The future of energy generation and storage

[sptrawler]

Another example of the electrical sytem issues coming to a head, the Fortesque hydrogen plant being proposed for the old fertilizer plant at Gibson Island, has ground to a halt due to cost of power and reliability of supply from the solar farm.

Heavy power using industries need certainty of supply and the way we are not following any sensible critical path toward renewables, isn't giving companies any confidence.
A well thought out plan showing a balanced well engineered way forward, is becomming more and more apparent IMO. Otherwise the Govt's open cheque book approach is bound to be rorted, wasted and ill directed IMO.

Fortescue seeks government help to reduce power prices for stalled 500MW green hydrogen project in Australia | Hydrogen Insight

Australian H2 developer has already delayed final investment decision three times on landmark Gibson Island project

www.hydrogeninsight.com

From the article

A follow-up question asked whether the price problem was related to bulk power price — for which it had already secured a 337.5MW solar power purchase agreement with developer Genex — or the dispatchable power it might need to access when the sun isn’t shining.

“Honestly, it’s both,” Hutchinson replied. “We want to make sure that to get the right economics that we get the power price down to a level where we produce the hydrogen and we don’t want to be switching the plant on and off as much as possible, so we’re really looking at getting the power price for both down, yes.”

renewable power prices needed to be less than US$30/MWh to be competitive on the global marketplace.
Average wholesale electricity prices in Queensland in Q4 2023 were A$79 (US$52.25) per MWh, according to the
Australian Energy Regulator.

Hutchinson also told the analyst call that its next green hydrogen projects to reach FID will be the “larger” ones in Norway and Brazil.

In particular, Fortescue is “fast-tracking” one project in Brazil and another in Norway, he added.

“It’s cheap power we’re looking for and where you have consistency, for example, for hydro[power], where’s you’re taking it straight from hydro resources, you know, that’s what we’re doing in Norway and Brazil. That’s very, very efficient.”

Its Norwegian project is the 300MW Holmaneset project near Svelgen, western Norway, which would produce more than 225,000 tonnes of green ammonia

 

[qldfrog]

Another example of the electrical sytem issues coming to a head, the Fortesque hydrogen plant being proposed for the old fertilizer plant at Gibson Island, has ground to a halt due to cost of power and reliability of supply from the solar farm.

Heavy power using industries need certainty of supply and the way we are not following any sensible critical path toward renewables, isn't giving companies any confidence.
A well thought out plan showing a balanced well engineered way forward, is becomming more and more apparent IMO. Otherwise the Govt's open cheque book approach is bound to be rorted, wasted and ill directed IMO.

Fortescue seeks government help to reduce power prices for stalled 500MW green hydrogen project in Australia | Hydrogen Insight

Australian H2 developer has already delayed final investment decision three times on landmark Gibson Island project

www.hydrogeninsight.com

From the article

A follow-up question asked whether the price problem was related to bulk power price — for which it had already secured a 337.5MW solar power purchase agreement with developer Genex — or the dispatchable power it might need to access when the sun isn’t shining.

“Honestly, it’s both,” Hutchinson replied. “We want to make sure that to get the right economics that we get the power price down to a level where we produce the hydrogen and we don’t want to be switching the plant on and off as much as possible, so we’re really looking at getting the power price for both down, yes.”

renewable power prices needed to be less than US$30/MWh to be competitive on the global marketplace.
Average wholesale electricity prices in Queensland in Q4 2023 were A$79 (US$52.25) per MWh, according to the
Australian Energy Regulator.

Hutchinson also told the analyst call that its next green hydrogen projects to reach FID will be the “larger” ones in Norway and Brazil.

In particular, Fortescue is “fast-tracking” one project in Brazil and another in Norway, he added.

“It’s cheap power we’re looking for and where you have consistency, for example, for hydro[power], where’s you’re taking it straight from hydro resources, you know, that’s what we’re doing in Norway and Brazil. That’s very, very efficient.”

Its Norwegian project is the 300MW Holmaneset project near Svelgen, western Norway, which would produce more than 225,000 tonnes of green ammonia

Exactly, only hydro can provide mostly(drought excepted) 24/7 "green" power at a reasonable price, I would even say "green" 24/7.
As discussed previously, once you have to have battery or pump up to complement solar or wind, you become just too dear(pump up), and if using current generation batteries, not even green as overall CO2 per kwh is higher than gas turbine...
Unless you forget the CO2 to get the windmill and panels produced and installed ..CO2 I do not care much as it is good for the planet but overall pollution of the whole cycle, we should...

