The beauty in religion

[So_Cynical]

The claim that the world would be more peaceful without religion has been popularised of late by militant evangelical atheists:

– Richard Dawkins, http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/...s/2007/10/for_good_people_to_go_evil_thi.html

Since when has Richard Dawkins been a militant evangelical atheist. :bs:

I'm actually having a little trouble getting my head around those 3 words

militant evangelical atheists....Is that like an atheist that wont sit quietly in the
corner and let the religions do as they please?

An atheist that actually challenges the religions and wants them to be accountable?

 

[ColB]

Ritual Abuse - The Beauty in Religion

Semela Harris - The Adelaide Advertiser

A mystery which ranks up there with the existence of God is that of why and how the Catholic Church has ended up as an institution notorious for the abuse of young people entrusted to its care.

The Child Abuse Commission this week has released a report finding that behavioural aberrations of priests, nuns and lay people in the Catholic schools and care homes have been 'endemic'. The report encompassed some 35 000 victims over 60 years of life within Irish Church-run institutions. It fond them heavy with sexual abuse of boys and humiliation or girls beatings, scaldings, rape and emotional abuse.

Some of the culprits in this sad piece of Irish Catholic history now live in Australia.

Some of the offending priests were recorded as having gone from one institution to another repeating their offences wherever they went. Moving into schools, education departments rarely were informed of the history and offenders could simply take up work as teachers and keep offending. Their religious raiments and the taking of vows tended to give an impression of integrity.

"When confronted with evidence of sexual abuse, the response of the religious authority was to transfer the offender to another location where, in many instances, he was free to abuse again," said the report.

"The safety of children in general was not a consideration," it added.

To the immense disdain and disappointment of the victims, the irish Catholic Church's response to the litany of horrors in the 3500-page, five volume report, does not include prosecution. Instead, head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Sean Brady, has simply said that he is "profoundly sorry".

While the Irish phenomenon has the world reeling in shock and sadness, it is not surprising to many, particularly the Catholics of Boston, USA where the mighty Cardinal Bernard Law, the most influential bishop in the USA, was undone for his years of trying to prevent such scandels from being aired and harming the church.

The Archdiocese of Boston ended up selling properties and fund-raising desperately to pay the damages claimed by its myriad victims of priestly sexual abuse.

In Australia an organisation called Broken Rites has been devoted to fighting church sexual abuse since 1992. Broken Rites' research showed an uncanny parallel with the latest report from Ireland.

It found that: "too often, sexually-abusive personnel survived in the church while their colleagues and superiors looked the other way. The apathy or negligence of these colleagues and superiors encouraged the offenders to continue offending. The offenders hoped that their religious status would protect them from exposure".

Last year when Pope Benedict visited Australia, victims of sexual abuse by Catholic priests and brothers in Australia called upon him to apologise, he did so, saying "those responsible for these evils must be brought to justice."

Victims nonetheless have been angry that perpetrators have been protected and even given anonymity.

John Walsh, a victim and spokesperson for irish Survivors of Child Abuse, said that the lack of prosecutions of the culprits would have a devastating effect on the victims.

"I would never have opend my wounds if i'd known this was going to be the end result," Mr Walsh said. Broken Rites spokesman Dr Wayne Chamley suggested to the ABC radio yesterday that a Royal Commission would bring "the real figures" to light.

The Australian Christian Lobby disagreed.

Its managing director jim Wallace was quoted as saying that a Royal Commission would be an over-reaction since Australian churches had looked "diligently" at the issue of sexual abuse and he hoped that the long-awaited report "has satisfied the need to get rid of this scourge from religious institutions and schools,"

Foundation professor of Psychiatry at Flinders Medical Centre and Flinders University, Professor Ross Kalucy added that there had yet to be a clear analysis of why there was such a trend for abuse of those in the care of Catholic Institutions. "There may be an element of character in those who have heightened sense of sin and who seek protection in such institutions", he said. "Then again, one could not generalise. What is known is that the phenomenon of abuse in these contexts of religious care is not new. It is hundreds, if not thousands, of years old. What is new is people's willingness to challenge them and a media which will support this."

