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The future of energy generation and storage

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On the shortage issue I'll simply note that supply is extremely tight physically, a point I've made on this forum well before the current fuss over price caps indeed before the election of this government.

Each producer this individually holds power over the market. Stop the flow and a shortage we have.

At home, well suffice to say I've got an abundance of #1 fuel oil sitting in a tank. It doesn't go off, ye olde oil burner still runs, so if there's any fuss then at least I'll be toasty warm. Actually it came in handy during a recent 29 hour power failure. Everyone around in the dark meanwhile I've got lights on, I've got working computer and TV and so on and the cat's stretched out on the floor toasting itself.

Downside = it costs just over $1000 to fill that tank. :oops:
 
@SirRumpole now we have got right back to where we started, the AEMO wants a contract monitoring function, IMO kind of says the free market model doesn't work for power generation, I might be wrong.:rolleyes:

Regulator seeks power to scrutinise energy generators​

The Australian Energy Regulator wants measures to help move the system smoothly to net-zero emissions, including a ‘contract monitoring function’.

Can you imagine the public backlash if the media said "well we have forced the coal power stations who supply 70% of our power to be unviable, we have stopped the next most reliable supplier of energy, gas, to be uneconomical to process, but we have got reliable renewable generation between the hours of 10am to 2pm so we have achieved a fantastic goal".
This transmission will cease operating at 16.00 hrs until the sun comes up, which is expected at 7.00 am, goodnight and god bless. Warm blankets and candles will be available at your local distribution centre, these can be located by a flare which is sent up on the hour every hour between sunset and midnight. :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
 
Last edited:
sptrawler said:
@SirRumpole now we have got right back to where we started, the AEMO wants a contract monitoring function, IMO kind of says the free market model doesn't work for power generation, I might be wrong.:rolleyes:

Regulator seeks power to scrutinise energy generators​

The Australian Energy Regulator wants measures to help move the system smoothly to net-zero emissions, including a ‘contract monitoring function’.
Click to expand...

If they are up for a big stoush with the gas/coal companies who don't like intrusion into their business, then more power to AEMO .

Lets have the dirty secrets out in the open.
 
sptrawler said:
the AEMO wants a contract monitoring function
Click to expand...
As a clarification, AEMO and the AER are separate bodies.

Bit like saying the ASX and ASIC. One runs a market, the other regulates as such. Interrelated in that it's the same industry but they're separate entities as such.

Detail aside though, this seems to be finally coming to a head. At this point I think it's fair to say the technical people are all standing well clear and seeing what the politicians end up doing. When there's an out of control bull charging through the streets, it's wise to keep back a bit.

For those interested in what a pumped hydro scheme looks like, this video's not bad:



Scale of this facility is slightly smaller than Snowy 2.0 will be, it's about 13% smaller, but otherwise much the same as a concept.

Incidentally yes I've been there but not for the reasons you might assume. The power station car park is accessible to anyone and was a convenient place to leave the car while we went on the steam train ride up the mountain. I haven't been in the power station - didn't go to the other side of the world to see one of those..... :roflmao:

Gordon in Tas is technically and visually much the same by the way albeit being an on-river scheme not pumped but it's underground, same basic design approach and so on. :2twocents
 
It will be interesting to see how this all pans out, electricity prices rapidly rising and incentives for households to change over from gas to electric appliances.

www.abc.net.au

Gas prices capped in rare intervention, but power bills still set to rise about $700 by end of next financial year

An extraordinary move to temporarily cap gas prices will slow runaway electricity costs, but Australians should still expect to see their bills increase next year.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
From the article:
Gas prices will be capped for a year in an effort to restrain runaway electricity price increases, after a last-minute meeting of parliament before the year's end.
Treasury forecasts the caps will wipe $230 from expected price increases to the average household electricity bill next year.

But the ABC estimates the average household bill will rise by $700 by mid-2024 compared to June this year, based on Treasury figures.
Price caps on coal will also be imposed by the states, with the coal-rich NSW and Queensland governments agreeing at a meeting of national cabinet last week to impose a $125 per tonne price limit.

Coal companies whose operating costs exceed that price limit will be compensated to ensure supply stability.
In return for their necessary support, the Greens won a third measure to ease power prices longer term: a financial assistance package to help households and businesses to electrify their heating and cooking equipment, and move away from gas sooner.

That last-minute deal will be negotiated in the months to come and included in the government's May budget next year.
 