 

[qldfrog]

Exactly, only hydro can provide mostly(drought excepted) 24/7 "green" power at a reasonable price, I would even say "green" 24/7.
As discussed previously, once you have to have battery or pump up to complement solar or wind, you become just too dear(pump up), and if using current generation batteries, not even green as overall CO2 per kwh is higher than gas turbine...
Unless you forget the CO2 to get the windmill and panels produced and installed ..CO2 I do not care much as it is good for the planet but overall pollution of the whole cycle, we should...

So we will not become a giant green power exporter.....

 

[sptrawler]

So we will not become a giant green power exporter.....

I think that is probably starting to dawn on even the strongest supporters, it just becomes such a huge amount of renewable generation and storage that is required, which is what was said at the beginning of this thread.
Also obviously Chris has realised it and is probably the reason for the open cheque book for renewables.

 

[basilio]

So overall yes private ownership can work, so can government ownership, there's firm proof in both cases. Noting there that the historic model of government ownership put engineers in charge not politicians, a point Sir John Monash famously gave an ultimatum over and got what he wanted - he recognised the need to keep politics at arms length from a state-owned utility otherwise it'd be messed up. Over a century later and I think we can say he was spot on correct about that, politicians ought be kept at arms length from technical things.

Certainly the most spectacular example of a quality Government funded, engineer driven approach to creating a proper energy market.

Worth remembering however this was not a "given". The private electricity companies of the day were furious with the decision becasue it clearly impacted on their profits. For a number of years John Monash had deal with private companies doing whatever they could to undermine the SEC.

 

[sptrawler]

Certainly the most spectacular example of a quality Government funded, engineer driven approach to creating a proper energy market.

Worth remembering however this was not a "given". The private electricity companies of the day were furious with the decision becasue it clearly impacted on their profits. For a number of years John Monash had deal with private companies doing whatever they could to undermine the SEC.

Didn't Daniel Andrews just re start the SEC in Victoria to turn it around?

 

[qldfrog]

We do not discuss ammonia burning much here but for people interested and the imho folly behind these schemes:

'Sad to see' | Co-firing ammonia with coal would gobble up at least four million tonnes of clean hydrogen: BNEF | Hydrogen Insight

Total announced Asian co-firing projects could require the equivalent of 40-220GW of electrolyser capacity, data from BNEF indicates

www.hydrogeninsight.com

 

[qldfrog]

We do not discuss ammonia burning much here but for people interested and the imho folly behind these schemes:

'Sad to see' | Co-firing ammonia with coal would gobble up at least four million tonnes of clean hydrogen: BNEF | Hydrogen Insight

Total announced Asian co-firing projects could require the equivalent of 40-220GW of electrolyser capacity, data from BNEF indicates

www.hydrogeninsight.com

I see ammonia as a way to move H2 around without most of the issues of H2 storage.

 

[sptrawler]

Didn't Daniel Andrews just re start the SEC in Victoria to turn it around?

Yes I thought I had read that, how is that going?

Power To The People – SEC Up And Running

The Andrews Labor Government is driving down energy bills and emissions by reviving the State Electricity Commission (SEC) – delivering government-owned renewable energy to drive down power bills and put electricity back in the hands of Victorians. Minister for the State Electricity Commission...

www.premier.vic.gov.au

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes I thought I had read that, how is that going?

Power To The People – SEC Up And Running

The Andrews Labor Government is driving down energy bills and emissions by reviving the State Electricity Commission (SEC) – delivering government-owned renewable energy to drive down power bills and put electricity back in the hands of Victorians. Minister for the State Electricity Commission...

www.premier.vic.gov.au

I certainly hope it works, and is an insipration for other States.

 

[basilio]

Didn't Daniel Andrews just re start the SEC in Victoria to turn it around?

This was part of the plan. Lets see how it pans out.

We'll train Victorians for jobs in renewable energy.​

Bringing back the SEC and building new, renewable energy is about more than just electricity.
It's about opportunity.
Building and maintaining the renewable energy projects we need to power our state is going to create 59,000 jobs.
And Labor has a plan to train Victorians for these jobs, and open opportunities in secure, well-paying jobs - working for people, not profits.
We'll create at least 6,000 apprenticeships and traineeships as part of our plan to bring back the SEC.
We will set up an SEC Centre of Training Excellence to coordinate and accredit course for apprentices - working across TAFEs, training organisations, workers and industry.
And to ensure there is a pipeline of jobs for Victorians we'll ensure that new renewable projects are built with locally made parts, by Victorian workers.