Source: www.clan.org.au/news_details.php?newsID=88

 

[Duckman#72]

Ritual Abuse - The Beauty in Religion

Semela Harris - The Adelaide Advertiser

Source: www.clan.org.au/news_details.php?newsID=88

Interesting article Col. Thanks. Finally some action is being taken!!

By the way, what a coincidental headline Ritual Abuse - The Beauty in Religion. Exactly the same as the thread title.

Duckman

 

[Julia]

Interesting article Col. Thanks. Finally some action is being taken!!



Duckman

Duckman, what action is being taken?

My understanding of Col's article was the sense of frustration and injustice that the Catholic Church once again says,
" oh goodness, we've very sorry, but we're not going to make known the names of the perpetrators, and we're certainly not going to take action against them in terms of bringing charges."

Doesn't sound like justice or basic attempt at genuine remorsefulness to me.

 

[MS+Tradesim]

About 99% of rapes are committed by men. There's no good in them.

I suppose I can see how that kind of thinking passes for objective debate....in pre-school.

 

[Aargh!]

its hard to see beauty in religion. i see it in humanity. beautiful acts of kindness inspired by men and women, with a religion taking the credit....

.

I second that. Why attribute the better side of humanity to religion? Kindness and giving is within us all not something that can only be obtained from mild to severe brainwashing.

 

[Duckman#72]

Duckman, what action is being taken?

My understanding of Col's article was the sense of frustration and injustice that the Catholic Church once again says,
" oh goodness, we've very sorry, but we're not going to make known the names of the perpetrators, and we're certainly not going to take action against them in terms of bringing charges."

Doesn't sound like justice or basic attempt at genuine remorsefulness to me.

Hi Julia

No I think you may have misunderstood Col's email. He was obviously trying to suggest that ever so slowly but surely the truth is being exposed. Brick by brick, chip by chip the wall is coming down. The world expects more from its religious leaders - they cannot hide anymore.

Just look at the title of the article, "Ritual Abuse - The Beauty in Religion". Why would he be posting it here if that was not what he meant? Wouldn't it be off topic?

Duckman

 

[Julia]

Oh my goodness, Duckman, so now we have to look for subtleties for which to be grateful from the Catholic Church!

Probably I did misunderstand the article. All I can think of is the point I made, i.e. that they know who these sexual predators are, but don't care enough about the victims to name and punish them.

And the Church still tells people what is morally right and wrong!

It's all I can do not to utter profanities.

 

[MS+Tradesim]

I'm not a Catholic and while the cover-up and protection of perpetrators is heinous, to put things in perspective:

The purpose of this special report is to put the recent scandal in the Catholic Church in perspective. It does not seek to exculpate anyone who had anything to do with priestly sexual misconduct, but it does seek to challenge those who continue to treat this issue in isolation. Indeed, to discuss the incidence of sexual abuse committed by Roman Catholic priests without reference to the level of offense found among the clergy of other religions, or to that of other professionals, is grossly unfair.

The issue of child sexual molestation is deserving of serious scholarship. Too often, assumptions have been made that this problem is worse in the Catholic clergy than in other sectors of society. This report does not support this conclusion. Indeed, it shows that family members are the most likely to sexually molest a child. It also shows that the incidence of the sexual abuse of a minor is slightly higher among the Protestant clergy than among the Catholic clergy, and that it is significantly higher among public school teachers than among ministers and priests.

