The future of energy generation and storage

[Belli]

Wonderful, great, nice and all that but it beggars belief why Governments are paying for what private (or not so private) enterprise should be doing. I am a simpleton but if Governments pay for it, they should own it. Sufficient storage to power one-third of Canberra for two hours.

Big battery project gets a big battery | Canberra CityNews

The ACT government will spend $300 million to $400 million on a large-scale battery storage facility in Williamsdale, south of Canberra, in the next stage of the Big Canberra Battery project.

citynews.com.au

 

[SirRumpole]

Wonderful, great, nice and all that but it beggars belief why Governments are paying for what private (or not so private) enterprise should be doing. I am a simpleton but if Governments pay for it, they should own it. Sufficient storage to power one-third of Canberra for two hours.

Big battery project gets a big battery | Canberra CityNews

The ACT government will spend $300 million to $400 million on a large-scale battery storage facility in Williamsdale, south of Canberra, in the next stage of the Big Canberra Battery project.

citynews.com.au

You are not the only simpleton around here my friend.

 

[SirRumpole]

A $...fight is evolving among industry 'experts' and AEMO on plans to build new transmission infrastructure in Western Victoria.

Who is right ?

Maybe ASF's experts can make it clearer for us.

Sparks fly as energy experts call plans for transmission projects 'monumental mistake'

Energy experts call on state and federal governments and AEMO to scrap major projects planned for Victoria, warning they will lead to higher bills and greater blackout and bushfire risks.

www.abc.net.au

 

[mullokintyre]

A $...fight is evolving among industry 'experts' and AEMO on plans to build new transmission infrastructure in Western Victoria.

Who is right ?

Maybe ASF's experts can make it clearer for us.

I don't claim to be an expert, but one thing in the article caught my eye.

An AEMO spokesperson said the western Victorian transmission plan would "help share low-cost, diverse electricity from multiple renewable energy zones with consumers across several states".

"Extensive modelling shows that VNI West delivers benefits to consumers in meeting energy reliability and security as ageing coal-fired power stations close," the spokesperson said.

Damn, its those bloody models again. You cam make them tell you want you want to hear by determining what parameters go into the model, what loading you put on each one, and what ones you leave it.
AS the Electrical Engineering prof suggested when the AEMO rejected using the existing Gippsland Transmission lines.

"It has plenty of spare capacity now and can be expanded at a low cost because the easements already exist.

"Why are we not utilising that? AEMO has put various constraints in it's model so that it's not used. It makes no sense at all."

Yep, there are experts and there are "experts".
Mick

 

[Smurf1976]

AS the Electrical Engineering prof suggested when the AEMO rejected using the existing Gippsland Transmission lines.

Gippsland lines basically run Latrobe Valley - Melbourne.

They simply head in the wrong direction to provide any realistic connection to NW Victoria or to NSW, Tasmania being the only other state they provide a path towards.

 

[Smurf1976]

A $...fight is evolving among industry 'experts' and AEMO on plans to build new transmission infrastructure in Western Victoria.

Who is right ?

Maybe ASF's experts can make it clearer for us.

I'll be extremely cautious in what I say for various reasons but let's just say the inevitable has happened.

Most political movements tend to split into factions. Labor has its Left and Right factions, the Liberals have their Moderate, Center-Right and Right factions and so on.

It seems that the broad environmental movement, not specifically referring to The Greens but the overall conservation and movement, has finally gone the same way.

One one side are those who'll be protesting something, anything, until the day they die. It's an all or nothing approach which rejects the notion of "better" and seeks perfection at all costs.

On the other side are those who've had enough of that and are seeking ways forward. That is, they consider that actual solutions, even imperfect ones, to the various problems are far better than forever marching down the street waving placards and reliving the only real success that approach had which is 40 years ago now.

Now to the transmission line, from a technical point it addresses the problem of insufficient capacity between NW Victoria and the rest of Victoria, in doing so bringing benefits for SA and NSW as well. Because at present, we have the rather unfortunate situation of forced flow, via a single circuit DC link, from NW Vic into SA on a routine basis.

Opposing the line are (1) farmers not generally opposed in principle but concerned about practical impacts which come down to the specific location of the line (2) farmers who in truth are worried about it impacting their ability to subdivide their farm for residential building land and (3) hardline protestors and activists.

