Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

The future of energy generation and storage

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sptrawler said:
The underlying problem is starting to become obvious, now the States can't blame the Feds.
Click to expand...
Without wanting to be political as such, noting it applies to both major parties, Victoria's a problem far more so than any other state. They're in the worst shape at present from a technical perspective, the only state where AEMO is directly intervening to schedule plant outages, and the least willing to accept their situation.

Qld and NSW are actively pursuing pumped hydro, Tasmania already has extensive storage hydro, meanwhile in SA there's the planned 200MW hydrogen storage and generation project. In contrast there's not a single deep or even medium storage project planned in Victoria - some batteries for short duration use are it at present.

When it comes to one technology versus another, Victoria's really not in a position to argue. They're hugely reliant on Loy Yang's continued operation and haven't yet commenced building anything which would remove that reliance. That's not to say that can continue indefinitely but right now there's really no plan B, Victoria is and remains heavily reliant on coal when wind and solar output drops and there's nothing being built that would end that reliance. :2twocents
 
Expanding on the issue of deep firming of renewables, some charts of daily wind and solar production will explain. A picture paints a thousand words as they say.

Green = wind, yellow = solar.

1657974957739.png


Past year. Chart resolution is daily:

1657975048126.png


So there's two issues when it comes to firming VRE:

1. Daily peak loads versus off peak. So that is moving surplus energy from ~midday to ~6pm which can easily be done with batteries or relatively small pumped hydro systems based on old quarry pits and so on as the water storage.

2. How to deal with sustained energy deficits driven by periods of poor wind and solar yield. For example that which occurred between the 8th and 13th of May (6 days), again from 19 May to 24 May (6 days) and again from 26 May to 30 May (5 days).

The latter is far beyond the capabilities of any present or proposed battery system, they generally have running times of 1 - 4 hours, and it's beyond the capabilities of "easy" pumped hydro schemes based on old quarries and so on.

What that deep firming requires is either some sort of fuel burning backup (fossil fuels, biomass, hydrogen) or it's long duration storage hydro which, in practical terms to economic, means dams as such not just filling an old gravel quarry with water.

At present AEMO's assuming the ongoing use of fossil fuels for that purpose combined with existing hydro + Snowy 2.0 + interstate transmission upgrades which don't eliminate variation but due dampen it somewhat. :2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
Smurf takes a 10 minute shower. Calculate the cost of energy consumed and separately calculate the quantity of any primary energy source of your choice required to heat the water. Answers required relate to heating the water only, you may ignore the cost of water itself and the energy used to pump it. Your answer may be based on any technology in commercial use other than a solar water heater. State all assumptions and show all working.
Click to expand...

OK, here goes.

The 'average' shower uses say 20 litres per minute so that's 200 litres for a 10 minute shower.

www.averageaussie.com.au

How much water does a shower use in Australia? - Average Aussie

How much water does a shower use depends on your showerhead and how long you shower for. Older style showerheads use between 15-20 litres per minute.
www.averageaussie.com.au www.averageaussie.com.au

The temperature of hot water in Australia is at least 70C.

cheapahotwater.com.au

How do I set the temperature of my hot water heater?

What temperature should your hot water be? Important: Always employ a professional to adjust the temperature of your hot water heater.
cheapahotwater.com.au cheapahotwater.com.au

Assume an initial water temp of 20C. (50C raising of temperature)

According to a formula I found on line https://sciencing.com/calculate-time-heat-water-8028611.html

Calculate the kilowatt-hours (kWh) required to heat the water using the following formula: Pt = (4.2 × L × T ) ÷ 3600. Pt is the power used to heat the water, in kWh. L is the number of liters of water that is being heated and T is the difference in temperature from what you started with, listed in degrees Celsius.

So, Power required (P) = (4.2 * 200 * 50) /3600.

P = 11.67 kwH

According to this site https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/electricity-costs-kwh/

the cost of power in NSW (where I am) is 0.2274 $ /kwH, so the cost of my shower is 11.67 * 0.2274 = $2.65.

Smurf in SA pays .3152 $/kwH, so his shower costs $3.68.

Did I get close ?
 
SirRumpole said:
OK, here goes.

The 'average' shower uses say 20 litres per minute so that's 200 litres for a 10 minute shower.

www.averageaussie.com.au

How much water does a shower use in Australia? - Average Aussie

How much water does a shower use depends on your showerhead and how long you shower for. Older style showerheads use between 15-20 litres per minute.
www.averageaussie.com.au www.averageaussie.com.au

The temperature of hot water in Australia is at least 70C.

cheapahotwater.com.au

How do I set the temperature of my hot water heater?

What temperature should your hot water be? Important: Always employ a professional to adjust the temperature of your hot water heater.
cheapahotwater.com.au cheapahotwater.com.au

Assume an initial water temp of 20C. (50C raising of temperature)

According to a formula I found on line https://sciencing.com/calculate-time-heat-water-8028611.html

Calculate the kilowatt-hours (kWh) required to heat the water using the following formula: Pt = (4.2 × L × T ) ÷ 3600. Pt is the power used to heat the water, in kWh. L is the number of liters of water that is being heated and T is the difference in temperature from what you started with, listed in degrees Celsius.

