The Environment Thread

[SirRumpole]

Starting this off because there doesn't appear to be a general thread regarding environmental issues.

Condamine River set on fire after Greens MP lights bubbling methane gas, blames fracking

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...ling-methane-gas-set-alight-greens-mp/7352578

 

[Wysiwyg]

If the methane gas leaching out from the river bed has just begun then that CSG operation should be shut down immediately. Bloody unacceptable. Any impact should be fined immediately.

 

[Smurf1976]

I don't recall the exact details but a river catching fire in the US sometime circa 1970 was one of the key incidents that saw the rise of the environmental movement generally. Rivers on fire certainly aren't a good look, and any average person can understand that it's not something that ought to be happening.

Methane is also a potent greenhouse gas, far worse than CO2, so setting it on fire is actually a good thing in that regard. Well, it's better than just letting it straight into the atmosphere at least.

Methane leaks from the gas industry are contentious and somewhat uncertain. Suffice to say that some studies suggest that even brown coal might actually be better environmentally than gas once the leaks are taken into account. Gas emits less CO2 certainly, but even a small amount of CH4 (methane) leakage offsets that completely. It's a certainty that leaks are occurring both at the production end and in pipelines, what's uncertain is the quantity but it's definitely not zero.

There's also a safety issue here. Someone's on a boat and the engine backfires, they're having a BBQ or someone lights a cigarette. Boom!

Anyway, thinking outside the box there's an opportunity here. Set it on fire permanently and promote it as a tourist attraction to come and see the river on fire.

 

[SirRumpole]

I don't recall the exact details but a river catching fire in the US sometime circa 1970 was one of the key incidents that saw the rise of the environmental movement generally. Rivers on fire certainly aren't a good look, and any average person can understand that it's not something that ought to be happening.

Methane is also a potent greenhouse gas, far worse than CO2, so setting it on fire is actually a good thing in that regard. Well, it's better than just letting it straight into the atmosphere at least.

Methane leaks from the gas industry are contentious and somewhat uncertain. Suffice to say that some studies suggest that even brown coal might actually be better environmentally than gas once the leaks are taken into account. Gas emits less CO2 certainly, but even a small amount of CH4 (methane) leakage offsets that completely. It's a certainty that leaks are occurring both at the production end and in pipelines, what's uncertain is the quantity but it's definitely not zero.

There's also a safety issue here. Someone's on a boat and the engine backfires, they're having a BBQ or someone lights a cigarette. Boom!

Can you suggest a cause unrelated to CSG industry ?

Decaying vegetation may cause "swamp gas" in still water or marshes, but I don't know if it could happen in flowing rivers. It seems unusual that the appearance of methane coincides with fracking in the area.

 

[luutzu]

Can you suggest a cause unrelated to CSG industry ?

Decaying vegetation may cause "swamp gas" in still water or marshes, but I don't know if it could happen in flowing rivers. It seems unusual that the appearance of methane coincides with fracking in the area.

Soon they'll be able to lit up water from their tap.

Let's hope the drought in Australia won't be so tough that these geniuses will get innovative and buy somewhat-treated sewage water for their fracking - like they're doing in parts of the US.

 

[Smurf1976]

Can you suggest a cause unrelated to CSG industry ?

Could just be a natural seep even if the ultimate source is coal seam gas.

There's plenty of places in the world where (generally small) amounts of oil or gas naturally bubble to the surface. Perhaps the best known in the developed world is the La Brea tar pits in Los Angeles, a natural seep of oil and gas (LA itself sits on an oil field and there's ongoing production in the urban area - plenty of oil wells disguised around LA (and others not disguised)) but that's by no means the only such example.

There's plenty of reports that suggest that even in ancient times there was an awareness of oil and gas seeps. Gas catching fire and oil forming small lakes on the surface. Indeed the presence of those lead to the "discovery" of quite a number of major oil fields in more modern times since if there's something coming to the surface then it's a no brainer to start drilling there.

All that said, if the river wasn't bubbling before and it's bubbling now meanwhile someone has been extracting natural gas nearby then I think a reasonable person would conclude that the gas in the river is most likely a consequence of the gas industry nearby. The onus would certainly seem to be on the gas company to prove otherwise at least in terms of the court of public opinion.

My personal opinion on gas, having looked at all things energy rather a lot over the years, is that I'm not convinced that it's really a better way to generate power than using coal although it does have advantages for direct use (on account of efficiency). It's better in some ways certainly but there are serious doubts about other aspects. That said, it does seem to beat oil - truly horrid stuff once you look at everything that's involved with the extraction, transport, refining and use of it globally.