Setting up young Victorians for the future​

Setting up kids to get jobs in renewable energy shouldn't wait until after school.
We'll add clean energy as a VCE Vocational Major option, and schools will offer TAFE courses in the classroom to give kids a headstart.
And we'll have workers from the SEC visit government schools to talk to kids about jobs in renewable energy - and actually recruit them too.
These changes in TAFE and our schools will help train the 59,000 worker we need to build our renewable future.
We're empowering Victorians to power our state.
That's how we bring back government-owned energy.

We'll Train Victorians for Jobs in Renewable Energy.

www.danandrews.com.au

 

[qldfrog]

I certainly hope it works, and is an inspiration for other States.

"I hope, we trust"

 

[SirRumpole]

What China is up to in the energy game.

 

[qldfrog]

What China is up to in the energy game.

Is there any way China can lose?
Get cheap oil and gas from Russia, get business profit & employment making solar and batteries to sell to the west at a profit and so ensuring the competitors industries are uncompetitive due to energy costs.
Moreover, having now more than 60% of increased exports not going to the US/EU, they can afford a trade war and win..

 

[sptrawler]

Collie to get a big Tesla battery, which isn't bad IMO, they aren't likely to put embargo's on us, as opposed to some other suppliers.

But W.A still has the big issue of how to deal with long term storage, time will tell how that is sorted and at this point in time there seems to be only one option and it aint available yet.

Hopefully technology comes up with alternatives.

The one good thing W.A seems to have had in recent years, is Premiers who put Western Australias interests before their own, hopefully that continues.

Charged up: WA town to home Australia’s biggest battery

The expansion will let the state’s biggest power grid store midday solar power for use in the evening, and will make it Australia’s largest energy storage site.

www.watoday.com.au

 

[qldfrog]

Why is a small beach town against a renewable technology that could help the planet?

Green hydrogen technology is touted as a way to fight climate change, but this tourist town is concerned about its impact on the local environment.

www.abc.net.au

Cool solar and wind into H2...
Actually no,
Solar and wind into desalination..but what about by night?
Ok so after heaps of energy and cost just to get water, we are already to start competing to create H2 from an intermittent energy source...

So at a disadvantage at the start due to lack of fresh water..then once you have your expensive fresh water, split it using at best 12h a day solar power and sail it by boat from woop woop .sorry australia to..whoever will be on the market for fresh H2...
How hard is it to understand we can not be competitive?
Unless we help with Australian tax payers dollars to subsidize Asian electricity bills...
Wtf..

 

[SirRumpole]

Offshore wind farms in Gippsland a step closer?

• In short: Six offshore wind projects vying to secure a place in Australia's first offshore wind zone have been granted feasibility licences.
• The federal government's declared offshore wind zone is located in waters off Gippsland in Victoria's east.
• What's next? Companies behind the proposals now have an opportunity to undertake detailed assessments before submitting final plans.

Australia one step closer to generating electricity from offshore wind farms as projects receive feasibility licences

Federal Minister for Climate Change and Energy Chris Bowen officially unveils the first proponents to receive offshore wind farm feasibility licences.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sptrawler]

Some interesting facts on W.A gas and how the companies are playing the Govt.
Can't think of where to post the article but don't want to lose it.

WA’s gas shortage is a joke – at the public’s expense

Can you imagine Qatar or Saudi Arabia panicking about a gas or oil shortage? It would be a joke. And in the west, companies are laughing all the way to the bank.

www.watoday.com.au

 

[SirRumpole]

Some interesting facts on W.A gas and how the companies are playing the Govt.
Can't think of where to post the article but don't want to lose it.

WA’s gas shortage is a joke – at the public’s expense

Can you imagine Qatar or Saudi Arabia panicking about a gas or oil shortage? It would be a joke. And in the west, companies are laughing all the way to the bank.

www.watoday.com.au

Amazing.

A while ago we were talking about WA's gas reservation policy and how there was no shortage of gas in the West.

Someone has dropped the ball apparently.

 

[sptrawler]

Amazing.

A while ago we were talking about WA's gas reservation policy and how there was no shortage of gas in the West.

Someone has dropped the ball apparently.

Or the companies are being shonky.