The future of energy generation and storage

[sptrawler]

Not only is it a small grid but it has even smaller industrial components..than the rest of Australia..which does not say much...
When will we start seeing costing, and not just of free solar power or cheap wind power but the lot: grid storage and baseload and final cost per kw

Considering we are closing our 6 coal plants nationally, that is probably less than the amount going online in a week in the rest of the world,I can check if you want...
at one stage,it would be wise to use our brain and ask some questions. But how dare i?

Don't waste your breath, eventually it will become obvious, it will be self resolving because energy is too critical to fail.
They won't let it, but they have to wait until the Muppets acknowledge the issue.

 

[sptrawler]

Well I did say W.A being topographically flat, will have to spend a huge amount on batteries, well guess what. See the article below.

I wonder what Desperate Dan has in store for Victoria?

WA to spend $3b on major battery storage system, wind power

The West Australian government will allocate almost $3 billion to a renewable battery storage system and new wind power in Thursday’s state budget.

www.afr.com

The West Australian government will spend almost $3 billion on a renewable battery storage system and wind generation as part of a major overhaul of its energy network as it prepares for the retirement of coal-fired power plants.

Premier Mark McGowan will outline the $2.8 billion spend in Thursday’s state budget, which will fund the construction of a 500 megawatt battery energy storage system in the southern coal town of Collie before the end of 2025.

The new system will provide around 500 megawatts for up to four hours, while additional cash will be allocated to a 200MW battery in the southern suburb of Kwinana. These batteries will collect excess energy from the state’s rooftop solar system during the day and release it at peak periods.
Mr McGowan said the new battery storage was essential in transitioning the southwest energy system towards net-zero by 2050, and stabilising the grid ahead of the retirement of coal-fired power plants in coming years.
“This major investment in the 2023-24 State Budget will deliver cleaner energy that’s reliable and affordable, building a stronger future for WA,” he said.

“These projects will help to decarbonise our main electricity grid, and Western Australian households as a result, facilitating the retirement of State-owned coal-fired power by 2030 while ensuring a stable and reliable electricity system.”

Another $370m will be spent on new wind farm expansion at King Rocks, and potentially another near Warradarge Wind Farm near Eneabba.

The government expects these projects, which were flagged last year as the government announced the retirement of two state-owned coal-fired power plants, to contribute an extra 210MW to the grid.

The major funding allocation comes a day after WA Energy Minister Bill Johnston flagged a major expansion to the South West Interconnected System (SWIS), foreshadowing more than 4000 kilometres of new transmission lines would be required within 20 years.

Mr Johnston said the current system was too small to accommodate an expected tripling in demand as the private sector begins transitioning to green energy to power heavy industry in WA.

He said the multi-billion battery storage capacity would help transition the current grid away from a high-emission, thermal generation base to a low-emission renewable system.

“This significant investment in battery storage in this Budget will ensure new renewable generation is ‘firmed’ so electricity supply can always meet demand in an increasingly green grid,” he said.

The WA government plans to expand the SWIS are contained within a new assessment document released on Tuesday, nine months after the government committed to a fast-tracked review of future electricity demand on the network.

The SWIS runs from Kalbarri, more than 500 kilometres north of Perth, through the capital and south to Albany, extending to Kalgoorlie in the east.

 

[qldfrog]

I mentioned the idea for using depts and cement blocks gravity battery inold mine sites a while back
Hey. I am not the only loony
It is actually thought about

How coal mines could be turned into giant "batteries" for energy storage

Old coal mines can be converted into "gravity batteries" by retrofitting them with equipment that raises and lowers giant piles of sand.

bigthink.com

 

[qldfrog]

I mentioned the idea for using depts and cement blocks gravity battery inold mine sites a while back
Hey. I am not the only loony
It is actually thought about

How coal mines could be turned into giant "batteries" for energy storage

Old coal mines can be converted into "gravity batteries" by retrofitting them with equipment that raises and lowers giant piles of sand.

bigthink.com

Have to say the article while using the same idea.. leverage the depth is quite silly...fill the bottom with water and pump up, drop..
The size of the access shafts are quite small in most places, some have ramps etc
I was more thinking open cut for the cement block solution ..but then water evaporates more

 

[sptrawler]

Bowen deciding to wait to have the argument until it is required, which is fair enough, as long as he doesn't leave it too long and paint himself into a corner.