SirRumpole said:
Space based solar power, viable for the future ?

www.abc.net.au

How space-based solar power works — and why it's being considered now

Space agencies are examining the idea of constructing enormous orbital arrays of solar panels, then beaming the power to Earth via microwaves. So how does it work, and can space solar compete with the terrestrial kind?
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
Click to expand...
Back in my Wild youth I was working on microwave comms equipment that was scattered around Victoria.
One of the very first things we leaned was not to be directly in the microwave beam, lest it made on sterile.
Be unfortunate if you happened to get in the microwave beam from one of these.
Mick
 
mullokintyre said:
Back in my Wild youth I was working on microwave comms equipment that was scattered around Victoria.
One of the very first things we leaned was not to be directly in the microwave beam, lest it made on sterile.
Be unfortunate if you happened to get in the microwave beam from one of these.
Mick
Click to expand...

Yes it could cause brain damage and turn one into a Ring Wing Extremist or a Left Wing Extremist depending what side of the brain it took out. ;)
 
Well that didn't take long. ;)

www.abc.net.au

Concerns offshore wind farm project will impact endangered whale breeding

An offshore wind farm proposal that would generate enough energy to power more than 400,000 South Australian homes is slated to be built in a migration and breeding corridor for the endangered southern right whale, raising concerns from a marine conservation group.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

Key points:​

  • A whale conservation group says a proposed offshore wind farm will negatively affect an endangered whale species
  • The proposed project is 10kms off the coast of Kingston, South Australia in a federally declared wildlife area
  • The proposed windfarm is located in a southern right whale migration and breeding corridor
 
sptrawler said:
Well that didn't take long. ;)

www.abc.net.au

Concerns offshore wind farm project will impact endangered whale breeding

An offshore wind farm proposal that would generate enough energy to power more than 400,000 South Australian homes is slated to be built in a migration and breeding corridor for the endangered southern right whale, raising concerns from a marine conservation group.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

Key points:​

  • A whale conservation group says a proposed offshore wind farm will negatively affect an endangered whale species
  • The proposed project is 10kms off the coast of Kingston, South Australia in a federally declared wildlife area
  • The proposed windfarm is located in a southern right whale migration and breeding corridor
Click to expand...
And of course the Microwave beam could also affect the breeding of the whales!
Mick
 
Well we did say it would have to happen, there is absolutely no point in letting ideology get in the way of reality.
2022
thewest.com.au

Griffin Coal given last ditch cash injection by government

The embattled Griffin Coal has been provided a cash injection by the McGowan Government in a bid to keep the miner operational until at least the end January.
thewest.com.au thewest.com.au

It isn't as though it hasn't happened before.
2010
www.perthnow.com.au

Verve in $4m bailout for Griffin Coal

THE State Government has offered to pre-pay up to $4 million worth of Griffin coal for Verve Energy to keep the mine afloat and secure WA's future energy needs.
www.perthnow.com.au www.perthnow.com.au
 
SirRumpole said:
SA powered mainly by renewables for a week.

Well done @Smurf1976. ;)
Click to expand...
I won't claim any credit personally but it does prove, in case anyone's still doubting, that yes wind and and solar most certainly can generate electricity.

What we really need though is more storage so as to avoid the "feast or famine" problem that we have at present when the wind stops.
 
A good article explaining what I've being saying for years, trouble is coming, shutting down coal isn't the issue, keeping it going is the problem.
Way too much BS, has got us into a very scary situation, way too many emotional irrational arguments by people who really just don't have a clue. Years ago when I tried to explain this, I was told I'm a coal lover, a climate denier etc, well let's see how not supporting coal through the transition goes. ?
This article is from a month ago, it just shows how quickly things can change, from definitely no intervention, to intervention.
From we can't just throw away taxpayers money, to how much do you need.
The other issue is, this only covers coal producers in Collie, the Eastern States have a similar issue, but their issue isn't only with the mines, it is with the power stations as well, how do you get the owners to keep thrashing them to death for little or no return?

www.abc.net.au

Warning for WA government to intervene before embattled coal miners drag power system down

An Australian state government is facing calls to launch a major intervention in the energy market to keep the lights on, amid a crisis affecting local coal miners.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
From the article:
One of Australia's most prominent energy investors has called on the West Australian government to intervene in the state's beleaguered coal industry before it collapses and the lights go out.
Oliver Yates, the inaugural head of the federal government's green bank and a senior advisor to investment fund Sentient Impact Group, said WA was headed towards an energy calamity amid a growing crisis affecting its coal industry.

