The future of energy generation and storage

[sptrawler]

I have no particular reason, but a myriad of comfort points knowing old clunker technology is chugging along and in govt hands. So I think we should be keeping coal fired stations public and allowing private enterprise to develop alternatives that eventually overtake the fossil fuel production.

The problem with private enterprise developing alternatives is, they want huge subsidies to get involved, which leads to the Government underwriting the risk.
To a certain degree W.A has gone down this path, by offering capacity agreement contracts, whereby a new a entrant gets paid for being available to generate, the problem is you can't make them generate.

As I said it is crazy to shut down existing coal, it is our only low cost fuel, at the moment. With regard installing new coal fired plant, it is basically impossible, due to lack of investors and financial backers.

It doesn't bode well for the future cost of our electricity.
As for our gas, it should be taxed by volume, same as all our minerals should.IMO

 

[Smurf1976]

Gas prices in Australia double those of exports

A 2012 report from NIEMIR claimed that for each dollar gained from gas exports $21 in economic activity was lost.

At the risk of saying "I told you so", Smurf has been saying for years that we're heading toward a crisis and we're just about there now.

We had the third cheapest electricity in the OECD back in the state-run utility days. Now we're uncompetitive internationally.

We had cheap gas and now we're one of the most expensive places on earth for gas.

We had a reliable supply of both gas and electricity with load shedding of either being something that you might see once as a child, once again when your own kids are at schoo and once again when you're retired. Now it's become a routine event in SA and other states are set to follow.

Hazelwood power station doesn't have a lot of supporters on account of its emissions but to be blunt it's the last pillar holding everything sort-of up. Once that goes, and thats now only weeks away, we've got two problems:

1. During Summer a lack of peak generating capacity affecting both Vic and SA. It would also affect NSW if the three states were to have a simultaneous heatwave but the primary impact is on Vic and SA.

2. During winter we have enough peak power generation BUT we're going to have to run the gas-fired plants a lot more than in the past. Now, the Victorian gas network especially already struggles to meet demand during cold spells in Winter and I'll add that SA, NSW and Tas all rely partly (SA, NSW) or totally (Tas) on Victoria for gas supplies. It's not rocket science to work out what's going to happen once we start running those gas-fired power stations harder and there's a cold snap in SE Australia. At best we'll be burning diesel in the gas turbines but that's not exactly cheap and it sure isn't "green".

So we'd better hope that it's cool in summer and warm in winter from now on. Constant mild weather all year round is what we'd better have. Good luck with that one.

 

[Smurf1976]

As I said it is crazy to shut down existing coal, it is our only low cost fuel, at the moment

Yep. By messing up with gas we're left with coal as the only thing we've got that's already built and affordable to run. Should never have happened but that's the situation we've ended up with.

 

[sptrawler]

If Hazelwood shuts down, my bet is a gas pipeline will have to be built from N/W of W.A to the Moomba gas fields, christ knows what that will cost.
All in the name of getting rid of coal, I think someone is taking the pizz out of us, as if our coal emissions effect the world climate.
We still export the stuff to China and India, why not just refuse to supply their power stations, that would have ten times more effect on emissions.

 

[sptrawler]

My personal guess, as to where we should be heading, at this point in our energy generation evolution.
Well firstly the only sensible cheap renewable, with storage, is Hydro.

Second the only sensible mass renewable, that is fairly cheap to install, is wind generators. They lack storage, but a hydrogen plant could be located adjacent to the wind farm, with a turbine supplied by the plant for back up base load.
Having said that, it would take a lot of liquid gas storage, to run a large gas turbine for an extended period of time. So it probably isn't feasible.
Molten solar storage, IMO is o.k but it again has to rely on reasonable sunshine, and storage is limited, so the installation/maintenance cost to output, I would think would be questionable.
Household battery storage, IMO is achievable, but I don't think most people with it would go off grid.
Those who could afford it, couldn't afford a system that could run their a/c for extended low solar generation periods. So it really is a bit of a cottage industry.

So alas, we come back to the system, we want it reliable, affordable and available.
Unfortunately, as usual, we are getting ahead of ourselves.
The politicians know this, but they can't say it because the media and greenies will bag it.lol

 

[noco]

Yep. By messing up with gas we're left with coal as the only thing we've got that's already built and affordable to run. Should never have happened but that's the situation we've ended up with.