 

[Smurf1976]

Soon they'll be able to lit up water from their tap.

Consider it a bonus. No need to pay for hot water if you can simply light up the shower and the water gets hot as it comes out. Brilliant idea!

Just need to be careful to stand back to avoid being toasted and also to not burn the house down but they're minor problems really. :

Seriously, sometime in the future people will be wondering why we were so dumb as to mess up the planet. Why, exactly, do we always need to do what's cheapest in the short term (even if it costs more in the long term)?

 

[ghotib]

I don't recall the exact details but a river catching fire in the US sometime circa 1970 was one of the key incidents that saw the rise of the environmental movement generally. Rivers on fire certainly aren't a good look, and any average person can understand that it's not something that ought to be happening.

Just in case this elusive memory is keeping someone else awake...

My first thought was that you were thinking of Love Canal, but when I finally managed to recall the name and look it up I discovered that Love Canal didn't catch fire, it just poisoned a small town https://www.epa.gov/aboutepa/love-canal-tragedy.

That reference led to the story of the Cuyahoga River fire http://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/63#.Vx2sxj9VjV0. Does this sound like the one your were thinking of Smurf? I think I hadn't heard of it before.

 

[McLovin]

There's plenty of places in the world where (generally small) amounts of oil or gas naturally bubble to the surface. Perhaps the best known in the developed world is the La Brea tar pits in Los Angeles, a natural seep of oil and gas (LA itself sits on an oil field and there's ongoing production in the urban area - plenty of oil wells disguised around LA (and others not disguised)) but that's by no means the only such example.

The funny thing about the pump jacks and derricks in LA is they blend in very well with the general ugliness of the place to the point you stop noticing them.

 

[Smurf1976]

That reference led to the story of the Cuyahoga River fire http://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/63#.Vx2sxj9VjV0. Does this sound like the one your were thinking of Smurf?

That's it. One of the "trigger" events that all happened to occur around the same time and which helped give rise to what became environmentalism.

I've always thought it somewhat interesting that environmental thinking emerged in many countries at about the same time. It's not as though we had the sort of communications or even frequency of international travel back then that we have now, but still that thinking did spring up in many places at about the same time.

In Australia the flooding of Lake Pedder (Tas) and construction of Newport D power station (Melbourne metro area) brought about a similar surge in public concern over the environment in the early 1970's which then followed with concern about uranium mines, other dams, sand mining, logging, urban air pollution and so on not too long afterward.

 

[Ijustnewit]

Things are really starting to go rotten in Tasmania , Salmon farms finding it to warm to grow fish the dams and power situation . And now the beef and wool / sheep industry will be lucky to hang on , also crops are now failing as well.
It's no surprise Hobart set to smash April temperature records with 26c days still pumping out day after day and not a drop of rain either. It's incredible that Hobart will have a hotter April that if the same temperatures occurred in any November it would go close to breaking the November records as well . Dam levels are now at 13% and the great news is May is looking just as warm as well .
Some news on the big dry , article from weatherzone below

http://www.weatherzone.com.au/news/...-are-destocking-and-buying-costly-feed/496011

 

[explod]

This is a very good and informative thread, watch it close and thumbs up to you all.

Seem to get bogged down trying to reason with others on that other thread LOL.

We are entering worrying times.

 

[Smurf1976]

Things are really starting to go rotten in Tasmania

They say that every cloud has a silver lining (we've got some clouds on the way and Hydro's ready with the silver iodide....) but I also see real potential here with this burning river caper. :

Thinking about it rationally, we've got a gas supply system on the western shore of Hobart but not on the eastern shore.

So Smurf's grand plan is a pipeline under the river. That brings gas to the eastern shore and enables people to keep warm and cook dinner lest we run out of electricity.

Next step is to "accidentally" poke a few holes along the pipe. Far easier than the hole in Basslink and no need to spend a few months trying to find it since the gas bubbles will be rather obvious. As part of that we get Walshy involved and arrange the holes so as to be artistic in some way.

Then we turn the gas on and send someone out in a small dinghy in the middle of the night armed with a box of matches...

All this ought to fix a few problems all at once really.

1. Supplies gas to the eastern shore.

2. Using gas saves electricity that we're just a tad short on right now with the dams all of 12.8% full as of today.

3. The artistic aspect replaces the lights that Walshy seems rather fond of putting up in the middle of Winter and saves enough power to run a city or two.

