That $20,000 loss is real, that money is gone, the government doesn't refund you any of that loss.
Not all of it, the depreciation schedule is just smoke and mirrors. A house remains livable well beyond the time frames used in the schedule.
But to me they have now formed what looks like a big bubble that followed the demographics and easy credit, and the rush of investors now just might be the last big push. Where will the buyers come from once the mum and dad investors are hocked up to the eyeballs with 90% LVR's?
I think your view of negative gearing is warped. Its not simply to encourage people to build more rental property ( even though it does achieve this aim) the point of it is that it only fair that the government only tax you on your net profit each year.
the government basically owns the rights to 30% of the earnings of every citizen, If one citizen earns $100K in business A, but losses $50K in Business B the government is entitled to 30% of the net profits, it can't be said that he is having his $50K loss subsidised.
As I said before, negative gearing laws apply to all investments.
But also your $60B figure is way off, the $60Billion loss your quoting is only offset a much smaller portion of tax, at the most probably $20B, But the loss of the $60Billion caused others the book profits such as the banks, which they paid tax on which would offset a chunk of the $20B.
What is the use of NG on exisiting assets? It doesn't actually help to improve things. If it encourages new shares to be issued, new companies to be formed, new housing stock to be built, I can see the use, otherwise why have it on exisiting assets and why aren't the losses amortised to the cost base instead of being able to reduce income tax.
The $60B in losses will work out to be less in forgone tax, but it's still a massive level of losses. The most persistent argument by the Real estate industry for retaining NG is in helps to increase the amount of rental proeprties. It clearly doesn't.
The fact is we over invest in property.
1, What is the use of NG on exisiting assets?
2, It doesn't actually help to improve things. If it encourages new shares to be issued, new companies to be formed, new housing stock to be built, I can see the use, otherwise why have it on exisiting assets and why aren't the losses amortised to the cost base instead of being able to reduce income tax.
3, The $60B in losses will work out to be less in forgone tax, but it's still a massive level of losses.
4, The most persistent argument by the Real estate industry for retaining NG is in helps to increase the amount of rental proeprties. It clearly doesn't.
The fact is we over invest in property.
1, It produces a fairer tax system that taxes people based on their net profits each year, Its an understanding that people may have several business ventures so it allows for annual tax to be charged based on the total net profit of all the business ventures combined.
2, because it makes sense to offset negative cash flows against other positive to get to a net bases each year. It's how every single business in Australia works.
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But depreciation is not limited to property, every business offsets a portion of their income through depreciation of their plant and equipment, depreciation is a real thing.
Well if your right all the better for us, we will have some cheap property to add to our portfolios in the future.
But it's also a misconception that property investors are all up to their eyeballs in debt, there certainly are some that are, but everyone of them there is another one that has finished paying off there own home and have bought an investment, another that invests debt free, another that has debt but smashes it with his high income, another that has owned the property so long the debt is pretty small.
People here seem to think that 100% of the property investing community are undercapitalised speculators, this is not the case.
1, If that were the case, losses of a capital nature would be able to offset against income, at present they can only be carried forward against a capital gain.
This is because the investment is seen as speculative.
2, Can't the same be said of an interest only loan against a property, where the purchase was to get capital appreciation.
3,Why should the taxpayer have to pay the speculator the shortfall in their earnings, they took the loan on with the knowledge, it is unlikely to ever be rent possitive.
4, They should only be able to mitigate their losses upto the income they recieve from the investment.
To allow them to claim a tax refund for losses above that, just encourages speculation/gambling losses to be a tax deduction.
1,Depreciation on plant and vehicles makes sense because they do devalue and wear out, and will be on sold at a lower price, or scrapped. Houses are onsold for a higher price, for now anyway. A block of land with a 40 year old house is worth more than a vacant block in the same area, but if you consider the theory of depreciation the land with the house should be cheaper by the cost of demolition, since in theory the house is worthless and it will cost thousands to push it over. It never is. So for houses, depreciation is a rort.
2, The sprukers and the banks encourage investors to max out the borrowings to minimise the tax. That's the marketing pitch.
1, Neg gearing is about offsetting a cashflow loss against a positive cashflow from another sources, it's no different to what happens anywhere else, eg, woolworths would currently be offsetting the losses its making at masters against the profits its making at its other businesses.
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Comparing Wollies tax offset with personal tax offset, is a bit out there.
It works out untill the tax dept rules the investment isn't a bonafide business.
That is why a lot of small businesses are not found to constitute a small business and have their tax claims overturned and penalties applied.
It is very easy for the ATO to decide personal investment property claims, can only be offset to certain amount, unless it is the prime income source of the individual.
1, Houses wear out too, just over a longer period than a car. A 40 year old house would only be worth something if it has been maintained over that 40 years. If you went 40 years without redoing or fixing the roof, repaint, kitchens, bathrooms etc, the house component of the price would be worth almost nothing, the house would probably be bulldozed and so yes vacant land would be worth more if it is in exactly the same spot.
Bottom line is the building component of a property investment does lose money, and it requires constant replenishing over the years to hold its value. some parts such as brick work and the slab will last many decades, others such as carpets, curtains, kitchen and bathroom fittings, paint etc etc wont last 40years, 40years is just an number used to keep it simple.
Offcourse some things take longer, than cars, for example gas pipelines and railway lines are depreciated over 80 - 100 years, but every eventually becomes worthless or at most worth its weight as scrap metal.
I assume the original post was a reference to public housing, that is housing owned by government and made available to (mostly) low income people for them to live in.Why does the government have to build houses for every body? Why would it be cheaper for the government to build houses when they subcontract them out to private construction companies to build them anyways? Why would FHB's suddenly rush in to buy these homes? The prices would sure drop cause the place would resemble a ghetto.
A property investment is a bonafide business.
But look it makes complete sense to me to only tax people or companies on their net profit. Why would it not make sense to do it this way?
People here seem to think that 100% of the property investing community are undercapitalised speculators, this is not the case.
It isn't a business, as much as it is a speculative personal investment.
Now you are being silly and confusing maintenance (painting) with capital outlays. Here's an example. My dad bought his house in 1967 for $19,000. Its 72 years old. He has done no improvements, still has original kitchen etc, even the carpet. We just had it valued and the licensed valuer assigned a depreciated value to the improvements of $22,000. Thats more than what it cost to buy with the land and a heck of a lot more than what it cost to build. If an investor bought it they could start claiming against that. Cash loses are real, but people that object to tax benefits have a fair claim with respect to depreciation, especially when each successive investor gets a new schedule drawn up. Having said that I claimed it when I could, no reason not to take advantage of the system, even if its nonesense.
Anyway some real depreciation is on its way which will eclipse the paper claims.
It isn't a business, as much as it is a speculative personal investment.
Further to my previous post.
A business, is a venture that is expected to return a positive income.
Not a purchase that is expected to return a capital gain.lol
That probably falls under the same umbrella as a painting that you rent out to the museum.
See if you can negative gear that?
They both earn an income, which doesn't cover the carrying costs, why can't I negative gear it.lol
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