The future of energy generation and storage

[CanOz]

CanOz, here is a good summary, about hydrogen production in Australia.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustain...en-to-export-its-solar-power-around-the-world

Well there you go, lithium battery storage is here now happening....hydrogen is where???

 

[explod]

Not sure how well this would go or considered but seems like a good supporting option:-

Underwater Ocean Turbines: A New Spin on Clean Energy?
By Tanya Lewis, Staff Writer | August 5, 2014 09:09am ET

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Credit: Crowd Energy
A new technology that harnesses the power of ocean currents could provide a clean and limitless form of renewable energy, some scientists say.

A group of scientists and engineers who describe themselves as "nerds in wetsuits and flippers" has launched a crowdfunding campaign, called Crowd Energy, to do just that. Their idea is to use giant underwater turbines to capture the energy from deep-ocean currents, such as the Gulf Stream off the coast of Florida.

While energy generated from these turbines may not be able to completely replace fossil fuels, as the group claims, the devices could still be an important source of clean energy, experts say.

https://www.livescience.com/47188-ocean-turbines-renewable-energy.html

 

[basilio]

Hydrogen produced from solar power is on the cards in Dubai.

DEWA to pilot region’s first solar-driven hydrogen facility
6 days ago
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Dubai Electricity and Water Authority and Dubai Expo 2020 Bureau have signed a memorandum of understanding to kick start a pilot project for the region’s first solar-driven hydrogen electrolysis facility.

Joe Kaeser, President and CEO of Siemens, HE Reem Al Hashimy, UAE Minister of State for International Cooperation and Director General, Dubai Expo 2020 Bureau, and HE Saeed Mohammed Al Tayer, managing director and CEO, DEWA.

The facility, which will be located at DEWA’s outdoor testing facilities at the Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum Solar Park in Dubai, aims to test and showcase an integrated MW-scale plant to produce hydrogen using renewable energy. By collecting this from solar photovoltaic plates at the Solar Park, the facility will then store the gas and deploy it for either re-electrification, transportation or other industrial uses.

http://inbusiness.ae/2018/02/13/dewa-to-pilot-regions-first-solar-driven-hydrogen-facility/

 

[Value Collector]

I'm sorry SPTrawler, but I have to disagree that Hydrogen is a threat to batteries as a method of energy storage.

I've just spent a bit of time reading around the net on the efficiency of such a set-up.

http://www.catalyticengineering.com/terawatt-hour-energy-storage-power-to-gas/

"Energy storage in hydrogen

Electrolyzers convert water to hydrogen, consuming electricity in the process. The cells aren’t cheap as they require specialized materials, and you lose more than 30% of the energy in conversion. One energy storage concept is to store that hydrogen, then run it back through a fuel cell to convert the hydrogen directly to electricity. But this is expensive, since two stacks are needed (electrolyzer and fuel cell) and the round-trip efficiency is poor (70% electrolyzer x 50% fuel cell = 35% round trip at best). In addition, large high-pressure tank farms would be needed to store appreciable amounts of energy in the form of hydrogen."

That's the theoretical, this one is in an actual test, using the oxygen to increase efficiency.............

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319904001788

"An electrolyzer and a fuel cell have been integrated in a small-scale stand-alone renewable energy system to demonstrate that hydrogen can be used for long-term stationary energy storage. The economic and environmental performance of such a system is strongly related to the ability of the electrolyzer to convert electrical energy to hydrogen and the ability of the fuel cell to convert hydrogen back to electrical energy, which together define the round-trip efficiency of the hydrogen storage system. One promising way to improve the efficiency as well as to decrease the capital costs of the fuel cell is to recuperate the oxygen from the electrolyzer and use it as the fuel cell oxidant instead of compressed air. This paper presents the modifications made to the system in order to implement oxygen recuperation. The round-trip system efficiency was found to be 18% with oxygen recuperation and 13.5% without it."

Those energy efficiency numbers are horrible compared to Lithium-ion batteries, plus I suspect the capital costs of electrolyzers, fuelcells and storage containers for the hydrogen too be way in excess of inverters and lithium-ion batteries.
Li-on batteries do not last forever, but neither do fuel cells, so there is a weak point on both methods.

Just what Toyota are now doing, by starting to play catch up to other car manufacturers, by heading into battery electric vehicles, when they were the leaders in Hydrogen vehicles, tends to indicate which they think will be cheaper in the long run.