4. We can then boast to Victorians that those flare towers outside Crown casino are pretty lame in comparison to our river of fire.

5. With sensible placement of the holes in the gas pipe the flames will provide a useful navigation aid. The fuel tankers in particular will be very careful to make sure they stay on course.

6. In the event that a fuel tanker does go off course it will explode well before it reaches the bridge, thus providing valuable protection for critical transport infrastructure. You can never be too careful with things like that.

7. Heat from the flames will ensure we never have a problem with fog.

8. In Summer the Regatta will be somewhat more exciting with this new feature of the river. Could also add an element of excitement to the wooden boat festival.

9. We can then start running a ferry service across the river with the opportunity to toast marshmallows on the way to work increasing patronage.

10. With proven experience at putting holes in power cables, gas pipes and budgets, that ought to give Tassie a good chance at winning the tender for anything that needs a hole in it. Pipes, tunnels, socks, anything really.

:

Back to more serious environmental matters, something that worries me a bit is that known toxic materials are still not being well handled in many cases. Asbestos, coal tar (especially emulsions) and so on. Cover it up or dump it in the nearest river still happens all too often even in developed countries such as Australia. We know it's silly but we're still doing things like that it seems. Not good.

Having some knowledge of what's at the old rail yards site in Hobart, the potential to get that one wrong concerns me. There's some pretty nasty stuff under there and I can only hope it's dealt with sensibly with the redevelopment.

 

[ghotib]

They say that every cloud has a silver lining (we've got some clouds on the way and Hydro's ready with the silver iodide....) but I also see real potential here with this burning river caper.

And Smurf celebrates his new role as Roving Ambassador for Clean Green Tasmania

Back to more serious environmental matters, something that worries me a bit is that known toxic materials are still not being well handled in many cases. Asbestos, coal tar (especially emulsions) and so on. Cover it up or dump it in the nearest river still happens all too often even in developed countries such as Australia. We know it's silly but we're still doing things like that it seems. Not good.

Having some knowledge of what's at the old rail yards site in Hobart, the potential to get that one wrong concerns me. There's some pretty nasty stuff under there and I can only hope it's dealt with sensibly with the redevelopment.

Sometimes it seems that hope is the only thing left. It's not hard to foresee some painful results of inadequate mine rehabilitation in our future if the current flurry of coal mine selloffs isn't checked.

 

[Smurf1976]

It's not hard to foresee some painful results of inadequate mine rehabilitation in our future if the current flurry of coal mine selloffs isn't checked.

Indeed although at least coal isn't as bad as, say, lead or something like that.

Back to the rail yards site in Hobart, there's no shortage of nasties in the ground there given the length of time it operated and the lack of regard for the environment back in the 1800's.

Just about everyone in Hobart would be familiar with the old gas works site and the coolstore across the road. What most probably don't realise is that the gas works was a lot bigger than the few buildings which remain and that 3 separate gas production plants operated there over the period 1854 - 1978.

First was the horizontal retorts (using coal as feedstock) which ran from 1854 - 1924 and located near where the remaining buildings are and into where part of Davey St now runs.

Second came the vertical retorts (1924 - 1964) and that was right where the cold store is now located.

Third was the naptha cracking plant which ran 1964 - 1978.

The first two plants, which operated for a total of 110 years, produced rather a lot of nasty waste and there's massive contamination of the ground due to that. First there's the coal tar tanks still in place, then there's the various leaks and spillages of coal tar and other things over the years, then there's the leakage of gas itself and suffice to say that the soil under that cold store is incredibly contaminated with gas.

There was a burst water main out in the street a few years ago and it flushed out so much gas from a small area of ground as to pose a hazard. And that was just a water leak under a small section of the footpath out the front. There's going to be a lot more gas trapped in the soil at the rest of the site that's for sure.

Now, as has been found with the abandoned gas pipes, town gas left in situ turns rather nasty after a long enough period. Incidents during roadworks etc have been known to put the workers in hospital and Workplace Standards sees it as a major issue. No prizes for guessing that the same issues are likely to exist with the soil where the works once stood.

The naptha reforming plant was nearby although to my knowledge that didn't make too much of a mess. At least it didn't compared to the previous facilities.

Also at the site are all the things you'd expect to find at a place that's had steam and then diesel trains based there for well over a century. All sorts of oils, asbestos and so on. Plenty of that there.

I'm a little worried that there was a recent public announcement to the effect that they've found the cleanup will cost less than previously thought. Hmm....

