The future of energy generation and storage

[sptrawler]

Chris Bowen will be on National Press Club on Wed 17th July.

If members here know any journalists it would be a good opportunity to let them know what questions to ask.

It would be good if someone just asked both sides of politics, to put up a plan, a detailed plan, not a back of the napkin excuse for a plan.

Labor need to fess up on gas replacement and the Coalition need to actually say something detailed rather than sound grabs, both sides are doing Australia a disservice at the moment.

Nobody knows what the hell is going on, only that neither party appears to have a concrete way forward, which doesn't inspire confidence for businesses or households.

Kurri Kurri was announced in 2020, to be on line last year, yet still isn't complete.
So if we take it's build time as a yardstick, how many need to be built in the foreseeable future and when will they be announced.
Let's be honest, if they are going to take 5 years to build they need to get a move on IMO, or is it all just BS?

 

[Smurf1976]

Some of us have much higher standards in the "who I know department" .
Mick

When I was a lot younger I dated a woman who's since become a journalist.

She's at the ABC these days, has also worked for News Corp, Channel 7 and the BBC.

I'll avoid names. She married someone else for the record.

 

[mullokintyre]

When I was a lot younger I dated a woman who's since become a journalist.

She's at the ABC these days, has also worked for News Corp, Channel 7 and the BBC.

I'll avoid names. She married someone else for the record.

personally, I married someone else for the money.
Mick

 

[Smurf1976]

Trying to be neutral in terms of my own views and just looking at what the Coalition are doing from a political perspective, I see it as them realising the other side (Labor) are somewhat backed into a corner.

Another way to look at this is to go further away from the Coalition, not to Labor but to the Greens.

Now would the Greens prefer to support new investment into natural gas or diesel?

Or would they prefer large storage hydro?

See the politics here? Opposition to hydro was literally the founding basis of the Greens meanwhile in recent times they have a high profile position against fossil fuels. Labor has similar views. But one or the other has to give.

The Liberals probably couldn't care less either way but they've presumably realised the other end of the scale has a good chance of ending up in an internal battle over the issue and that gives them an opportunity politically.

 

[SirRumpole]

When I was a lot younger I dated a woman who's since become a journalist.

She's at the ABC these days, has also worked for News Corp, Channel 7 and the BBC.

I'll avoid names. She married someone else for the record.

So there you are, you have a contact .

 

[sptrawler]

When I was a lot younger I dated a woman who's since become a journalist.

She's at the ABC these days, has also worked for News Corp, Channel 7 and the BBC.

I'll avoid names. She married someone else for the record.

My guess is you dodged a bullet, it would be a fate worth than death IMO.

 

[sptrawler]

Another way to look at this is to go further away from the Coalition, not to Labor but to the Greens.

Now would the Greens prefer to support new investment into natural gas or diesel?

Or would they prefer large storage hydro?

See the politics here? Opposition to hydro was literally the founding basis of the Greens meanwhile in recent times they have a high profile position against fossil fuels. Labor has similar views. But one or the other has to give.

The Liberals probably couldn't care less either way but they've presumably realised the other end of the scale has a good chance of ending up in an internal battle over the issue and that gives them an opportunity politically.

Well I did read that as of now, only Albo, Chalmers and Bowen can discuss nuclear.

Apparently all the other muppets, were putting up memes, that may well come back to bite them on the ar$e at a later date.

Really shows why they should just butt out and leave it to the experts, obviously they don't have a clue about the ramifications of the issue, as usual.

 

[sptrawler]

I wonder if there is some form of remote panel cleaning fitted on the really large solar farms, one would think so.




more likely something like this.

Sims Solar Cleaning Australia | Farms

Mega Clean for Mega Watts. Sims uses Solar Cleaning Robots to clean Solar Farms. With the capability of cleaning 500 panels an hour, its by far the most economical way to clean Solar farm panels. ROI is recognised extremely quickly and robots can work at night and be controled remotely.

www.simssolar.com.au

 

[sptrawler]

Well I stumbled on this pumped hydro project, it sounds promising and expected to up and running by 2031, apologies if someone else has already posted the article.

Proposed $4bn pumped hydro project could power a third of Sydney’s households by 2031

Private energy retailer behind the project above Lake Burragorang says venture would be about half the generation size of Snowy 2.0

www.theguardian.com

Sydney’s main source of drinking water could also supply enough renewable energy to power almost a third of the city’s households by 2031 if a pumped hydro project using a former coal washery proceeds as planned.