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm

General observations:

It is important to keep one's eye on the forest and not on the trees. Even if, as this report estimates, four percent of priests have sexually abused youths or children, that still leaves about 96% of priests (24 priests out of every 25) who are non-abusive.
A very large percentage of the victims of sexual abuse by priests are 16 or 17 years of age. In some jurisdictions, young persons of this age range can consent to sexual activity. Sexual activity with youth in that age range would be a gross violation of the Church's expectation of priestly chastity. It would be considered by many to be an abuse of trust by a person in authority. However, it might not be considered a criminal act in some areas.
If the report's estimate that 22% of the abuse involves victims under the age of ten, then a case can be made that abuse of young, pre-pubertal, children by priests may be lower than among the general population of males in the U.S.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex20.htm

 

[Duckman#72]

Oh my goodness, Duckman, so now we have to look for subtleties for which to be grateful from the Catholic Church!

Probably I did misunderstand the article. All I can think of is the point I made, i.e. that they know who these sexual predators are, but don't care enough about the victims to name and punish them.

And the Church still tells people what is morally right and wrong!

It's all I can do not to utter profanities.

Stop banging your head Julia. I'm sorry - I know exactly why Col posted the article. I'm just being a smart @&&.

I just think its funny that posters tell "Religious Nuts" to go and take a hike when they try and spread "Religious Propaganda" in threads, yet it's OK for those spreading negative religious messages to post on a thread title "The Beauty in Religion".

I'm not defending the Church, they have dealt with these issues atrociously, however there are any number of associations, schools, states and countries that have treated, AND CONTINUE TO TREAT, other people in a despicable manner - it is not a monopoly for the Catholic Church.

What do all these groups and organisations have in common? Human beings!! Sexual predators have worn the cloak of religion while performing dastardly deeds since time began, it doesn't mean that religion is evil, it just highlights the ability of human beings to take advantage and exploit circumstances.

If Col wants to make a point about the unfairness of the Churches response to the 3500 page report - fine!! But why not just start a new thread and comment on it rather than throw it in a thread that from conception had been obviously created to highlight positive isues relating to religion? Col even changed the title of the article to highlight his position.

I set up a Thread entitled Essendon Supporter Support - I don't expect Carlton supporters to gather in that thread to talk about their teams woes!! Am I asking too much?

Duckman

 

[Tink]

Excellent post and well done Duckman

Never ceases to amaze me with some people....

 

[Sean K]

I'm not a Catholic and while the cover-up and protection of perpetrators is heinous, to put things in perspective:

Doesn't surprise me the church goes to lengths to defend themselves and put things in perspective. Priests and Ministers behaviour ought to be compared to just the average folk before making judgement. Right? Yeah right!

They've just relinquished the moral high ground.

 

[MS+Tradesim]

Doesn't surprise me the church goes to lengths to defend themselves and put things in perspective. Priests and Ministers behaviour ought to be compared to just the average folk before making judgement. Right? Yeah right!

They've just relinquished the moral high ground.

The study was independently undertaken and the incidence of abuse by Catholic clergy is probably lower than that of other professions. I've seen other studies that found similarly.

The cover up and protection of perpetrators is despicable.

What is obvious here is that some people cannot see beyond their prejudices and have a transparent agenda to derail this thread, despite the fact that there is already a thread for those kind of posts.

 

[Sean K]

The study was independently undertaken

Huh?

SEXUAL ABUSE IN SOCIAL CONTEXT:
CATHOLIC CLERGY AND OTHER PROFESSIONALS

Special Report
by
Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights

February 2004


You're right, sorry for commenting off topic. I just couldn't help responding to your post after visiting the link. Hang on ...

Maybe they didn't write it, and I have it mixed up.

 

[gav]

What do all these groups and organisations have in common? Human beings!! Sexual predators have worn the cloak of religion while performing dastardly deeds since time began, it doesn't mean that religion is evil, it just highlights the ability of human beings to take advantage and exploit circumstances.

Exactly. Everyone is quick to jump on blaming religion when it is human beings committing these awful acts. Yet as soon as a religious person does something good (eg. helps others in need), people here are saying it is human beings doing the kind acts and religion is just taking the credit...

Something bad happen = blame religion
Something good happen = its humanity with religion taking the credit

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Doesn't surprise me the church goes to lengths to defend themselves and put things in perspective. Priests and Ministers behaviour ought to be compared to just the average folk before making judgement. Right? Yeah right!

