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The future of energy generation and storage

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SirRumpole said:
I was told that the water will heat when the power prices are lowest.

Is this not correct?
Click to expand...
I would doubt .unless you have an intelligence somewhere, your hws will consume whenever needed which may or not be the worst or best time tariff wise.
As I understand it, with controlled load, power to the hws will be cut during high demand which is ok...
And they are not like a oven or AC you do not dynamically start hws on or off.
Most people have it on all the time, it is even mandatory..
I would be reluctant to switch based on my understanding ..
You can only lose unless it is critical for you to have your hws heating as soon as water in the reserve cools a bit...
No one usually
Mr @Smurf1976 could bring his knowledge here if I miss something
 
SirRumpole said:
The switch on time is activated by the retailer?
Click to expand...
If they want to trigger it when the rates are lowest then it may work, they probably want to run it when it is sunny.

You should be able to get comparison pricing per Kwh, look at your controlled load (off peak) rate for the heater at night and compare that with their lowest "midday" rate.

As Smurf has pointed out, quite often they have too much power between 10-2 and it is getting worse.
 
macca said:
If they want to trigger it when the rates are lowest then it may work, they probably want to run it when it is sunny.

You should be able to get comparison pricing per Kwh, look at your controlled load (off peak) rate for the heater at night and compare that with their lowest "midday" rate.

As Smurf has pointed out, quite often they have too much power between 10-2 and it is getting worse.
Click to expand...
The issue I have is Mr @SirRumpole is offered:
"from controlled load to time of use tariff."
Time of use tariff in plain English does not mean:
"We cut your hws when in high demand"
, it just means that if your hws is, by bad luck ,on during peak time aka early morning or late arvo shower, you will be billed to the max..without even knowing...
I am sure you can install intelligent system to switch on off based on tariff like for EV car charging..but the extra cost on a hws...hum and I doubt Mr Rumpole has such a recent top of the range home kettle😊
So unless mistaken on time of use tariff meaning,no no no
run away like hell
 
This is the info I was given for time of use tariff . It's mainly Greek to me.
 

Attachments

  • TimeofUseBrochure.pdf
    1.5 MB · Views: 10
SirRumpole said:
My energy retailer wants to change my hot water system from controlled load to time of use tariff.

Is this beneficial to me?
Click to expand...
It depends.....

A controlled load (known as "off peak" in some states, from here on I'll use the SA term "OPCL") tariff will under normal circumstances be a flat rate, always the same price whenever it's on, with the electricity distributor or retailer (varies between states and metering arrangements) deciding when it operates. As a consumer you've no reason to care when it's on so long as it does indeed turn on before you run out of hot water.

A TOU tariff normally means a continuous 24 hour supply with different pricing at different times of the day. The exact details vary with location but generally there'll be a peak rate during the evening and also of a morning, a cheap rate during the middle of the day, and a cheap rate in the middle of the night. Plus possibly some "shoulder" rates between them.

If there's no timing device to control when the hot water system (HWS) operates then on an OPCL supply it'll simply start heating when supply is turned on whereas on a TOU supply it'll heat at any time, including when peak rates apply, and under typical patterns of usage that virtually guarantees the consumer pays more. It's also bad in a technical sense on the supply side.

So TOU only makes potential sense if a timer is fitted, either as a separate device external to the HWS or if the HWS already has a built-in timer (common with modern heat pumps but not with any other system).

If you have solar power, switching to TOU and heating water during the middle of the day will generally save money, since you'll be using your own solar first and the cheapest rate from the grid second. That's assuming you are in fact getting a cheap rate during the middle of the day which, at least in SA, WA and Tas, will normally be the case (other states check locally).

So in short, if you have solar power and a timer on the HWS then TOU will save you money as long as the timer is correctly set.

If you don't have solar power but use a timer then it'll depend on what price you're paying for the cheapest TOU rate versus what price you pay for OPCL supply.

If you don't use a timer with TOU then you're pretty much guaranteed to lose.

Noting there's a complication in that In theory a TOUOPCL rate is possible, that is an OPCL tariff with different pricing at different times. Eg one price for the daytime supply from ~10am to ~3pm and another price for the overnight supply. That arrangement isn't at all common but nothing expressly prohibits a retailer from offering it, and I'm aware that one or two have tried going down that track.

This is a variation on the traditional approach in some states (Qld, NSW, Tas) which gave the option to have either one or two heating periods per day and which applied a higher price to all OPCL consumption (regardless of time) if two periods were the chosen option.

