The baby boomers are going to kill us... Budget Deficit is temporary??

[robots]

hello,

try them out Glen48

give them the bleeding heart routine that all the handout crew use

thankyou
robots

 

[bunyip]

It's relative, as what you or we may consider great may be relatively weak compared to other nations. You must be taking this personally if you're trying to defend Australia on these points. Travel, all I will say is that we're one continent, country and culture, and that there is an entire world out there. Nightlife, it pales in comparison to many other countries if you're looking for a long night, party, clubbing etc atmospheres. We do pubs well. Fashion? If you really want to travel the fashion circuts, you wouldn't spend much time in Australia.


If you think travel isn't available to us, it just shows how out of touch with reality you really are. Forget about the isolation of Australia....that doesn't stop us from travelling.
My oldest kids are just out of their teens and have already travelled extensively in Australia as well as to half a dozen countries in Europe and Asia. One of them is planning holidays in both Japan and England this year.

As for nightlife, if you can't have yourself one hell of a good night out by clubbing in Australia then I can only suspect that you have one of those personalities that's about as exciting as watching paint dry.


You still don't get it. I'm not going to get into it in depth, as I'm sure I made sense earlier. All opportunities are limited, whether it is by intelligence, willpower, supply and demand, socio-economic status, or many, many other reasons. Not everyone can own your 15 houses, I'm not going to say why as it should be obvious. Not everyone can save $100 per week or even wants to save $100 per week. Hoarding cash isn't necessarily an opportunity, as it may out-weigh any change in standard of living.

No mate, it's you who doesn't get it. And no, you didn't make sense earlier and you're still not making sense now.
You're saying that opportunities are not available to the majority. I'm saying that opportunities are available to all of us.
If people don't have the inclination or the willpower or the intelligence to manage their money sensibly rather than waste it through reckless spending, if they're so downright stupid that they live for the day and give no thought to their futures, if they could easily save $100 or more each week but prefer to piss it up against the wall by boozing or gambling or eating junk food or whatever, then so be it.
But their irresponsible and stupid attitudes or their lack or ambition or willpower do not change the fact that they have opportunities available to them to do a lot better with their lives.
Even if the don't have the ability to go up the corporate ladder or become the company manager or start their own business or whatever, they still have the opportunity to work, save money and get ahead.


You're concentrating on the individual rather than the big picture. An individual has the opportunity to do as you say, but people as a whole do not, whether it's due to personal limits, human nature, compromise etc.

The big picture is that society is made up of a collection of individuals with opportunities to work, save money, and invest that money in growth assets to increase their personal financial worth, with a corresponding increase in their living standards and the life choices that are available to them. If they can't get a job in their chosen field, then there are ways and means of getting education and skills necessary to get into other fields.
To say that people as a whole do not have opportunities to better themselves in this country is simply incorrect.




This is most people. Opportunities also come in all shapes and sizes, so the opportunities available to one person may be completely different to those available to another. You seem to be quite dismissive or out of touch with human nature and our thought-process at this time.

Yes, different people, different opportunities. But one opportunity is common to all of us.....the opportunity to work, save money, get ahead financially and improve our lives.
Therein lies one of the strengths of the Australian way of life.....the freedom of choice that allows us to pursue our ambitions if we choose.
There are many countries in the world where you just can't do that, either because it's illegal or because the opportunities are almost non-existent.


Commending society? The country we've all helped shape? Free and wonderful lifestyle? The best country? That's all subjective, but if you don't understand that then you're not going to understand most of what I say.

It's not subjective, it's fact. We do have lots of freedom and a good lifestyle in this country, and it is one of the best countries in the world with a high standard of living.
So yes, rather than talking about blame you should be commending society for our collective efforts in creating the country we live in and the lifestyle we enjoy. And if you don't enjoy your lifestyle my friend, then get off your back side and do something about it. And don't moan to me that you don't have the opportunity to do so. Open your eyes and you'll see opportunities all around you, many of which are available to you.


It's difficult only because you can't see beyond your own perspective.

Your perspective, old son, seems to be limited by your misguided thinking that people without ambition, planning or willpower don't have opportunities available to hem.
I say we all have opportunities and it's up to us whether or not we utilise them.
People who never achieve anything because they couldn't be bother putting in a bit of effort, are the very same ones who will complain that they didn't have opportunities.



I haven't been moaning or blaming anyone, at least blame in the way you think of blame.

Yes actually, you have been moaning and blaming all through your posts. I won't bother going into detail.....anyone who reads back through your posts will see it.
I refer you to post No. 73 where Calliope said to you........"You keep harping about blame - blame for what?"
Perhaps you'd care to answer his question.

.........

 

[Calliope]

Bunyip,

I am afraid you are only giving encouragement to Mr J's boring, uninformed and unresearched lectures by taking him seriously. You only have to look at this guy's flood of posts to see that he has the answer to everything.

 

[Julia]

Would the banks give me a temporary loan for 7 yrs?