Zen Energy, an energy retailer, announced on Thursday it had signed an agreement with the state-owned Water NSW to build a reservoir at Nattai on the escarpment about 400m above Lake Burragorang on Sydney’s south-west fringe.

The project has an initial cost of $3bn to $4bn and would be financed mostly through debt, a Zen spokesperson said. At 1,000 megawatts of capacity and with about 3km of tunnels, the venture would be about half the generation size of the Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro project, which is presently estimated to cost at least $12bn with its 27km of tunnels.

The proposed Western Sydney pumped hydro venture would cycle about 10 gigalitres of water between the two water bodies. Lake Burragorang, which sits behind Warragamba dam and can hold more than 2,000GL, would see its water levels rise and fall about 10cm, the spokesperson said.

The Nattai site is a former coal washery that has been rehabilitated over the past two decades and is now mostly bare rock. However, the lake would still have to be lined to ensure that water cycling through does not contaminate Sydney’s water supplies below.

The close proximity to Sydney and the avoidance of land clearing in a national park are among the advantages the WSPH project has over its larger Snowy 2.0 counterpart. The region’s sandstone is expected to be easier to bore through than the mixed geological area the Snowy Hydro project has had to contend with, the spokesperson said.

The Nattai venture will still require several years of feasibility studies to determine whether it is viable, with the WaterNSW approval just the first hurdle to clear.

Zen said coal was mined in the area between 1930 and 1992, with the coal washery in use until 2001. If all approvals and a social licence are secured – with $1m a year to be set aside for a community benefit scheme – construction could begin in 2027 and be operational by 2031, it said.

“The vast water reserves of Lake Burragorang can supply Sydneysiders with clean drinking water and clean, renewable energy as well,” Zen’s chief executive, Anthony Garnaut, said in a statement.

 

[SirRumpole]

Well I stumbled on this pumped hydro project, it sounds promising and expected to up and running by 2031, apologies if someone else has already posted the article.

Proposed $4bn pumped hydro project could power a third of Sydney’s households by 2031

Private energy retailer behind the project above Lake Burragorang says venture would be about half the generation size of Snowy 2.0

www.theguardian.com

Sydney’s main source of drinking water could also supply enough renewable energy to power almost a third of the city’s households by 2031 if a pumped hydro project using a former coal washery proceeds as planned.

Zen Energy, an energy retailer, announced on Thursday it had signed an agreement with the state-owned Water NSW to build a reservoir at Nattai on the escarpment about 400m above Lake Burragorang on Sydney’s south-west fringe.

The project has an initial cost of $3bn to $4bn and would be financed mostly through debt, a Zen spokesperson said. At 1,000 megawatts of capacity and with about 3km of tunnels, the venture would be about half the generation size of the Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro project, which is presently estimated to cost at least $12bn with its 27km of tunnels.

The proposed Western Sydney pumped hydro venture would cycle about 10 gigalitres of water between the two water bodies. Lake Burragorang, which sits behind Warragamba dam and can hold more than 2,000GL, would see its water levels rise and fall about 10cm, the spokesperson said.

The Nattai site is a former coal washery that has been rehabilitated over the past two decades and is now mostly bare rock. However, the lake would still have to be lined to ensure that water cycling through does not contaminate Sydney’s water supplies below.

The close proximity to Sydney and the avoidance of land clearing in a national park are among the advantages the WSPH project has over its larger Snowy 2.0 counterpart. The region’s sandstone is expected to be easier to bore through than the mixed geological area the Snowy Hydro project has had to contend with, the spokesperson said.

The Nattai venture will still require several years of feasibility studies to determine whether it is viable, with the WaterNSW approval just the first hurdle to clear.

Zen said coal was mined in the area between 1930 and 1992, with the coal washery in use until 2001. If all approvals and a social licence are secured – with $1m a year to be set aside for a community benefit scheme – construction could begin in 2027 and be operational by 2031, it said.

“The vast water reserves of Lake Burragorang can supply Sydneysiders with clean drinking water and clean, renewable energy as well,” Zen’s chief executive, Anthony Garnaut, said in a statement.

Sounds good, but I would at least double the original estimate.

 

[sptrawler]

Sounds good, but I would at least double the original estimate.

At least it is something, now we just have to wait and see how long approval takes.

@Smurf1976 may be able to give us a back of the napkin how many GWh it is likely to provide. I noticed that quite a lot of the high flying renewable guys are involved, so the nuclear announcement may have pushed them to announce the idea.