In favour of the line are (1) renewable energy advocates (2) AEMO, engineers, governments and anyone else simply wanting to keep the lights on (3) what I'll term the pragmatic faction of the environmental movement that sees big electrical projects as perhaps not ideal, but a lot less bad than climate change.

From a technical perspective quite simply no, there is not a single circuit transmission line being built from Tasmania to Townsville as Professor Mountain claims. Individual lines are built as single or dual circuit yes, and a group of lines is commonly shown on a map as a single line for simplicity, but the bulk transmission routes are 2+ circuits in the context of running between states.

Qld - NSW is 2 x 330kV AC lines and there's the DC line as well.

NSW - Vic there's 3 x 330kV, 1 x 220kV and also via Hume power station there's a connection that's 66kV on the Victorian side and 132kV on the NSW side.

SA - Vic there's 2 x 275KV, which connects to 2 x 500kV lines not far into Victoria, plus there's the separate DC line as well.

Tas - Vic is the exception, that is a single circuit DC line. Hence the proposal to build a second and ultimately third cable across Bass Strait.

Within the states it gets more complicated but bottom line is the bulk transmission system generally comprises 2+ circuits from A to B. though not always following the same physical route. Some exceptions do exist, for example the line from Mildura to Broken Hill is single circuit and likewise the smaller hydro, gas turbine and wind / solar generators are often connected via a single circuit line simply because there's no real need to do otherwise.

Those single circuits don't threaten the entire system, worst case if they fail then a mine or low population area loses power or they take a small power station offline but they don't threaten the system overall. Larger stations are all on multiple circuits for reliability.

Vic - Tas being the exception but even that won't matter most of the time. There are circumstances where it would, it could cause some blackouts in Vic during periods of extreme demand and it could require more gas to be used for generation in Tas, but ultimately society won't crash and burn. Bearing in mind that Tas was a completely isolated system, not connected to any other state, until late-2005 anyway.

So I really don't know what he's on about there but it's simply not a correct statement.

Transmission maps as below.

Note there's nothing further west in SA so I've cut that off. Map source = AEMO and noting this is all freely available to anyone who wants it, there's nothing hidden or confidential about any of this stuff.

Voltages:
Yellow = 500kV
Orange = 330kV
Pink = 275kV
Blue = 220kV
Red = 110 and 132kV
Brown 66kV and lower

 

[mullokintyre]

I'll be extremely cautious in what I say for various reasons but let's just say the inevitable has happened.

Most political movements tend to split into factions. Labor has its Left and Right factions, the Liberals have their Moderate, Center-Right and Right factions and so on.

It seems that the broad environmental movement, not specifically referring to The Greens but the overall conservation and movement, has finally gone the same way.

One one side are those who'll be protesting something, anything, until the day they die. It's an all or nothing approach which rejects the notion of "better" and seeks perfection at all costs.

On the other side are those who've had enough of that and are seeking ways forward. That is, they consider that actual solutions, even imperfect ones, to the various problems are far better than forever marching down the street waving placards and reliving the only real success that approach had which is 40 years ago now.

Now to the transmission line, from a technical point it addresses the problem of insufficient capacity between NW Victoria and the rest of Victoria, in doing so bringing benefits for SA and NSW as well. Because at present, we have the rather unfortunate situation of forced flow, via a single circuit DC link, from NW Vic into SA on a routine basis.

Opposing the line are (1) farmers not generally opposed in principle but concerned about practical impacts which come down to the specific location of the line (2) farmers who in truth are worried about it impacting their ability to subdivide their farm for residential building land and (3) hardline protestors and activists.

In favour of the line are (1) renewable energy advocates (2) AEMO, engineers, governments and anyone else simply wanting to keep the lights on (3) what I'll term the pragmatic faction of the environmental movement that sees big electrical projects as perhaps not ideal, but a lot less bad than climate change.

From a technical perspective quite simply no, there is not a single circuit transmission line being built from Tasmania to Townsville as Professor Mountain claims. Individual lines are built as single or dual circuit yes, and a group of lines is commonly shown on a map as a single line for simplicity, but the bulk transmission routes are 2+ circuits in the context of running between states.

Qld - NSW is 2 x 330kV AC lines and there's the DC line as well.

NSW - Vic there's 3 x 330kV, 1 x 220kV and also via Hume power station there's a connection that's 66kV on the Victorian side and 132kV on the NSW side.

SA - Vic there's 2 x 275KV, which connects to 2 x 500kV lines not far into Victoria, plus there's the separate DC line as well.

