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The beauty in religion

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Thanks Knobby I read the article too, it is an amazing story

We will all be at St Patricks this Sunday, the Mary MacKillop Centre is pretty much across the road, and her memorial is on Brunswick St, where she was born.

Then onto the Exhibition Buildings.
 
Flicking through the channels this evening, I came across a '60 Minutes' segment about soon to be Saint Mary McKillop.

Apparently Sophie Delezio's family put Sophie up as a rival contender in the sainthood of Ms McKillop.

Now this little girl has had worse misfortune than any other kid her age I can think of: two horrific accidents, the first involving burns to 80% of her body and where she lost both feet and several fingers.

It ran across the news media for weeks, as did her subsequent accident where she was hit by a car and suffered multiple serious fractures, so we are all well aware of the massive medical interventions (quite appropriately) devoted to young Sophie's recovery.

But it seems the family are attributing her survival to the fact that they prayed to Mary McKillop during Sophie's recovery phase.

Really? Isn't that rather an insult to the intensive medical skills and thousands of taxpayer dollars devoted to this child's medical care?

And if it comes to that, why didn't the miraculous Mary McKillop save little Sophie from not just one but two horrific events in the first place?
 
There is a fine line between medical and spiritual, Julia, as I mentioned in another thread, I had my own experiences in Rome at a young age.

I dont understand the insult question - why would they be insulted?

Mary MacKillop has done alot more than just what has been written the last couple of days in the paper.
 
Tink said:
There is a fine line between medical and spiritual, Julia, as I mentioned in another thread
Click to expand...

What ? Could you expand this (in bold) so it makes some sense? Any sense?
Of course, it could just be the psychological state you hold to be true. That pesky little 'b' word.
 
Tink said:
There is a fine line between medical and spiritual, Julia,
Click to expand...

Tink, there is not a fine line between the medical and the spiritual. There is a very big dividing line. They are quite different things!

I dont understand the insult question - why would they be insulted?
Click to expand...

Really? I am sure you understand the question very well but are choosing to avoid answering it. Why would they not be insulted? It was the brilliance and dedication of the medical teams, Sophie's strong fighting spirit, and the love and support of her family which saved her life! How insulting to dismiss all of that and attribute her recovery to some long dead person.

Mary MacKillop has done alot more than just what has been written the last couple of days in the paper.
Click to expand...

What? People are free to believe any nonsense they like, but that does not make it fact.

You didn't answer Julia's question about why little Sophie was not saved from two horrendous accidents in the first place, because, of course, such questions never get answered.

What we don't know, and what you catholics love to avoid confronting, is how many millions of prayers have been offered up to your saints which have not been answered!
 
All getting very theological here.

Ruby asks why didn't GOD directly save little Sophia from her first 2 horrific accidents. That brings up the whole question free will versus determinism. In religious theology mankind has the power to decide what they will do. God is not supposed to be pulling the strings.

With regard to miracles. When something really, really outrageous occurs in the seemingly spontaneous healing of person the medical profession does sit up and take notice. That was the reference to the Medical journal writing up the second miracle.

And finally there isn't a big gap between the mind and medical science. For example when it comes to curing people little old sugar pills are often far more effective than many of the drugs currently prescribed by drug companies.

It is very hard to consider the idea of a god willing to heal people on the intercession of some long dead person. That is why doctors stick to the facts and simply acknowledged that there have been spectacular recoveries tat seem to break every current medical rule.
 

I didn't say there was a big gap between mind and medical science. On the contrary, I strongly believe in the power of the mind to heal and to bring about seemingly impossible things. I said there was a big gap between spirituality and medical science.
 
basilio said:
And finally there isn't a big gap between the mind and medical science. For example when it comes to curing people little old sugar pills are often far more effective than many of the drugs currently prescribed by drug companies.
Click to expand...
Refenence for this, if possible?
It take it we're not talking about amputies or 1st degree burns.

Btw, I'm not saying the placebo or nocebo effects aren't demonstrable, but measuring how someone actually feels rarther than how they say they feel is pertinent.
 
Tink said:
There is a fine line between medical and spiritual, Julia,
Click to expand...
I try quite hard to be tolerant about religious beliefs, and some posters on ASF - e.g. Sails and Malaachi - make that not too difficult.
But honestly, Tink, when you put up something as obviously nonsensical as this it's pushing credibility too far.
Little Sophie had months of the best medical care Australia could provide, so to suggest her survival was due to some incantations toward a dead nun is, as I earlier suggested, insulting to all those doctors and nurses who cared for the child.

basilio said:
All getting very theological here.
Click to expand...
I don't think there's any such intention, basilio. Rather, just a questioning of attribution for a child's recovery.