 

[SirRumpole]

When I was working for a water authority in the 80's stream water in the Hunter area used to regularly disappear into the underground coal mines.

It was a very sensitive subject at the time as the mines were funding the collection of data from those streams.

 

[SirRumpole]

Fracking debate: Environmentalists question independence of CSIRO researcher

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...vironmentalists-question-independence/7367994

 

[basilio]

Lots of places around the world in extreme drought conditions. Combination of climate change and El Nino. Two extreme situations bear a look.

Indian drought 'affecting 330 million people' after two weak monsoons

Government says quarter of the population suffering, as NGO asks supreme court to order Modi government to do more to help
People from the drought-affected districts of Maharashtra collect water from a tank in Mumbai.

Agence France-Presse in Delhi

Wednesday 20 April 2016 21.07 AEST


About 330 million people are affected by drought in India, the government has said, as the country reels from severe water shortages and desperately poor farmers suffer crop losses.

A senior government lawyer, PS Narasimha, told the supreme court that a quarter of the country’s population, spread across 10 states, had been hit by drought after two consecutive years of weak monsoons.

Narasimha said the government had released funds to affected regions where a crippling shortage of rainfall had forced the rationing of drinking water to some communities.

As summer hits India, reports of families and farmers in remote villages walking long distances to find water after their wells dried up have dominated local media.

Narasimha gave the figures on Tuesday after an NGO filed a petition asking the top court to order Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government to step up relief to the hardest-hit areas.

High temperatures have hit parts of eastern, central and southern India in recent weeks, with scores of deaths reported from heatstroke.

Every year hundreds of people, mainly the poor, die at the height of summer in India, but temperatures have risen earlier than normal, increasing concerns about this year’s toll.

“We had never recorded such high temperatures in these months in more than 100 years,” said PK Mohapatra, the special relief commissioner in Orissa state.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ht-affecting-330-million-people-weak-monsoons

 

[basilio]

In Venezuela a drought has crippled the hydroelectric schemes and the country is on 2 day working weeks.

Venezuela introduces two-day week to deal with energy crisis

27 April 2016
From the section Latin America & Caribbean

Image caption Shops have been operating without electricity for several hours a day because of power cuts introduced this year

Venezuela's government has imposed a two-day working week for public sector workers as a temporary measure to help it overcome a serious energy crisis.

Vice-President Aristobulo Isturiz announced that civil servants should turn up for work only on Mondays and Tuesdays until the crisis was over.

Venezuela is facing a major drought, which has dramatically reduced water levels at its main hydroelectric dam.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-36145184

 

[noco]

When I was working for a water authority in the 80's stream water in the Hunter area used to regularly disappear into the underground coal mines.

It was a very sensitive subject at the time as the mines were funding the collection of data from those streams.

When - I - was - working - on - the- nurses- quarters at the Roma hospital in 1950 for 3 months the smell of gas in the town water was absolutely putrid.....You just did not drink it let alone having to shower under it......Gas has been seeping into the water for years...ask any of the oldies living in Roma and long before fracking.....The Americans drilled one hole on hospital hill in Roma and immediately sealed it off....It was reported at the time they had discovered either oil or gas.

Gas seeps pose no risk to public safety, energy company says

A 2013 report by scientific analysis firm Norwest Corporation outlined several "scenarios" that could be contributing to the bubbling in the river.

These included natural events such as drought and the recharging of aquifers after floods.

Human activity such as CSG operations and water bore drilling were other possible contributing factors.

Professor Damian Barrett, the CSIRO's lead researcher into unconventional gas, has been monitoring the Condamine gas seeps.

"The isotopic signature is telling us it's coming from coal at that point in the landscape but coal is quite close to the surface and there's a naturally existing small fault line, which cuts the river at that point," he said.

He said research over the past 12 months showed the rate of the flow was increasing.

Origin Energy, which operates CSG wells in the district, has also been monitoring the bubbling.

"We're aware of concerns regarding bubbling of the Condamine River, in particular, recent videos demonstrating that this naturally occurring gas is flammable when ignited," a statement from the company said.

"We understand that this can be worrying, however, the seeps pose no risk to the environment, or to public safety, providing people show common sense and act responsibly around them.

"Ongoing research has identified several scenarios that could be contributing to the seeps including the natural geology and faults (formed tens-of-millions of years ago), natural events such as drought and flood cycles as well as some human activity, which includes water bores and coal seam gas operations."


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...ling-methane-gas-set-alight-greens-mp/7352578