Tas - Vic is the exception, that is a single circuit DC line. Hence the proposal to build a second and ultimately third cable across Bass Strait.

Within the states it gets more complicated but bottom line is the bulk transmission system generally comprises 2+ circuits from A to B. though not always following the same physical route. Some exceptions do exist, for example the line from Mildura to Broken Hill is single circuit and likewise the smaller hydro, gas turbine and wind / solar generators are often connected via a single circuit line simply because there's no real need to do otherwise.

Those single circuits don't threaten the entire system, worst case if they fail then a mine or low population area loses power or they take a small power station offline but they don't threaten the system overall. Larger stations are all on multiple circuits for reliability.

Vic - Tas being the exception but even that won't matter most of the time. There are circumstances where it would, it could cause some blackouts in Vic during periods of extreme demand and it could require more gas to be used for generation in Tas, but ultimately society won't crash and burn. Bearing in mind that Tas was a completely isolated system, not connected to any other state, until late-2005 anyway.

So I really don't know what he's on about there but it's simply not a correct statement.

Transmission maps as below.

Note there's nothing further west in SA so I've cut that off. Map source = AEMO and noting this is all freely available to anyone who wants it, there's nothing hidden or confidential about any of this stuff.

Voltages:
Yellow = 500kV
Orange = 330kV
Pink = 275kV
Blue = 220kV
Red = 110 and 132kV
Brown 66kV and lower
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Thanks Smurf, I have learned more from you about HV power distribution than the time i spent at Uni.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

It looks like the low hanging fruit is getting snapped up, it would be nice if someone would chuck in some long duration storage IMO.
Shut down 2,000MW at call station and put in a 700MW 4hr duration battery, that's going to fix it.
I wonder when all this will come to a head due a lack of dispatchable plant, it is an interesting time to live through, that's for sure.
At least it sounds as though the energy minister, is getting nervous.

Origin commits $600m for battery to replace coal plant

The energy company announced on Thursday the final investment decision to commit $600 million for the first stage of the large-scale battery project, with work to begin within weeks.

Origin said it will continue to assess the market, which will help inform the timing for closure of all four units at Eraring, near Lake Macquarie.

"Approval of the Eraring battery is an important milestone for Origin and another significant step in our strategy to lead the energy transition and accelerate renewable energy and storage in our portfolio," Origin CEO Frank Calabria said.

Energy Minister Penny Sharpe has not ruled out intervening to keep Eraring open beyond its scheduled closure date of 2025, because it supplies about a quarter of NSW's energy needs.

"Development of the Eraring battery is a key next step as we look to transform the Eraring site for the future, given our intention to exit coal-fired generation by as early as August 2025," he said.

Mr Jarvis said Origin will also "actively engage" with the market operator, the NSW government, and the local community on plans for Eraring's closure.

Stage one involves construction of a 460 megawatt battery storage system anticipated to come online in the final three months of 2025.

Origin has the option to increase the battery to 700MW and double dispatch duration to four hours, under approvals already in place.

Battery equipment will be supplied by Finnish technology group Wartsila, while design and construction services will be provided by Enerven, a subsidiary of SA Power Networks.

 

[Smurf1976]

Shut down 2,000MW at call station and put in a 700MW 4hr duration battery, that's going to fix it.

As a technicality it's 2922 MW at the limit

4 x 720 MW steam units if they're pushed hard enough using the best coal but they get to ~695 - 700 MW more easily. Original nameplate rating and how the former Electricity Commission of NSW ran them was a maximum of 660 MW each, they did that reliably on any available coal and weren't being stressed too hard.

Plus a gas turbine that can be pushed to 42 MW in theory though in practice 40 MW would be more usual. Might get all 42 if it's cold enough.

That's being pedantic though.....

The big issue that's being overlooked with all this, especially in NSW, is energy as distinct from peak power as I've posted about in another thread.

 

[sptrawler]

As a technicality it's 2922 MW at the limit

4 x 720 MW steam units if they're pushed hard enough using the best coal but they get to ~695 - 700 MW more easily. Original nameplate rating and how the former Electricity Commission of NSW ran them was a maximum of 660 MW each, they did that reliably on any available coal and weren't being stressed too hard.

Plus a gas turbine that can be pushed to 42 MW in theory though in practice 40 MW would be more usual. Might get all 42 if it's cold enough.

