CanOz
Home runs feel good, but base hits pay bills!
- Joined
- 11 July 2006
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Well there you go, lithium battery storage is here now happening....hydrogen is where???
CanOz, here is a good summary, about hydrogen production in Australia.
https://www.theguardian.com/sustain...en-to-export-its-solar-power-around-the-world
I'm sorry SPTrawler, but I have to disagree that Hydrogen is a threat to batteries as a method of energy storage.
I've just spent a bit of time reading around the net on the efficiency of such a set-up.
http://www.catalyticengineering.com/terawatt-hour-energy-storage-power-to-gas/
"Energy storage in hydrogen
Electrolyzers convert water to hydrogen, consuming electricity in the process. The cells aren’t cheap as they require specialized materials, and you lose more than 30% of the energy in conversion. One energy storage concept is to store that hydrogen, then run it back through a fuel cell to convert the hydrogen directly to electricity. But this is expensive, since two stacks are needed (electrolyzer and fuel cell) and the round-trip efficiency is poor (70% electrolyzer x 50% fuel cell = 35% round trip at best). In addition, large high-pressure tank farms would be needed to store appreciable amounts of energy in the form of hydrogen."
That's the theoretical, this one is in an actual test, using the oxygen to increase efficiency.............
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319904001788
"An electrolyzer and a fuel cell have been integrated in a small-scale stand-alone renewable energy system to demonstrate that hydrogen can be used for long-term stationary energy storage. The economic and environmental performance of such a system is strongly related to the ability of the electrolyzer to convert electrical energy to hydrogen and the ability of the fuel cell to convert hydrogen back to electrical energy, which together define the round-trip efficiency of the hydrogen storage system. One promising way to improve the efficiency as well as to decrease the capital costs of the fuel cell is to recuperate the oxygen from the electrolyzer and use it as the fuel cell oxidant instead of compressed air. This paper presents the modifications made to the system in order to implement oxygen recuperation. The round-trip system efficiency was found to be 18% with oxygen recuperation and 13.5% without it."
Those energy efficiency numbers are horrible compared to Lithium-ion batteries, plus I suspect the capital costs of electrolyzers, fuelcells and storage containers for the hydrogen too be way in excess of inverters and lithium-ion batteries.
Li-on batteries do not last forever, but neither do fuel cells, so there is a weak point on both methods.
Just what Toyota are now doing, by starting to play catch up to other car manufacturers, by heading into battery electric vehicles, when they were the leaders in Hydrogen vehicles, tends to indicate which they think will be cheaper in the long run.
Well there you go, lithium battery storage is here now happening....hydrogen is where???
I agree about the current batteries. Expensive, low life, surely heat will be a factor. But they are quick to install for political mileage.I agree completely, it will be 20 to 30 years before hydrogen gets traction.
As I said in my earlier post:
Like I said IMO batteries have a place and will be with us forever, at the moment they are the obvious answer for the immediate problem, however IMO large scale energy storage will end up being hydrogen.
As I said time will tell and it is only my humble opinion
I tried to explain the energy loss to him a while back, his answer is just that so much excess renewable electricity will be produced in the future it will able to be wasted in the hydrogen process.
Not sure how you can come to that conclusion, because renewable projects aren’t free, and they need to generate a return on investment.
Solar power: What happens when we start producing more electricity than we can consume?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-07/solar-power-what-happens-when-theres-too-much/9522192
Wondering where 20 tonnes of hydrogen is going to go if export to Asia is only a "possibility"?'World's largest' solar and wind hydrogen plant proposed for regional SA
The Crystal Brook facility will produce up to 400 megawatts of solar and wind power each day, which will power the site's hydrogen 'electrolyser' to potentially produce 20,000 kilograms of hydrogen daily.
The SA Government has said that exporting the hydrogen products created at the plant to markets in Asia was a possibility.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...d-wind-hydrogen-plant-proposed-for-sa/9526706
Apologies if this has been done already.
Wondering where 20 tonnes of hydrogen is going to go if export to Asia is only a "possibility"?
Apologies if this has been done already.
Wondering where 20 tonnes of hydrogen is going to go if export to Asia is only a "possibility"?
This is a 2006 article but still it would be interesting to know if electrolysis (River Murray source?) is right.and all this energy loss to try and export power from a state that has an energy crisis,
Why a hydrogen economy doesn't make sense
December 11, 2006, Phys.org
In a recent study, fuel cell expert Ulf Bossel explains that a hydrogen economy is a wasteful economy. The large amount of energy required to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds (water, natural gas, biomass), package the light gas by compression or liquefaction, transfer the energy carrier to the user, plus the energy lost when it is converted to useful electricity with fuel cells, leaves around 25% for practical use — an unacceptable value to run an economy in a sustainable future. Only niche applications like submarines and spacecraft might use hydrogen.
“More energy is needed to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds than can ever be recovered from its use,” Bossel explains to PhysOrg.com. “Therefore, making the new chemical energy carrier form natural gas would not make sense, as it would increase the gas consumption and the emission of CO2. Instead, the dwindling fossil fuel reserves must be replaced by energy from renewable sources.”
This is a 2006 article but still it would be interesting to know if electrolysis (River Murray source?) is right.
Electrolysis has been improved with various catalysts. One method uses cobalt and tungsten and alternative is something involving nickel. Still more work needs to be done though.
Oh not the Murray, long way from it. Probably desal. or bore water source.This is a 2006 article but still it would be interesting to know if electrolysis (River Murray source?) is right.
The other great thing about hydrogen it has unlimited storage potential, if you don't use it, you just store it until you need it.
Okay I found the S.A. Hydrogen Road Map. It is the governments plan to run public transport off hydrogen. Rail, bus and governement vehicles.The Crystal Brook hydrogen plant, is the second hydrogen plant S.A has announced.
There won't be any problem finding something to do with 20 tonnes of hydrogen, it could run a gas turbine at the site, when the wind isn't blowing.
The other great thing about hydrogen it has unlimited storage potential, if you don't use it, you just store it until you need it.
South Australia can play a role in creating a regional economy where public transport
fleets here and across Asia can refuel using hydrogen imported from centralised
production facilities built in this State. Our own transport fleets will also be able to
refuel using hydrogen created by electrolysis plants powered by our expanding
renewable energy infrastructure.
The South Australian Government, transport and energy industry leaders and our research institutions recognise an emerging opportunity in the coming decade to accelerate this State’s transition to a hydrogen economy so that we can attract the investment required to create a nation-leading hub for the production, use and export of hydrogen.
The Australian 1:04PM May 4, 2017
CSIRO on brink of breakthrough in enabling hydrogen fuel cell supplies
CSIRO is developing technology to export Australia’s supply of gas and renewable energy in a form that can power next generation hydrogen fuel cell transport.
Australia’s prime research body says it is developing tech that will solve the problem of transporting hydrogen to bowsers that will refuel cars. The technology will also make it commercially viable to export hydrogen overseas as ammonia (NH3) for use in fuel cells
...
However the commercial viability and safety of transporting hydrogen to bowser points is a sticking point and it’s here where CSIRO has announced a two-year project to make this possible domestically and internationally.
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