I tried to explain the energy loss to him a while back, his answer is just that so much excess renewable electricity will be produced in the future it will able to be wasted in the hydrogen process.

Not sure how you can come to that conclusion, because renewable projects aren’t free, and they need to generate a return on investment.

 

[sptrawler]

Well there you go, lithium battery storage is here now happening....hydrogen is where???

I agree completely, it will be 20 to 30 years before hydrogen gets traction.

As I said in my earlier post:

Like I said IMO batteries have a place and will be with us forever, at the moment they are the obvious answer for the immediate problem, however IMO large scale energy storage will end up being hydrogen.
As I said time will tell and it is only my humble opinion

 

[moXJO]

I agree completely, it will be 20 to 30 years before hydrogen gets traction.

As I said in my earlier post:

Like I said IMO batteries have a place and will be with us forever, at the moment they are the obvious answer for the immediate problem, however IMO large scale energy storage will end up being hydrogen.
As I said time will tell and it is only my humble opinion

I agree about the current batteries. Expensive, low life, surely heat will be a factor. But they are quick to install for political mileage.

 

[sptrawler]

I tried to explain the energy loss to him a while back, his answer is just that so much excess renewable electricity will be produced in the future it will able to be wasted in the hydrogen process.

Not sure how you can come to that conclusion, because renewable projects aren’t free, and they need to generate a return on investment.

I did post that the S.A Government is installing a hydrogen plant with a 10MW turbine and a 5MW fuel cell at Port Lincoln.
So it is easy to draw that conclusion, when it is a fact, not a conclusion.
So in reality, you appear to be just ignoring anything, you don't agree with.

I will re post a link to the facts.
https://indaily.com.au/news/business/2018/02/12/bigger-lng-sa-get-first-green-hydrogen-plant/

http://ourenergyplan.sa.gov.au/hydrogen

I know you tried to explained the energy loss to me, maybe you should try explaining it to the S.A Government.

 

[SirRumpole]

Solar power: What happens when we start producing more electricity than we can consume?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-07/solar-power-what-happens-when-theres-too-much/9522192

 

[Value Collector]

Solar power: What happens when we start producing more electricity than we can consume?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-07/solar-power-what-happens-when-theres-too-much/9522192

there are a few ways that can help with that.

1, Growing popularity of Home based batteries - means that less Electricity will be fed back to the grid, on a smart grid these could be centrally managed so they didn't start charging till there was an excess in the middle of the day. eg solar feeds into grid in morning and late afternoon when production is lower, but charges batteries at peak solar time.

2, Electric cars - As with home batteries they would absorb solar production, and on a smart grid the power company could control charging of those cars plugged in to off-peak charging to absorb excess loads.

3, Large scale Grid battery storage - to absorb the production that makes it past Home battery and electric vehicle charging.

4, Shifting some of the off peak times to midday.

5, encouraging large businesses and office buildings to install battery packs, and allow them to charge them at off-peak rates during midday.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Apologies if this has been done already.

'World's largest' solar and wind hydrogen plant proposed for regional SA
The Crystal Brook facility will produce up to 400 megawatts of solar and wind power each day, which will power the site's hydrogen 'electrolyser' to potentially produce 20,000 kilograms of hydrogen daily.

The SA Government has said that exporting the hydrogen products created at the plant to markets in Asia was a possibility.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...d-wind-hydrogen-plant-proposed-for-sa/9526706

Wondering where 20 tonnes of hydrogen is going to go if export to Asia is only a "possibility"?

 

[sptrawler]

Apologies if this has been done already.


Wondering where 20 tonnes of hydrogen is going to go if export to Asia is only a "possibility"?

The Crystal Brook hydrogen plant, is the second hydrogen plant S.A has announced.
There won't be any problem finding something to do with 20 tonnes of hydrogen, it could run a gas turbine at the site, when the wind isn't blowing.
The other great thing about hydrogen it has unlimited storage potential, if you don't use it, you just store it until you need it.

 

[Value Collector]

Apologies if this has been done already.


Wondering where 20 tonnes of hydrogen is going to go if export to Asia is only a "possibility"?

I can't see it being shipped to Asia, the energy loss is just to great.

You lose about 60% of the energy just converting the electricity to hydrogen.

Then, you would have to liquify it, which means cooling it to -250 degrees (consuming more energy).

Then the transport ship consumes energy going there and back.