Vic and SA historically offered twice daily heating on a restricted needs basis, you'd need approval and it was normally given only for storage space heating, but in more recent times in SA there's been a move to twice daily regardless and with no price differentiation. There were technical reasons for that historic approach in those states, it wasn't just someone being difficult for the sake of it.

So the bottom line is does your HWS have a timer of some sort?
 
So the bottom line is does your HWS have a timer of some sort?

Here is the email from Ess Energy detailing the proposed change. It seems to imply I have a timer(or a new one will be installed).
I don't have solar power.
I'm in NSW.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We recently inspected your metering system, which is known as a Master Subtractive Meter (MSM) installation. That means it has a master meter, which measures total power consumption, and meters installed downstream from the master meter, which are called subtractive meters because they measure a subset of power already measured by the master meter. Subtractive metering is often used to measure electricity consumption by things like your controlled load hot water system, shearing sheds and bore pumps.

More information can be found at: https://www.essentialenergy.com.au/at-home/master-subtractive-metering

This type of installation is no longer compliant with the National Electricity Rules or with the Australian Energy Market Operator’s meter data requirements.

Our technical team has reviewed your site and recommended the following solution:

  • Master meter ....... (A) to be replaced in existing location. Retailer will replace with a smart meter placed on Time of Use (TOU) tariff.
  • Remove existing subtraction meter ........ (B) and Frequency Injection Relay. Install a new customer owned time switch for the hot water system and program as per existing control times (CL1)


Essential Energy will arrange the metering system reconfiguration works and will co-ordinate meter replacement with your electricity retailer. This would be completed at Essential Energy’s cost.



Please note if you agree to the above solution and wish to revert to general and controlled load tariff in the future, this will have to be completed by your Accredited Service Provider at your cost.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
SirRumpole said:
This is the info I was given for time of use tariff . It's mainly Greek to me.
Click to expand...
In layman's terms what it's saying is:

Peak rate applies from 5pm to 8pm weekdays.

Shoulder rate applies 7am to 5pm weekdays, and from 8pm to 10pm weekdays.

Off peak rate applies at all other times. So that is:

10pm Monday to 7am Tuesday
10pm Tuesday to 7am Wednesday
10pm Wednesday to 7am Thursday
10pm Thursday to 7am Friday
10pm Friday to 7am Monday inclusive of the whole weekend

You'd need to check with your retailer to find out the actual $ prices during these times.
 
SirRumpole said:
Remove existing subtraction meter ........ (B) and Frequency Injection Relay. Install a new customer owned time switch for the hot water system and program as per existing control times (CL1)
Click to expand...
The key here is making sure it's programmed to the cheapest times.

If you do not have solar electricity then you want this timer programmed to operate during the 10pm to 7am period.

If you do have solar electricity then you'd generally be better off with it operating during daytime 10am - 4pm. That's assuming the FIT you're receiving on the solar is relatively low, and that the shoulder price charged by the retailer is closer to the off peak rate than to the peak rate.
 
Smurf1976 said:
The key here is making sure it's programmed to the cheapest times.

If you do not have solar electricity then you want this timer programmed to operate during the 10pm to 7am period.

If you do have solar electricity then you'd generally be better off with it operating during daytime 10am - 4pm. That's assuming the FIT you're receiving on the solar is relatively low, and that the shoulder price charged by the retailer is closer to the off peak rate than to the peak rate.
Click to expand...
CL1 is 10pm to 7am so it looks like I'm ok.

www.essentialenergy.com.au

Changes to Controlled Load 1

Recently we’ve made a slight change to the times that supply is available on Controlled Load 1 tariff.
www.essentialenergy.com.au www.essentialenergy.com.au

Thanks to everyone who replied.
 
SirRumpole said:
So the bottom line is does your HWS have a timer of some sort?

Here is the email from Ess Energy detailing the proposed change. It seems to imply I have a timer(or a new one will be installed).
I don't have solar power.
I'm in NSW.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We recently inspected your metering system, which is known as a Master Subtractive Meter (MSM) installation. That means it has a master meter, which measures total power consumption, and meters installed downstream from the master meter, which are called subtractive meters because they measure a subset of power already measured by the master meter. Subtractive metering is often used to measure electricity consumption by things like your controlled load hot water system, shearing sheds and bore pumps.

More information can be found at: https://www.essentialenergy.com.au/at-home/master-subtractive-metering

This type of installation is no longer compliant with the National Electricity Rules or with the Australian Energy Market Operator’s meter data requirements.