Coal-fired power still accounts for about a third of the electricity used in the state's biggest grid, but the domestic miners responsible for producing the fuel are in financial distress.
In September, Indian-owned Griffin Coal was tipped into receivership with debts of almost $1.5 billion, while Chinese-owned Premier Coal has been hit by a series of setbacks and declining output.
Mr Yates said the problems bedevilling the two miners were only likely to get worse as demand for coal-fired power fell further away in the face of a rising renewable energy industry.
However, the former investment banker said WA still needed the coal assets "until such time as it doesn't", and the state could not afford to let them fail.

And he said it was a similar situation across Australia as other regions that had long been the heart of electricity systems, such as the La Trobe Valley in Victoria and the Hunter in New South Wales, wrestled with the same problems.

"It became pretty obvious to me that the participants in the Collie region … are in financial distress," Mr Yates said.
"They're sweating their assets, which is a common event that occurs when the private sector knows their assets are likely to close.
Mr Yates said it was a "logically sensible" action for the companies to take.

"The problem is when you don't invest in the assets — whether it be equipment or whether it be in the case of a mine just clearing the overburden so you can get to more coal — effectively, you can run into very significant, abrupt problems," he said.
Earlier this year, Premier Mark McGowan announced the government would close its two remaining coal plants — supplied by Premier Coal — by 2029.

That would leave a single coal-fired power station, the 440MW Bluewaters plant controlled by US hedge funds, operating in the state.

According to Mr Yates, who ran the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, the WA government needs to intervene before the woes affecting the local coal industry get much worse.

There were many ways to do this, he said, ranging from direct government control through a so-called transition authority to a regulated company that could be comprised of the state and private investors.

He said it seemed inevitable that the current operators of WA's two coal mines were headed to the wall.
While Mr Yates acknowledged that some private investors would be willing to pick up the pieces, he said the extreme financial, political and social risks involved meant it was only "sharks" who would be interested.

"You can always get the private sector to participate," he said.
"If the state says, 'We really, desperately need this coal to come out, how about we provide guarantees for coal or everyone has got to pay a lot more for coal', it's effectively burleying the waters to the private sector.

WA Energy Minister Bill Johnston conceded the predicament of WA's two coal miners was a serious concern for the government.

However, Mr Johnston argued their problems were inherently private commercial matters, and it would be inappropriate — even unlawful — for the state to intervene.

"While the companies, Griffin and Premier Coal, are operating, there's no legal pathway for the government to take over the mines," Mr Johnston said.
"It's just not possible for the government to ignore the private ownership of the mines."
To deal with shortfalls in production at Premier and Griffin, customers, including state-owned power producer Synergy and mining giant South32 have moved to import coal from abroad despite record prices for the fuel.

Mr Johnston acknowledged the state's energy system would still need coal for some years but did not agree with Mr Yates' assessment.
big worry for Mr Johnston is the financial risk involved for taxpayers in the event the state steps into a failing market.

He noted both coal mines were foreign-owned and stressed the government was unwilling to bail them out of the losses.

"We're not going to transfer wealth from the taxpayers of Western Australia to the foreign owners of these two companies," he said.
"That would not make sense."
Despite the minister's reticence, Mr Yates said a big financial reckoning was coming for the state regardless of whether it wanted one or not.

He said the private sector's overarching motive of profit was irreconcilable with the government's objective of keeping the lights on.

"If you're trying to get a private sector solution out of a Chinese state-owned entity, a company which is broke … and then a power station which is owned by a hedge fund … good luck," Mr Yates said.

"You actually still need coal in WA for a period of time.

"You can't have a disorderly closure of coal.
"It's unfair to workers. It's unfair to industry who will have difficulty coping with sudden supply changes, and it'll actually lead to vastly more expensive costs and risks for all of WA."
 
sptrawler said:
A good article explaining what I've being saying for years, trouble is coming, shutting down coal isn't the issue, keeping it going is the problem.
Way too much BS, has got us into a very scary situation, way too many emotional irrational arguments by people who really just don't have a clue. Years ago when I tried to explain this, I was told I'm a coal lover, a climate denier etc, well let's see how not supporting coal through the transition goes. ?
This article is from a month ago, it just shows how quickly things can change, from definitely no intervention, to intervention.
From we can't just throw away taxpayers money, to how much do you need.
The other issue is, this only covers coal producers in Collie, the Eastern States have a similar issue, but their issue isn't only with the mines, it is with the power stations as well, how do you get the owners to keep thrashing them to death for little or no return?

www.abc.net.au

Warning for WA government to intervene before embattled coal miners drag power system down

An Australian state government is facing calls to launch a major intervention in the energy market to keep the lights on, amid a crisis affecting local coal miners.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
From the article:
One of Australia's most prominent energy investors has called on the West Australian government to intervene in the state's beleaguered coal industry before it collapses and the lights go out.
Oliver Yates, the inaugural head of the federal government's green bank and a senior advisor to investment fund Sentient Impact Group, said WA was headed towards an energy calamity amid a growing crisis affecting its coal industry.