So, Power required (P) = (4.2 * 200 * 50) /3600.

P = 11.67 kwH

According to this site https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/electricity-costs-kwh/

the cost of power in NSW (where I am) is 0.2274 $ /kwH, so the cost of my shower is 11.67 * 0.2274 = $2.65.

Smurf in SA pays .3152 $/kwH, so his shower costs $3.68.

Did I get close ?
Click to expand...
So I got it wrong or what ?
 

Tractors take to the streets of Ballarat as farmers protest Western Renewables Link - ABC News​



And that is exactly what usually happens to regional folks.
We pay huge amounts in fuel levies to drive around on sub standard roads.
Public transport is non existent outside the metro areas, but we all have to pay to subsidise it.
We have poor health outcomes because we usually hav to travel to the big regional cities or the capital cities for specialist treatments from opthamology to oncology.
And of course, as the article mentioned, if the nimby city folk want rennewables, they don't want it in their backyard, but want it away from them having their nice views besmirched by towers , turbines and acres of panels.
And to add insult to injury, they want their renewables and to close down fired coal stations, it will be the regional people who lose out on all the jobs. There aint no coal mines in Melbourne.
There, is that enuff bile for the morning?
Mick
 
SirRumpole said:
OK, here goes.

The 'average' shower uses say 20 litres per minute so that's 200 litres for a 10 minute shower.

www.averageaussie.com.au

How much water does a shower use in Australia? - Average Aussie

How much water does a shower use depends on your showerhead and how long you shower for. Older style showerheads use between 15-20 litres per minute.
www.averageaussie.com.au www.averageaussie.com.au

The temperature of hot water in Australia is at least 70C.

cheapahotwater.com.au

How do I set the temperature of my hot water heater?

What temperature should your hot water be? Important: Always employ a professional to adjust the temperature of your hot water heater.
cheapahotwater.com.au cheapahotwater.com.au

Assume an initial water temp of 20C. (50C raising of temperature)

According to a formula I found on line https://sciencing.com/calculate-time-heat-water-8028611.html

Calculate the kilowatt-hours (kWh) required to heat the water using the following formula: Pt = (4.2 × L × T ) ÷ 3600. Pt is the power used to heat the water, in kWh. L is the number of liters of water that is being heated and T is the difference in temperature from what you started with, listed in degrees Celsius.

So, Power required (P) = (4.2 * 200 * 50) /3600.

P = 11.67 kwH

According to this site https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/electricity-costs-kwh/

the cost of power in NSW (where I am) is 0.2274 $ /kwH, so the cost of my shower is 11.67 * 0.2274 = $2.65.

Smurf in SA pays .3152 $/kwH, so his shower costs $3.68.

Did I get close ?
Click to expand...
Personally I'd find 70 degrees rather hot for a shower! :oops:

Other than that point though, well based on those assumed flow rates, temperature etc you've got the maths right yes. :xyxthumbs

I've never measured it but the "standard" temperature of a shower is supposedly 42 degrees. :)
 
Smurf1976 said:
Personally I'd find 70 degrees rather hot for a shower! :oops:

Other than that point though, well based on those assumed flow rates, temperature etc you've got the maths right yes. :xyxthumbs

I've never measured it but the "standard" temperature of a shower is supposedly 42 degrees. :)
Click to expand...

OK, but I believe that hot water has to be stored at around 70C (as mentioned in the second link in my answer) to ward off any bugs etc, so it has to be heated to that temperature anyway regardless of what the final mix of hot and cold water in the shower is ?
 
SirRumpole said:
OK, but I believe that hot water has to be stored at around 70C (as mentioned in the second link in my answer) to ward off any bugs etc, so it has to be heated to that temperature anyway regardless of what the final mix of hot and cold water in the shower is ?
Click to expand...
Tank temperature must be 60'C or above as per Australian Standards and the reason is to prevent legionella as you say.

Typical domestic type system will have an upper limit of 70 or 75 which is simply about the materials used - the tank lining and foam insulation will both degrade more rapidly at higher temperature.

From a physics perspective though well if the incoming water is (say) 17 degrees and the shower temperature is 42 degrees then that's a rise of 25 degrees. That you obtained this by mixing 17 degree cold water with 65 degree hot water doesn't change that the total temperature rise is 25 degrees x however many litres come out the shower.

Or to put that another way, the shower head might be flowing say 10 litres per minute but only half that, 5 litres, is coming from the hot water supply and the other half is just cold water. :2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
Tank temperature must be 60'C or above as per Australian Standards and the reason is to prevent legionella as you say.

Typical domestic type system will have an upper limit of 70 or 75 which is simply about the materials used - the tank lining and foam insulation will both degrade more rapidly at higher temperature.

From a physics perspective though well if the incoming water is (say) 17 degrees and the shower temperature is 42 degrees then that's a rise of 25 degrees. That you obtained this by mixing 17 degree cold water with 65 degree hot water doesn't change that the total temperature rise is 25 degrees x however many litres come out the shower.