Our technical team has reviewed your site and recommended the following solution:

  • Master meter ....... (A) to be replaced in existing location. Retailer will replace with a smart meter placed on Time of Use (TOU) tariff.
  • Remove existing subtraction meter ........ (B) and Frequency Injection Relay. Install a new customer owned time switch for the hot water system and program as per existing control times (CL1)


Essential Energy will arrange the metering system reconfiguration works and will co-ordinate meter replacement with your electricity retailer. This would be completed at Essential Energy’s cost.



Please note if you agree to the above solution and wish to revert to general and controlled load tariff in the future, this will have to be completed by your Accredited Service Provider at your cost.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
and you have to pay for the privilege Holly sxit
 
SirRumpole said:
According to the email, the work will be at Essential Energie's expense.
Click to expand...
Just need to confirm, from the letter my bold to highlight:
"Retailer will replace with a smart meter placed on Time of Use (TOU) tariff."

"Remove existing subtraction meter ........ (B) and Frequency Injection Relay. Install a new customer owned time switch for the hot water system and program as per existing control times (CL1)"
then
" Essential Energy will arrange the metering system reconfiguration works and will co-ordinate meter replacement with your electricity retailer."
In no places do they say they (essential energy) actually provide hardware or feet on the ground , your retailer will..free ? then what about
customer owned time switch if you own it, do they pay for it and the installation, what about repair?
please get a clear in writing explanation on that.
I doubt you will not be charged somewhere

then

I follow and agree with @Smurf1976 timer etc with one caveat: we assume that in case of Time of Use (TOU) tariff, these are setup once for all...based on time of day
But the beauty and reason of TOU is to match real price and reduce demand when the grid is under stress.
You timer is a dumb clock base system and will not know a plant has collapsed in Victoria and it is very cold/hot.
My belief is that TOU will ultimately be dynamic if they are not already.
And you timer will just be right...most of the time only
That was the article about AC in qld etc
They have one aim: to screw you and get as much money as they can from your account..This is not a public service anymore
 
qldfrog said:
My belief is that TOU will ultimately be dynamic if they are not already.
Click to expand...
At present the majority of retailers used fixed times as per the "standard" TOU periods (peak, shoulder, off-peak) as defined by the networks. All that varies is some use different terms to refer to them (a key point, in some cases what they call shoulder is actually the cheapest rate and off-peak is the middle one, so always check actual prices).

A minority of retailers use different times not quite the same as those set by the networks. An example would be inserting a shoulder rate between peak and off-peak where the network hasn't specified one. Eg the network has peak until 11pm then straight to off-peak, so a retailer decides no we'll make that shoulder from 10pm to midnight. etc.

But.... At least one retailer, Amber, does offer direct exposure to wholesale spot pricing with the rates you pay changing every 5 minutes.
 
SirRumpole said:
Distrust in the regions over renewable energy, more government intervention needed says Australia's Energy Infrastructure Commissioner Andrew Dyer .
Click to expand...
What's needed is a properly planned approach.

I'm not surprised to see people get upset when multiple separate developers each build their own short transmission lines and the community ends up surrounded by them.

The economists will hate me but I'll say it - collusion, not competition, is the answer there. Get all the companies together and come up with joint plans that avoid unnecessary infrastructure duplication and which develop the resource in an efficient manner. Do that first, then decide who'll own which bits. :2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
What's needed is a properly planned approach.

I'm not surprised to see people get upset when multiple separate developers each build their own short transmission lines and the community ends up surrounded by them.

The economists will hate me but I'll say it - collusion, not competition, is the answer there. Get all the companies together and come up with joint plans that avoid unnecessary infrastructure duplication and which develop the resource in an efficient manner. Do that first, then decide who'll own which bits. :2twocents
Click to expand...
And as well proper treatment of affected people.the farm has an easement for a transmission line hundreds of metres away from house.
To check a pylon on another property, their team keep taking our driveway, driving past our house etc...
.no legal right, just because they always did it , and we were nice enough to let them, and they recorded it in their procedures.
they did not even replied to our contact asking them to stop, and they try to avoid giving you contact as well.
 
qldfrog said:
And as well proper treatment of affected people.the farm has an easement for a transmission line hundreds of metres away from house.
To check a pylon on another property, their team keep taking our driveway, driving past our house etc...
.no legal right, just because they always did it , and we were nice enough to let them, and they recorded it in their procedures.
they did not even replied to our contact asking them to stop, and they try to avoid giving you contact as well.
Click to expand...
Can you lock your driveway?
 

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