Coal-fired power still accounts for about a third of the electricity used in the state's biggest grid, but the domestic miners responsible for producing the fuel are in financial distress.
In September, Indian-owned Griffin Coal was tipped into receivership with debts of almost $1.5 billion, while Chinese-owned Premier Coal has been hit by a series of setbacks and declining output.
Mr Yates said the problems bedevilling the two miners were only likely to get worse as demand for coal-fired power fell further away in the face of a rising renewable energy industry.
However, the former investment banker said WA still needed the coal assets "until such time as it doesn't", and the state could not afford to let them fail.

And he said it was a similar situation across Australia as other regions that had long been the heart of electricity systems, such as the La Trobe Valley in Victoria and the Hunter in New South Wales, wrestled with the same problems.

"It became pretty obvious to me that the participants in the Collie region … are in financial distress," Mr Yates said.
"They're sweating their assets, which is a common event that occurs when the private sector knows their assets are likely to close.
Mr Yates said it was a "logically sensible" action for the companies to take.

"The problem is when you don't invest in the assets — whether it be equipment or whether it be in the case of a mine just clearing the overburden so you can get to more coal — effectively, you can run into very significant, abrupt problems," he said.
Earlier this year, Premier Mark McGowan announced the government would close its two remaining coal plants — supplied by Premier Coal — by 2029.

That would leave a single coal-fired power station, the 440MW Bluewaters plant controlled by US hedge funds, operating in the state.

According to Mr Yates, who ran the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, the WA government needs to intervene before the woes affecting the local coal industry get much worse.

There were many ways to do this, he said, ranging from direct government control through a so-called transition authority to a regulated company that could be comprised of the state and private investors.

He said it seemed inevitable that the current operators of WA's two coal mines were headed to the wall.
While Mr Yates acknowledged that some private investors would be willing to pick up the pieces, he said the extreme financial, political and social risks involved meant it was only "sharks" who would be interested.

"You can always get the private sector to participate," he said.
"If the state says, 'We really, desperately need this coal to come out, how about we provide guarantees for coal or everyone has got to pay a lot more for coal', it's effectively burleying the waters to the private sector.

WA Energy Minister Bill Johnston conceded the predicament of WA's two coal miners was a serious concern for the government.

However, Mr Johnston argued their problems were inherently private commercial matters, and it would be inappropriate — even unlawful — for the state to intervene.

"While the companies, Griffin and Premier Coal, are operating, there's no legal pathway for the government to take over the mines," Mr Johnston said.
"It's just not possible for the government to ignore the private ownership of the mines."
To deal with shortfalls in production at Premier and Griffin, customers, including state-owned power producer Synergy and mining giant South32 have moved to import coal from abroad despite record prices for the fuel.

Mr Johnston acknowledged the state's energy system would still need coal for some years but did not agree with Mr Yates' assessment.
big worry for Mr Johnston is the financial risk involved for taxpayers in the event the state steps into a failing market.

He noted both coal mines were foreign-owned and stressed the government was unwilling to bail them out of the losses.

"We're not going to transfer wealth from the taxpayers of Western Australia to the foreign owners of these two companies," he said.
"That would not make sense."
Despite the minister's reticence, Mr Yates said a big financial reckoning was coming for the state regardless of whether it wanted one or not.

He said the private sector's overarching motive of profit was irreconcilable with the government's objective of keeping the lights on.

"If you're trying to get a private sector solution out of a Chinese state-owned entity, a company which is broke … and then a power station which is owned by a hedge fund … good luck," Mr Yates said.

"You actually still need coal in WA for a period of time.

"You can't have a disorderly closure of coal.
"It's unfair to workers. It's unfair to industry who will have difficulty coping with sudden supply changes, and it'll actually lead to vastly more expensive costs and risks for all of WA."
Click to expand...

If the government is going to put taxpayers money into coal mines or generators then why doesn't it just buy said assets which would be going dirt cheap, and avoid the same problem with the next owner and the next....
 

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