They've just relinquished the moral high ground.

Tell it to them , grasshopper.

gg

 

[Julia]

Stop banging your head Julia. I'm sorry - I know exactly why Col posted the article. I'm just being a smart @&&.

Hi Duckman, it was unfair of me to direct my frustration towards you, who I know to be fair and reasonable. I've calmed down now.

I just think its funny that posters tell "Religious Nuts" to go and take a hike when they try and spread "Religious Propaganda" in threads, yet it's OK for those spreading negative religious messages to post on a thread title "The Beauty in Religion".

OK, my apologies for responding. I just read the post and responded, didn't even consider the meaning of the thread title. Presumably Col posted it with a sense of irony but I suppose it should have gone in one of the other threads.

I'm not defending the Church, they have dealt with these issues atrociously, however there are any number of associations, schools, states and countries that have treated, AND CONTINUE TO TREAT, other people in a despicable manner - it is not a monopoly for the Catholic Church.

What do all these groups and organisations have in common? Human beings!! Sexual predators have worn the cloak of religion while performing dastardly deeds since time began, it doesn't mean that religion is evil, it just highlights the ability of human beings to take advantage and exploit circumstances.

Yes, I understand the point you're making. But there's something particularly unpleasant and amoral about an organisation which preaches morality having its members behave in such a way.

The study was independently undertaken and the incidence of abuse by Catholic clergy is probably lower than that of other professions.

Really? I'd like to see some stats on this.

What is obvious here is that some people cannot see beyond their prejudices and have a transparent agenda to derail this thread, despite the fact that there is already a thread for those kind of posts.

I don't think any such thing is obvious. As I've explained above I didn't even consider the title of the thread when responding to Col's post. Just read through all the "New Posts" and clicked the Reply button.
I have already apologised for my thoughtlessness and gross stupidity.

 

[MS+Tradesim]

Maybe they didn't write it, and I have it mixed up.

That article was written by some Catholic but the main underlying research was undertaken by an external body. The article also collates findings from a number of other relevant studies as cited throughout it.

Specifically, this report was prepared to guide the discussion that will inevitably follow two major studies that will be issued on February 27. One of them, a national study on the extent of sexual abuse of minors by priests since 1950, will be released by John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York City.

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm

Catholic Bishops Reports on Child Sex Abuse
In late February, 2004, the United States Conference of Bishops released two reports on the sexual abuse of minors by Catholic priests and deacons. This site contains links to both reports as well as press releases and videos of the press conference. A Report on the Crisis in the Catholic Church in the United States was prepared by the National Review Board for the Protection of Children and Young People. The Nature and Scope of the Problem of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests and Deacons in the United States is a research study conducted by John Jay College, which also hosts the study report.

http://www.lib.jjay.cuny.edu/links/index.cfm?subid=162
http://www.jjay.cuny.edu/churchstudy/main.asp

 

[Tink]

Thats exactly right Gav

When its good -- its humanity
When its bad -- its religion

Why bother trying to explain anything....

 

[MS+Tradesim]

Really? I'd like to see some stats on this.

Follow up on the sources cited in the article I linked to in post #69. And check with relevant statistics collecting organisations. I did so recently and the popular public perception is not balanced. 100%, there is a grievous breach of trust when it occurs and the cover-ups are disgusting but the situation is not what is painted by the media and lapped up by Joe Public. And I'm not a Catholic and I have nothing to gain by defending them. I just get sick of bigotry.

I don't think any such thing is obvious. As I've explained above I didn't even consider the title of the thread when responding to Col's post. Just read through all the "New Posts" and clicked the Reply button. I have already apologised for my thoughtlessness and gross stupidity.

Actually, I wasn't referring to you Julia. If you must know, I refer primarily to ColB and secondarily to the random pipsqueak brigade who feel the need to insert their 'incisive' comments. The overdone 'apology' kind of negates itself through the sarcasm. Next time just call me a name and be done with it.