‘It makes no sense to me’: Bowen rules out nuclear power​

Opposition leader Peter Dutton says Australia must consider small modular nuclear plants as part of its power mix but Labor says the energy source doesn’t stack up with renewables.

 

[SirRumpole]

Bowen deciding to wait to have the argument until it is required, which is fair enough, as long as he doesn't leave it too long and paint himself into a corner.

‘It makes no sense to me’: Bowen rules out nuclear power​

Opposition leader Peter Dutton says Australia must consider small modular nuclear plants as part of its power mix but Labor says the energy source doesn’t stack up with renewables.

He shouldn't be ruling it out forever, it may become viable one day.

 

[sptrawler]

A very good article on the issues that renewable grids are facing.

California duck curve now a canyon as grid load vanishes in the midday sun | RenewEconomy

reneweconomy-com-au.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Smurf1976]

A very good article on the issues that renewable grids are facing.

California duck curve now a canyon as grid load vanishes in the midday sun | RenewEconomy

reneweconomy-com-au.cdn.ampproject.org

SA has beaten California to that one.

SA system load actually goes negative at times. That is, the distribution network feeds transmission with the only net load being export to Victoria.

In the Australian context WA and Victoria are both rapidly heading in the same direction with Tasmania being the only state no expected to reach that point of zero net system load, due to distributed solar, in due course.

 

[mullokintyre]

Bowen deciding to wait to have the argument until it is required, which is fair enough, as long as he doesn't leave it too long and paint himself into a corner.

‘It makes no sense to me’: Bowen rules out nuclear power​

Opposition leader Peter Dutton says Australia must consider small modular nuclear plants as part of its power mix but Labor says the energy source doesn’t stack up with renewables.

I can guess why it makes no sense to Bowen, given he has the mental capacity of a half eaten peanut butter sandwich.
It has not stopped the finns from benefitting from a long delayed Nuclear Power Plant, with power prices dropping by 75% since its initial startup.
It also produces almost zero CO2.

From Zero hedge

The Olkiluoto 3 (OL3) nuclear plant completed the transition from testing to regular output last month to become Finland’s first new nuclear plant in more than four decades. It is expected to produce up to 15 percent of the country’s power demand.

And while the plant’s production is still in its early days, its launch has had a considerable effect on Finland’s energy prices, lowering the electricity spot price in the country from €245.98 per megawatt-hour (MWh) in December to €60.55 per MWh in April, a reduction of more than 75 percent, according to physical electricity exchange, Nord Pool.

Energy prices had risen sharply in the Scandinavian country after the Finnish government banned electricity imports from neighboring Russia last year due to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine. The utilization of nuclear power will be welcomed by Finnish consumers, particularly given the fact that Finland has the highest per-capita electricity consumption in the European Union.

“We have had more stability in the system because of OL3. It’s a huge nuclear plant, one of the biggest in the world, connected to a small system,” said Jukka Ruusunen, chief executive of Finland’s national grid operator Fingrid. “It has its own risks, which we are happy to follow up on,” he added.
Speaking to The National, Ruusunen explained that wind power is expected to be the largest source of energy production in Finland by 2027, with nuclear currently being a useful and reliable substitute.

He said that wind power is capable of attracting greater investment, with nuclear energy seemingly being blacklisted by a number of environmental investors.

“Nuclear, it seems, is not very attractive for the investors. This is what they say. But, it’s an option and I’m sure that our politicians would be in favor of these decisions,” he told the news site.
There are also business concerns:
“Who dares to put billions of euros into nuclear?” he asked.
Nuclear, however, continues to be an increasingly popular source of energy production in many EU nations with France, Sweden, Poland and Hungary all seeking to expand their nuclear energy output.

Last month, Poland secured $4 billion in U.S. funding to help build 20 small modular reactors across the country by 2029, while Hungary is focused on expanding its Paks nuclear power plant.

