas before burning it to produce electricity. The Kemper plant was designed to strip carbon dioxide out of the exhaust and pump it underground so it couldn’t contribute to climate change.


The Obama administration showed great interest in clean coal technology, and it’s a centerpiece of the Trump administration’s promise to save the coal mining industry — a goal that many energy experts consider hopeless.

Expectations for the Kemper plant, which is located next to a mine for lignite, the dirtiest form of coal, always were ambitious; coal gasification never had been used to produce commercial electricity, according to climate experts."

Full article here..
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-clean-coal-20170705-story.html#

I've been making a lot from renewable energy companies over the last couple of years, how have coal companies gone, some OK, as in where they were 5 years ago (WHC, SMR) many poorly (NHC, YAL, ATU, AQC, TIG, etc)
The price of the coal company's tells us what the market thinks of the long term reality of "clean coal", and just coal in general.

 

[Smurf1976]

Pragmatism not panic in the electricity market ?

Capacity markets can work in theory but the rest of the country would be wise not to follow what WA has done with theirs.

Long story short, it has lead to the construction of totally uneconomic to operate generation which is profitable only because it receives the capacity payment and the owners are counting on not actually operating it much (or at all). Cheap to built but expensive to run. And it's no secret that at least some of it hasn't been built overly well either. Who needs a roof and walls on a power station.....?

So the WA government has responded by limiting the total capacity of state owned generation, forcing existing plants out of the market due to the capacity cap, in order to create a market for the higher cost privately owned generators.

WA's problems are different to the eastern mainland states. Enough capacity yes but at a rather high price and power bills are now starting to catch up with plenty more pain to come financially.

It could be done but need to get it right. I'm not sure I trust our politicians with the "get it right" bit unfortunately.

 

[Smurf1976]

For crying out loud, if private investors aren't interested in investing in our electricity generation, the government will just have to do it.

That one can easily be answered with a few questions.

Which states have the biggest problems now? Vic and SA.

Which states were the first to privatise? Vic and SA.

Which state is next in line for major problems? NSW

Which state was next to fully privatise? NSW

Which states have power prices that aren't increasing significantly? NT and Tas

Which states haven't privatised any substantial part of their power systems? NT and Tas.

No coincidence in any of that.

 

[SirRumpole]

That one can easily be answered with a few questions.

Which states have the biggest problems now? Vic and SA.

Which states were the first to privatise? Vic and SA.

Which state is next in line for major problems? NSW

Which state was next to fully privatise? NSW

Which states have power prices that aren't increasing significantly? NT and Tas

Which states haven't privatised any substantial part of their power systems? NT and Tas.

No coincidence in any of that.

Trouble is both parties have blood on their hands when it comes to privatisation, so you don't hear a lot of criticism of it by Labor.

Michael Costa and Morris Iemma (former Labor NSW Treasurer and Premier) both wanted to sell off NSW's generators but they were knocked back by their Party rooms. Liberal Premier Mike Baird finally did the deed.

 

[Junior]

A fair chunk of our electricity & gas bills must be passing through into these figures:

Energy provider and retailer AGL Energy says its underlying profit could pass $1 billion in the current financial year as its electricity business generates more earnings and its gas business improves margins.

AGL Energy has posted an annual profit of $539 million for the year to June 30, 2017, up from the prior year's loss of $408 million loss which was due to one- off items and fair-value movements.

Australia's second-largest energy retailer's underlying profit, which excludes one-off items and fair-value movements, rose 14.4 per cent to $802 million - above AGL's guidance range of $720 million to $800 million.

 

[Value Collector]

 

[Value Collector]

Watch this from the 3.20min mark, I really interesting show and tell of the Tesla app showing usage of the solar/battery/car power usage under different loads.

It confirms my position that the grid is here to stay.

 

[Smurf1976]

A fair chunk of our electricity & gas bills must be passing through into these figures:

I have intentionally not commented on specific investment opportunities in this thread, preferring to focus on the industry itself and let others join the dots as to how to profit, but so far as generation is concerned:

1. If a company is net long generation or at least even (that is, they generate more than they retail or at least even).

2. That generation has low operating costs (coal, hydro) and isn't falling apart or running out of fuel.

3. You're going to be making an increased profit in practice. Selling price of your product went up a lot but your own costs haven't increased to the same extent.

AGL is in that category since whilst they do own significant gas-fired generation they also have plenty of coal-fired capacity and are among the more significant owners of hydro generation that you could actually invest in (given that both Hydro Tas and Snowy Hydro are not listed companies and are owned by governments). They're not going to lose from the situation that's for sure.

 

[Tisme]

I'm guessing this mob of vision laughing at their success in repealing the Carbon Tax aren't so happy at finding out they got outmanouvred by the energy retailers.

 

[SirRumpole]

I'm guessing this mob of vision laughing at their success in repealing the Carbon Tax aren't so happy at finding out they got outmanouvred by the energy retailers.

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Bunch of w@nkers.

The whole electricity debacle is the fault of the Liberal Party. Kennet sold Hazlewood, Baird sold Liddell, and the Liberals broke up an efficient cross subsidised industry into separate parts that all wanted a share of the pie so prices rose.

They really are hopeless, after 6 years it will be time for another change.

 

[overhang]

If we were to build a grid from scratch today, ignoring any priority towards lower emissions would we actually still build a coal fired power station?

 

[SirRumpole]

If we were to build a grid from scratch today, ignoring any priority towards lower emissions would we actually still build a coal fired power station?

If we were fitting out a modern office would we still buy typewriters ?

 

[Value Collector]

If we were to build a grid from scratch today, ignoring any priority towards lower emissions would we actually still build a coal fired power station?

I think so, if pollution wasn't an issue, either coal or nuclear. If you could erase the negatives of the two options that is.

 

[Value Collector]

If we were fitting out a modern office would we still buy typewriters ?

No we would buy computers, that require loads more electricity than typewriters hence the need for the coal power stations

 

[Value Collector]

In depth look at the power wall 2, and the app, plus questions answered, very interesting video.