That's being pedantic though.....

Yeh but we are getting a battery, I mean everyone wants one. ?

 

[Smurf1976]

Yeh but we are getting a battery, I mean everyone wants one. ?

A related issue with batteries is how to use them.

When there's only a fairly short duration of storage available, with one exception they're all in the 1 - 4 hours range, timing becomes crucial.

There was an actual failure in Victoria in 2019, load shedding of residential and small business actually occurred, with premature discharge of the batteries being the cause of not all but a decent portion of it. They were discharged when other plant, that is fossil or hydro, could've carried the load and thus weren't available when demand rose further and actually needed the batteries.

The technical side of that is reasonably straightforward, it's really just a math task so long as all the data's available and correct, but there's a big gap at present at the administrative / market / financial level with actually doing that.

 

[Smurf1976]

Effects of the partial eclipse yesterday were clearly visible on solar output in WA:

Chart shows output from small systems, that is rooftops etc, in the South-West Interconnected System (SWIS) only. That's SW WA basically.

It would've been even more noticeable up north but I don't have data for that.

 

[Smurf1976]

Liddell unit 4 closed this morning.

Prior to 23-4-23 at 21:20 was running at 320 MW

22:00 - 04:00 - stable operation at 280 MW.

05:55 - 07:55 stable operation 195 MW.

08:00 - here we go. Output at zero just before 8:30am.

Unit 3 was shut last year. Units 1 & 2 are still running but not for much longer. Current plan is to close unit 2 on the 26th (Wednesday) and unit 1 and thus the entire station on 28th so this Friday.

In a practical sense they're really just using up the coal that's left in the pile.

 

[Smurf1976]

Liddell unit 2 taken offline a few minutes ago. Last generation just after 22:20 NSW time.

That leaves unit 1, presently generating 320MW, as the only one still running and it too will be gone later this week.

 

[Smurf1976]

All done now, last generation from Liddell just before 10:30am this morning. It's now at zero.

 

[SirRumpole]

All done now, last generation from Liddell just before 10:30am this morning. It's now at zero.

Did you ever work there ?

 

[Smurf1976]

Did you ever work there ?

No.

I've been there but not as an employee.

One aspect of its closure, apart form the energy supply and employment etc, is that it's one of the few thermal power stations in Australia to have used a freshwater lake as the means of cooling.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Hence there's no cooling towers at Liddell PS (on the right) whilst Bayswater PS (on the left) has 4 large cooling towers, one per unit.

Liddell simply heated the lake which will now go cold. That's one good aspect - the warm water lead to the growth of a rather nasty (to humans) amoeba. Building a lake to dump the heat into is one of those things that seemed like a good idea at the time, a giant outdoor heated pool of sorts and it was indeed open to the public until the amoeba turned up, but which wouldn't be done today.

A modern coal-fired plant uses wet cooling towers or sea water cooling. Or simply air cooling if neither wet method is practical due to lack of sufficient water supply (but air cooling does have some efficiency downsides so wet cooling is always preferred).

 

[Ferret]

I sailed a few regattas on Lake Liddell in the 70's.

No talk of nasty amoebas in those days and the warm water was very pleasant when a cold breeze was blowing!

 

[sptrawler]

The reality of what is really required is starting to be acknowledged.
W.A is a very small grid, compared to the East Coast, so it is feasible IMO.

WA plans huge switch to solar and storage as part of stunning 50GW green energy boom | RenewEconomy

Western Australia unveils stunning plan to build more than 50GW of new capacity, with a focus on solar and storage, to meet electrification and green industry needs.

reneweconomy.com.au

 

[qldfrog]

The reality of what is really required is starting to be acknowledged.
W.A is a very small grid, compared to the East Coast, so it is feasible IMO.

WA plans huge switch to solar and storage as part of stunning 50GW green energy boom | RenewEconomy

Western Australia unveils stunning plan to build more than 50GW of new capacity, with a focus on solar and storage, to meet electrification and green industry needs.

reneweconomy.com.au

Not only is it a small grid but it has even smaller industrial components..than the rest of Australia..which does not say much...
When will we start seeing costing, and not just of free solar power or cheap wind power but the lot: grid storage and baseload and final cost per kw

Considering we are closing our 6 coal plants nationally, that is probably less than the amount going online in a week in the rest of the world,I can check if you want...
at one stage,it would be wise to use our brain and ask some questions. But how dare i?