The Finnish example is a testament to how nuclear can play a part in solving the current energy crisis, with consumers still paying sky-high fees for energy in many European countries.

Germany, however, went the opposite way and controversially closed down its three remaining nuclear power plants last month. High inflation, high energy costs, and a sharp decline in industrial output have led to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) predicting a recession is in the cards for Europe’s powerhouse.

Mick

 

[sptrawler]

SA has beaten California to that one.

SA system load actually goes negative at times. That is, the distribution network feeds transmission with the only net load being export to Victoria.

In the Australian context WA and Victoria are both rapidly heading in the same direction with Tasmania being the only state no expected to reach that point of zero net system load, due to distributed solar, in due course.

The big issue that California has that that W.A, S.A and Tassie doesn't, is a 13GW load ramp in three hours, jeez that takes a lot of dispatchable standby generation, ready to go in a very short time,?
13GW in three hours, that really takes some getting my head around and that is only one State, when you consider all of the U.S that is not going to work with batteries IMO.

 

[Smurf1976]

The big issue that California has that that W.A, S.A and Tassie doesn't, is a 13GW load ramp in three hours, jeez that takes a lot of dispatchable standby generation, ready to go in a very short time,?
13GW in three hours, that really takes some getting my head around and that is only one State, when you consider all of the U.S that is not going to work with batteries IMO.

We don't have that in one state agreed but we're not far from it across the total NEM, it's roughly comparable to California in terms of the actual numbers.

Now the same chart without wind and solar for clarity as to the load on dispatchable generation:

Peak = 27,773 MW at 18:00 eastern states time.

Three hours prior at 15:00 the load on dispatchable generation was 15,491 MW so it's extremely similar. Where the difference arises of course is that we've got that spread across five states not one.

Peak is higher, 29,314 MW, if wind and solar are included. Wind supplied 1532 MW whilst solar supplied 9 MW (75% of that in SA and most of the rest in western Qld since it's almost dark) .

 

[qldfrog]

'Dark underbelly': The hidden human toll behind Australia's love affair with cheap solar panels

For millions of Australians, solar panels have been a ticket to cheap, clean power. But researchers and human rights activists warn there's a dark side to their supply and changes are needed.

www.abc.net.au

Wokism is never happy until we are all, actually back to a few, living in a cave.....
Proudly brought to you by their ABC..

 

[sptrawler]

Well I wonder if there will be a domestic reservation policy for this export of energy, I doubt it, that would be too intelligent. ?

Sounds like the East Coast gas fiasco all over again.?
FW's led by FW"s IMO.

Mike Cannon-Brookes wins control of Sun Cable after solar farm fall-out with Andrew Forrest

Billionaire Mike Cannon-Brookes claims control of the controversial Sun Cable solar export project, winning a bidding war after falling out with his former project partner, Andrew Forrest.

www.abc.net.au

But, in a statement, Mr Cannon-Brookes said the outcome was "a big step in the right direction":

"We've always believed in the possibilities Sun Cable presents in exporting our boundless sunshine, and what it could mean for Australia. It's time to stretch our country's ambition. We need to take big swings if we are going to be a renewable energy superpower. So swing we will."

 

[sptrawler]

Well this shows some countries aren't as mentally retarded as us, they mothball stuff, rather than blow it up to make a bold statement. ?

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

Taiwan Considers Keeping Nuclear Reactors on Emergency Standby​

• Government to maintain reactors if power tight: vice president
• The island has planned to phase out nuclear power by 2025

Taiwan is considering keeping nuclear power plants on standby in case of emergencies, signaling a loosening of policy to phase out the energy source.

The government plans to maintain shut reactors so that they could be restarted in an emergency, Taipei-based United Daily News reported, citing Vice President Lai Ching-te, the ruling Democratic Progressive Party’s presidential candidate. It’s the first time the

 

[mullokintyre]

Life got a little more complicated.
Callide power station repair has been pushed out further.
From ABC News

Wholesale power prices are expected to rise because of a delay in bringing two central Queensland coal-fired generators back online, the state's deputy premier said.