Or to put that another way, the shower head might be flowing say 10 litres per minute but only half that, 5 litres, is coming from the hot water supply and the other half is just cold water. :2twocents
Click to expand...
Fair enough, so instead of using 200 litres in the equation, that reduces to 100 litres, so the power used and the cost will be halved.
 
New simple cheap energy storage units.

A large well insulated steel silo filled with sand and heated with excess renewable energy. Heats sand to 500C. Around 8 MH of energy storage. Can stay hot for many months. Is an excellent opportunity for many industrial process that currently use gas.

Only problem ? Too simple and cheap. Would be difficult to construct a business case that would make the owners the $million salaries they believe they are entitled to. :)

Science

World's first 'sand battery' can store heat at 500C for months at a time. Could it work in Australia?​

ABC Science
/
By technology reporter James Purtill
Posted 7h ago7 hours ago
=720&cropW=1280&xPos=0&yPos=0&width=862&height=485.jpg

Heat-storing sand batteries like this one in Finland could become a familiar sight at Australian factories looking to cut their gas bills.(Supplied: Polar Night Energy)
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article



The idea of storing heat in sand to warm homes through winter may, on the face of it, seem too simple to work.

Key points:​

  • The world's first commercial "sand battery" stores heat at 500 degrees Celsius for months at a time
  • It can be used to heat homes and offices and provide high-temperature heat for industrial processes
  • Thermal storage could displace gas in industry and remove up to 16 per cent of Australia's emissions, experts say

Drop a load of cheap builder's sand in an insulated silo, heat the sand with renewable electricity, and then tap the stored thermal energy for months on end.

In an age of green hydrogen, lithium-ion batteries and other high-tech energy solutions, it can't work, right?

Finland begs to differ. This month saw the Nordic nation launch the world's first commercial "sand battery".
About 230 kilometres north-west of Helsinki, in the town of Kankaanpää, homes, offices and the public swimming pool are being heated by thermal energy stored in a 7-metre steel container filled with 100 tonnes of sand.

www.abc.net.au

World's first giant 'sand battery' shows how energy solutions can be simple

The world's first commercial "sand battery" stores heat at 500C for months at a time. So how does it work, and should we build them in Australia?
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
So how does it work, what else can it be used for, and should we build them in Australia?
 
basilio said:
New simple cheap energy storage units.

A large well insulated steel silo filled with sand and heated with excess renewable energy. Heats sand to 500C. Around 8 MH of energy storage. Can stay hot for many months. Is an excellent opportunity for many industrial process that currently use gas.

Only problem ? Too simple and cheap. Would be difficult to construct a business case that would make the owners the $million salaries they believe they are entitled to. :)

Science

World's first 'sand battery' can store heat at 500C for months at a time. Could it work in Australia?​

ABC Science
/
By technology reporter James Purtill
Posted 7h ago7 hours ago
View attachment 144276
Heat-storing sand batteries like this one in Finland could become a familiar sight at Australian factories looking to cut their gas bills.(Supplied: Polar Night Energy)
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article



The idea of storing heat in sand to warm homes through winter may, on the face of it, seem too simple to work.

Key points:​

  • The world's first commercial "sand battery" stores heat at 500 degrees Celsius for months at a time
  • It can be used to heat homes and offices and provide high-temperature heat for industrial processes
  • Thermal storage could displace gas in industry and remove up to 16 per cent of Australia's emissions, experts say

Drop a load of cheap builder's sand in an insulated silo, heat the sand with renewable electricity, and then tap the stored thermal energy for months on end.

In an age of green hydrogen, lithium-ion batteries and other high-tech energy solutions, it can't work, right?

Finland begs to differ. This month saw the Nordic nation launch the world's first commercial "sand battery".
About 230 kilometres north-west of Helsinki, in the town of Kankaanpää, homes, offices and the public swimming pool are being heated by thermal energy stored in a 7-metre steel container filled with 100 tonnes of sand.

www.abc.net.au

World's first giant 'sand battery' shows how energy solutions can be simple

The world's first commercial "sand battery" stores heat at 500C for months at a time. So how does it work, and should we build them in Australia?
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
So how does it work, what else can it be used for, and should we build them in Australia?
Click to expand...

That's a very interesting option.

Power could be derived using an old invention called a Stirling engine that works on a temperature differential between two points that heats and cools gases to move pistons.
 
Saw this book today, downloaded it on my Kindle, looks like an interesting read for people interested in the future of energy.

I noticed along with being an engineer, the author also lists his profession as being an investor, so hopefully he had some good insights from both the engineering and investment perspective.

9388F1F5-2166-4110-8722-CA55F7D51CD7.jpeg
 
I'll let AEMO's Market Notice do the talking here:

1658248291753.png


In short the Newcastle gas storage is completely empty, Dandenong (Vic) is at 51% whilst Iona, the largest, is at 42% and being drawn down rapidly in recent weeks at about 1% of total capacity per day on average.

Details aside, I doubt there'd be too many disagreeing with my thinking that at this point major reform is a given. We've had a major price shock both gas and electricity, suspension of both markets for a period and now physical scarcity of gas.

How that reform manifests is a good question but it's hard to see a scenario that doesn't involve drastic change. Invest accordingly..... :2twocents
 

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