Now, I'm entirely ignorant about religious theology, so perhaps you wouldn't mind giving us an explanation of the concept of "free will versus determinism".

There seems to me to be a disconnect here. On the one hand when something bad happens, it's man's freewill that's the cause, but then when something good happens, e.g. a child survives, that's due to the intervention of a dead nun.

I'd really like to understand how this works.

With regard to miracles. When something really, really outrageous occurs in the seemingly spontaneous healing of person the medical profession does sit up and take notice.
Click to expand...
My comment was about Sophie Delezio. I don't see anything at all outrageous or amazing about her recovery. Neither would I see that she experienced 'spontaneous healing'.
There is nothing in her recovery that cannot be explained by the intensive and sustained medical care, plus of course all the support and encouragement she received. No miracle here.

And finally there isn't a big gap between the mind and medical science. For example when it comes to curing people little old sugar pills are often far more effective than many of the drugs currently prescribed by drug companies.
Click to expand...
To be picky, drug companies make drugs. They don't prescribe them.
One of the fundamental factors in any therapy is the belief the patient has in the therapist. So if a doctor in whom the patient believes and trusts prescribes something and says "this will fix the problem", the patient is going to be more disposed to believing they will feel better after taking whatever it is, placebo included.

This theory, however, falls right over if we're talking about e.g. an infection.
(Plenty of other examples, too.) Giving a placebo to cure an infection isn't going to do the job, and all the belief in the world on the patient's part ain't going to make it so.
 
Thanks for understanding what I was saying basilio : )

Julia, well thats the beauty in religion and if thats what Sophie or her mum felt then so be it.

You dont know what she experienced.

As for the doctors being insulted, I thought the best interests of the child is all that matters, and I am sure they are thankful to them too.

Hope they enjoy their trip to Rome : )
 
Do any of the knowledgeable people here know the success rate of Mary McKillop?

ie, how many people Mary McK prayed for for the three 'miracles'?

Is it the same as like someone entering the lotto all their life and eventually winning three times? On a redraw 100 years later?

Or, if someone got struck by lightening more than once perhaps?

Or, Collingwood winning a Grand Final?

 
Interesting topic.

I think that religion is a subjective set of beliefs which is a mere impossibility to embrace from a position of an "outsider" and to convince its validity objectively. Its primary goal is seeing/experiencing from within.

As a wise man once said, "Religion is not primarily a set of beliefs, a collection of prayers or a series of rituals. Religion is first and foremost a way of seeing. It can't change the facts about the world we live in, but it can change the way we see those facts, and that in itself can often make a difference."
 
The beauty of religion:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/18/3040760.htm?section=justin

 

Top post J, what I gets me is why God lets so many children starve the death EVERY DAY, you would have to have some thing wrong with you if you had the power to stop that from happening and you did not, then lets talk about all the kids that still to day get ripped apart from land mines, why would he/she let that happen????????????. I worked most of my life in the poorest country's on earth and saw the things that happen to children every day. If we have a God he/she is one sick person.
 
‘What is a religious mind ... one needs a radical revolution... revolution is synonymous with religion ...
I mean a revolution in consciousness ... so that the mind is capable of seeing what is true... this is the way of religion.
I think the real, the true religious mind does exist, can exist ... one can discover such a mind for oneself ... a mind that has gone beyond to discover what is true, is the true religious mind.
I want to find out, through denial, what is a religious mind ...
I feel that through negation one can find out what is true.
So, we are going to inquire into what the religious mind is through denial ... surely, to find reality, to find God ...
the mind must be alone... a fearless state in which there is no death ... for a mind that is alone there is no death.
It is really extraordinary.
If you have gone into that thing you discover for yourself that there is no such thing as death. Such a mind knows what destruction is ... destruction is creation ... so for the religious mind there is no time ... it is only the religious mind that can be in a state of creation ... in this creation is beauty ...
a religious mind has this beauty which is not the appreciation of nature, the lovely mountains and the roaring stream ... a different beauty with which goes love... you cannot separate beauty and love ... and with them is passion... one cannot go far without passion ... beauty can only be there when there is passion.
The religious mind, being in this state, has a peculiar quality of strength ... so, the religious mind does exist ... it is apart from all human endeavours ... therefore a religious mind can receive that which is not measurable by the brain ... that thing is unnameable ...

to live in this state is the true religious mind’.

j.krishnamurti
 
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