Key points:​

• The two units were expected to come online progressively from September
• That has now been pushed back to next year
• Deputy Premier Steven Miles said the delay was "frustrating"

A fire at Callide Power Station, near Biloela, in May 2021 triggered one of the state's worst power outages in decades.

The two units were expected to progressively come back online from September.

But the owner, CS Energy, on Tuesday said this timeline has been set back.

One of the units, C3, is now predicted to be back at half its capacity from January next year.

C4 is expected to return from May next year.

Folks are desperate to get these damn coal buring power stations shutdown, but when they do, power prices rise.
Just makes so much sense.
Wonder how many more delays there will be.

Mick

 

[sptrawler]

Life got a little more complicated.
Callide power station repair has been pushed out further.
From ABC News

Folks are desperate to get these damn coal buring power stations shutdown, but when they do, power prices rise.
Just makes so much sense.
Wonder how many more delays there will be.

Mick

The more units that aren't available, the less they will have to take the others off and on, which results in less maintenance and failures. Sounds like a good move to me, if I owned a station with say four units, I would much prefer to run two constantly than four intermitently.

 

[IFocus]

Well this shows some countries aren't as mentally retarded as us, they mothball stuff, rather than blow it up to make a bold statement. ?

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

Taiwan Considers Keeping Nuclear Reactors on Emergency Standby​

• Government to maintain reactors if power tight: vice president
• The island has planned to phase out nuclear power by 2025

Taiwan is considering keeping nuclear power plants on standby in case of emergencies, signaling a loosening of policy to phase out the energy source.

The government plans to maintain shut reactors so that they could be restarted in an emergency, Taipei-based United Daily News reported, citing Vice President Lai Ching-te, the ruling Democratic Progressive Party’s presidential candidate. It’s the first time the

Not to mention decommissioning costs would be extreme

 

[Smurf1976]

The more units that aren't available, the less they will have to take the others off and on, which results in less maintenance and failures. Sounds like a good move to me, if I owned a station with say four units, I would much prefer to run two constantly than four intermitently.

Agree on the economics for the owner.

Trouble is on the technical side there's not a lot of reserve margin left. If anything else major goes wrong, things will get "interesting" and not in a good way.

Plus whilst politicians will say wholesale prices aren't retail prices, ultimately they'll be passed on. It's like any business input - put up the cost and ultimately consumers end up paying.

To elaborate on the detail of recommissioning dates, the latest is:

Unit C3:
7 January 2024 at 233 MW
18 February 2024 at full capacity 466 MW

Unit C4:
19 May 2024 at 210 MW
6 July 2024 at 420 MW
Will later be raised to 466 MW following testing

For both units nominal capacity is 424 MW, overload rating is 466 MW.

Recent photo of C4 reconstruction (official photo not mine)

Callide B next door is nominally 2 x 350MW but generally run to 320MW per unit. Both are presently in service running normally.

 

[sptrawler]

Agree on the economics for the owner.

Trouble is on the technical side there's not a lot of reserve margin left. If anything else major goes wrong, things will get "interesting" and not in a good way.

Whether it is the owners responsibility to ensure a reserve margin or the governments, will be the major discussion as the transition moves on and the coal generators become more worn out.
It will be interesting to see who pays for the accelerated wear caused by excessive cycling, as I am thinking, this period will take a lot longer than people expect.
I don't think getting the first 40GW of renewable generation will be a problem, what happens then, is when it will get really interesting IMO.

 

[Smurf1976]

Whether it is the owners responsibility to ensure a reserve margin or the governments, will be the major discussion as the transition moves on and the coal generators become more worn out.
It will be interesting to see who pays for the accelerated wear caused by excessive cycling, as I am thinking, this period will take a lot longer than people expect.

There's 3500MW of wind generation running in Victoria right now but at other times it's zero.

Therein lies the problem. Deep storage, pumped hydro, needed to be built starting a decade ago to avoid these problems but in practice, even today we're still going slow with that one.

Trouble is, a lot of the existing coal plant simply won't withstand too many years of cyclic operation. Not when it's ~35 years old already.