Smurf, how long will solar panels last before having to be replaced and how long will wind generators last before they break down and have to be replaced?

 

[SirRumpole]

Smurf, how long will solar panels last before having to be replaced and how long will wind generators last before they break down and have to be replaced?

You could Google it yourself.

Solar panels about 25 years, batteries and inverters about 5 years.
Wind turbines about 25 years.

 

[noco]

You could Google it yourself.

Solar panels about 25 years, batteries and inverters about 5 years.
Wind turbines about 25 years.

What has it got to do with you Rumpy?...The question was directed to Smurf.....If I want you opinion I will ask for it.

 

[SirRumpole]

What has it got to do with you Rumpy?...The question was directed to Smurf.....If I want you opinion I will ask for it.

Up yours then.

 

[PZ99]

My personal guess, as to where we should be heading, at this point in our energy generation evolution.
Well firstly the only sensible cheap renewable, with storage, is Hydro.

Hydro, as in wave energy Australia has an abundance of available sites especially up north.

Somewhere adjacent to the Horizontal Falls is the perfect location. We even have a cheap wave energy stock ASX-POW in the process of a CR at the moment...

Spoiler: LOL

Disclaimer: Not a holder

 

[sptrawler]

Hydro, as in wave energy Australia has an abundance of available sites especially up north.

Somewhere adjacent to the Horizontal Falls is the perfect location. We even have a cheap wave energy stock ASX-POW in the process of a CR at the moment...

Spoiler: LOL

Disclaimer: Not a holder

As you say up north, with the large tidal movement wave generation is feasible, there just isn't much demand for electricity up there.
What demand there is, is easily serviced by the lake Argyle hydro station.

I have also wondered,if there would be any maintenance issues with wave generators, the ocean is a very corrosive environment.

 

[SirRumpole]

As you say up north, with the large tidal movement wave generation is feasible, there just isn't much demand for electricity up there.

We have a national grid don't we ?

 

[PZ99]

Current cost is the mitigating factor. Carbon Tax was supposed to fund these sort of projects but now that revenue is gone there's no money. Still, feeding wave power into the NEM either into QLD or S.A. isn't too hard. Other projects include Victoria, King Island, Tassie...
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...s/news-story/1bdd14cd12833f90cbfc359f1e5b0dc0

 

[Value Collector]

If Hazelwood shuts down, my bet is a gas pipeline will have to be built from N/W of W.A to the Moomba gas fields,.

the link is already being built.

The NT link pipeline will link the east coast grid to the Northern Territory pipeline via mt isa.

The Bonaparte Basin (timor sea) is Australias largest undeveloped gas field, its likely to hold more gas than the western shelf and Queensland coal seams combined.

there is already a sub sea pipe connecting Darwin to WA, so I think Australias gas supply is only limited by the drilling we do.

 

[SirRumpole]

The Bonaparte Basin (timor sea) is Australias largest undeveloped gas field, its likely to hold more gas than the western shelf and Queensland coal seams combined.

I just hope our dumb government reserves that for local use, we are already exporting too much as indicated by local prices.

 

[Tisme]

What has it got to do with you Rumpy?...The question was directed to Smurf.....If I want you opinion I will ask for it.

Open forum comes to mind, but that was funny LOL.

Perhaps you could take it personal messaging instead?

 

[Tisme]

the link is already being built.

The NT link pipeline will link the east coast grid to the Northern Territory pipeline via mt isa.

The Bonaparte Basin (timor sea) is Australias largest undeveloped gas field, its likely to hold more gas than the western shelf and Queensland coal seams combined.

there is already a sub sea pipe connecting Darwin to WA, so I think Australias gas supply is only limited by the drilling we do.

Isn't there a pipe going in from PNG to Northern Oz?

 

[Value Collector]

Isn't there a pipe going in from PNG to Northern Oz?

I am, pretty sure that got canned, the Bonaparte is much larger anyway, and pipelines can be extended into WA from there easily.

 

[Value Collector]

I just hope our dumb government reserves that for local use, we are already exporting too much as indicated by local prices.

The purpose of the link was to connect the Bonaparte to eastern grid, where it will be able to provide supply to the domestic market as well as the export terminals in QLD.

 

[Value Collector]

Here is a short news segment from when the NT Gas link was announced