Meet our people leading ZEN to a zero-carbon world

Our people are the backbone of driving ZEN Energy towards a zero-carbon world. Meet the team powering renewable energy here

www.zenenergy.com.au

 

[SirRumpole]

At least it is something, now we just have to wait and see how long approval takes.

@Smurf1976 may be able to give us a back of the napkin how many GWh it is likely to provide. I noticed that quite a lot of the high flying renewable guys are involved, so the nuclear announcement may have pushed them to announce the idea.

Meet our people leading ZEN to a zero-carbon world

Our people are the backbone of driving ZEN Energy towards a zero-carbon world. Meet the team powering renewable energy here

www.zenenergy.com.au

As long as there is enough spare energy to do the pumping.

 

[sptrawler]

As long as there is enough spare energy to do the pumping.

I dont think that will be a problem.

 

[Smurf1976]

@Smurf1976 may be able to give us a back of the napkin how many GWh it is likely to provide.

Not that many.

According to the info I have, which comes from the company itself, the answer is about 8 GWh.

So it's a 1000MW facility with 8 hours running time. That's the details I've seen.

 

[Smurf1976]

Meanwhile on the demand side:

Power-hungry data centres are booming in Australia. Can the grid cope?

An explosion in the number of data centres in Melbourne and Sydney, which will use vast amounts of electricity, is looming as a new test for the grid.

www.theage.com.au

between 3.3 gigawatts and 5 gigawatts of demand – equivalent to the combined generating potential of approximately two of Australia’s biggest coal-fired power plants – could be added to the east coast grid by 2030 on the back of growth in data centres and artificial intelligence.

Now for that to work requires supply.....

 

[sptrawler]

Meanwhile on the demand side:

Power-hungry data centres are booming in Australia. Can the grid cope?

An explosion in the number of data centres in Melbourne and Sydney, which will use vast amounts of electricity, is looming as a new test for the grid.

www.theage.com.au

Now for that to work requires supply.....

Which goes back to what we keep saying, this isn't a static issue, where we need x amount of renewables by a certain time, the number is exponential and growing.

Our population is growing, the amount of things that require to be changed over to electric operation is growing, the only thing that isn't growing is people's understanding of the issues.

The longer this goes on, the more it is starting to look like a train wreck, the Govt has been in for coming up to 3 years, what has been done? In a word zip.

Someone needs to get on with something, other than photo opportunities, tongue poking and grandiose statements .

 

[sptrawler]

Looks like the battery cathode plant idea has gone South.
With it I guess the proposed made in Australia battery plant, will also be a nogo.

IGO and Wyloo shelve proposal for a Kwinana battery precursor processing facility valued at up to $1b. The battery metals downturn has induced IGO and Andrew Forrest's Wyloo to put grand plans for a processing plant nestled in the Kwinana industrial strip on ice.

This article from 14 APR 2023,
14 months is a long time, it's amazing how much some things can change and other things don't change at all.

Land secured at Kwinana for Australia’s first proposed integrated battery material facility – Wyloo

wyloo.com

Wyloo Metals Pty Ltd (Wyloo) and IGO Limited (ASX: IGO) (IGO) have today announced that land has been secured at Kwinana for their proposed integrated battery material facility (IBM Facility or the Project).

Wyloo and IGO are working towards making a financial investment decision on the development of the Project which involves integrating a downstream nickel refinery with a plant producing high-value nickel dominant precursor cathode active material (PCAM) for the battery supply chain. The proposed Project would combine IGO’s disruptive nickel refining technology with PCAM production expertise via a low-cost and low-carbon process. The Project would represent the first commercial production of PCAM in Australia and would align with the State Government’s drive to grow Western Australia’s future battery industry.

 

[SirRumpole]

Batteries v pumped hydro ? The USA seems to be thinking that batteries are better.

 

[sptrawler]

Like we keep saying, it wont be one technology, it will be a group of technologies that suit the location and load profile required for that location.
What suits the East Coast of Australia, wont be suitable for the West Coast, same will apply for just about every country.
In W.A batties will be the main source of firming when gas is banned, unless some other technology comes along.

 

[sptrawler]

Here we go, I told you the nuclear announcement would flush out the truth. Lol

Snowy 3.0? Experts say Australia has ‘so many good sites’ for more pumped hydro

Such schemes have their critics but the technology, which has been known for a century, could help many nations reach net zero

www.theguardian.com