After doing all this you are basically converting 5 units of energy available in SA, to 1 unit of energy for sale in Asia, Seems crazy to me, especially when you could just build the solar and wind farms in Asia, and not have the full 5 units of energy available, rather than just 1 unit.

and all this energy loss to try and export power from a state that has an energy crisis,

 

[Wysiwyg]

and all this energy loss to try and export power from a state that has an energy crisis,

This is a 2006 article but still it would be interesting to know if electrolysis (River Murray source?) is right.

Why a hydrogen economy doesn't make sense
December 11, 2006, Phys.org

In a recent study, fuel cell expert Ulf Bossel explains that a hydrogen economy is a wasteful economy. The large amount of energy required to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds (water, natural gas, biomass), package the light gas by compression or liquefaction, transfer the energy carrier to the user, plus the energy lost when it is converted to useful electricity with fuel cells, leaves around 25% for practical use — an unacceptable value to run an economy in a sustainable future. Only niche applications like submarines and spacecraft might use hydrogen.

“More energy is needed to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds than can ever be recovered from its use,” Bossel explains to PhysOrg.com. “Therefore, making the new chemical energy carrier form natural gas would not make sense, as it would increase the gas consumption and the emission of CO2. Instead, the dwindling fossil fuel reserves must be replaced by energy from renewable sources.”

 

[Value Collector]

This is a 2006 article but still it would be interesting to know if electrolysis (River Murray source?) is right.

Electrolysis is a way to convert electricity into hydrogen, by cracking water molecules, however that process wastes a lot of energy, So the energy you have left over in the hydrogen, is about 60% less than what you had in the electricity to begin with, then if you want to store that hydrogen you have to use more energy to compress it or freeze it, using further energy.

So you have to weigh up whether it makes more sense to just use the electricity in its original form, or whether it makes sense to convert it to hydrogen, if the end result you want is electricity, then its going to make more sense to skip the hydrogen process.

 

[boofhead]

Electrolysis has been improved with various catalysts. One method uses cobalt and tungsten and alternative is something involving nickel. Still more work needs to be done though.

 

[Value Collector]

Electrolysis has been improved with various catalysts. One method uses cobalt and tungsten and alternative is something involving nickel. Still more work needs to be done though.

What is the efficiency of these new methods?

 

[Wysiwyg]

This is a 2006 article but still it would be interesting to know if electrolysis (River Murray source?) is right.

Oh not the Murray, long way from it. Probably desal. or bore water source.

 

[SirRumpole]

The other great thing about hydrogen it has unlimited storage potential, if you don't use it, you just store it until you need it.

It's pretty hard to store.

If you store it as a gas it leaks out, if you store it as a liquid it has o be refrigerated.

It can be stored in metal hydrides, but that's a developing technology.

 

[Wysiwyg]

The Crystal Brook hydrogen plant, is the second hydrogen plant S.A has announced.
There won't be any problem finding something to do with 20 tonnes of hydrogen, it could run a gas turbine at the site, when the wind isn't blowing.
The other great thing about hydrogen it has unlimited storage potential, if you don't use it, you just store it until you need it.

Okay I found the S.A. Hydrogen Road Map. It is the governments plan to run public transport off hydrogen. Rail, bus and governement vehicles.

South Australia can play a role in creating a regional economy where public transport
fleets here and across Asia can refuel using hydrogen imported from centralised
production facilities built in this State. Our own transport fleets will also be able to
refuel using hydrogen created by electrolysis plants powered by our expanding
renewable energy infrastructure.

Asia will make their own hydrogen I would think but I am not university educated soooo.

The South Australian Government, transport and energy industry leaders and our research institutions recognise an emerging opportunity in the coming decade to accelerate this State’s transition to a hydrogen economy so that we can attract the investment required to create a nation-leading hub for the production, use and export of hydrogen.

 

[Wysiwyg]

From CSIRO -

The Australian 1:04PM May 4, 2017

CSIRO on brink of breakthrough in enabling hydrogen fuel cell supplies
CSIRO is developing technology to export Australia’s supply of gas and renewable energy in a form that can power next generation hydrogen fuel cell transport.
Australia’s prime research body says it is developing tech that will solve the problem of transporting hydrogen to bowsers that will refuel cars. The technology will also make it commercially viable to export hydrogen overseas as ammonia (NH3) for use in fuel cells
...

However the commercial viability and safety of transporting hydrogen to bowser points is a sticking point and it’s here where CSIRO has announced a two-year project to make this possible domestically and internationally.