Certainly. As long as you are happy to sign up for the same level of interest that the Australian tax payer will be paying for the government's borrowings.

 

[Julia]

Re the argument between Mr J on one side and Bunyip and Calliope on the other:
(and I will probably regret not staying out of this!)

I suspect what's happening here is a misinterpretation of expressed views on both sides.

When Mr J asserts that not everyone in Australian society is able to 'make the most of opportunities available", and then Bunyip and Calliope in response assert that (paraphrasing)" then that's their own fault, they are therefore unwilling to work" etc etc, I read into Mr J's comments that there will always be in any society some people who lack the capacity to see and utilise opportunity. Now whether this incapacity is genetically determined, or culturally inculcated I don't know.

But I do know that not everyone has that intrinsic ability to make the most of their lives to the extent most of us here on ASF can.

There will always be people who will need to be 'carried' by their more capable fellow citizens.

Against this suggestion is the thought that by continuing to offer welfare and support to this group, they will never be motivated to change their potential.

And, Mr J., those people who genuinely fail to see and accept their opportunities are in fact supported by the rest of us, along with the sick, disabled, etc.

So doesn't that make Australia a pretty fantastic country?

 

[hw&h]

I second that. They could just increase immigration. hundreds of millions of eager young workers throughout the world eager to take their place and tax burden as they leave the workforce. Over time the government will slowly ramp up the spin so we won't even notice it's happening.

The standard of living here is exceptional. A lot of people would give anything to live here. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I was listening to the ABC radio recently explaining that the "stimulus" package was meant to save Australian jobs. While K. Rudd hands out pay checks with one hand, he is also allowing massive immigration with the other. Don't get me wrong i am not against immigration, however in a time of financial crisis when we are meant to be spending billions of taxpayers money on "saving Australian jobs" we are immigrating people who will have little skills, require government support and almost no desire to work. Have a look at the statistics yourself. Studies by universities show that the workers we have been integrating (on average) have very little skills and require government support -check it out yourself.

The same scenario has been played out in Europe before, and they are seeing the ramifications of it now. Germany, holland and France have been allowing massive amounts of unskilled migrants into the country and they are now leeching off the government and increasing the rate of crime. At a time of financial crisis we need to pull our head out of the sand and look at our own country for the solution. We need to focus on fixing ourselves first so we can then help others. if you can't fend for yourself, how do you expect to support someone else as well?

I think Australians need to stop squabbling over which side of the government is better than the other -they're both bad! we need to realise that the government is made to serve the public, not the public made to serve the government. Countries like United Arab Emirates have NO income tax. Some people may say "yeah sure that's because they have oil" however only 5% of their GDP is due to oil, the reason the country has no income tax is because it is better managed financially.

We need to stop blaming others for this mess and start looking at ourselves. How many of you can truly say that you support yourself financially as well as your fellow countrymen? Most Australians are not financially independent -most of us are worried about whether we have enough jam on our sandwiches. A country's financial situation is based on the individuals within that country, so take some responsibility and educate yourself about YOUR OWN finances.

 

[Mr J]

Calliope, he's not encouraging me at all. My "flood of posts" is due to me having time for discussion. This is apparently a trader/investor forum, and I'm a novice trading full-time. It's reasonable that I will post a lot in order to get feedback and improve my trading.

I certainly don't have the answer to everything. There's far, far more that I don't know than that which I do know. My knowledge isn't even a grain of sand on Seven Mile Beach. I discuss in order to learn more, not to give myself an ego boost.

If you read my posts, you should see that I don't post rubbish, and simply offer a point of view. It's unfortunate you have to make it personal.

If you think travel isn't available to us, it just shows how out of touch with reality you really are. Forget about the isolation of Australia....that doesn't stop us from travelling.

I'm talking about travelling for a living. I never stated travel wasn't available to Australians.

As for nightlife, if you can't have yourself one hell of a good night out by clubbing in Australia then I can only suspect that you have one of those personalities that's about as exciting as watching paint dry.

I suppose you haven't clubbed overseas. Australia's clubbing scene is limited by comparison. I know what Australia has to offer, I've clubbed plenty and worked in a club.

No mate, it's you who doesn't get it. And no, you didn't make sense earlier and you're still not making sense now.
You're saying that opportunities are not available to the majority. I'm saying that opportunities are available to all of us.

I've already stated that your view is correct from a certain perspective. The problem is that you can't look at it from another perspective, and conclude that it must not make any sense. You're turning this personal, so I won't address any of that any longer.

The big picture is that society is made up of a collection of individuals

And that collection becomes an entity in itself.

To say that people as a whole do not have opportunities to better themselves in this country is simply incorrect.

I didn't say that.

It's not subjective, it's fact. We do have lots of freedom and a good lifestyle in this country, and it is one of the best countries in the world with a high standard of living.
So yes, rather than talking about blame you should be commending society for our collective efforts in creating the country we live in and the lifestyle we enjoy. And if you don't enjoy your lifestyle my friend, then get off your back side and do something about it. And don't moan to me that you don't have the opportunity to do so. Open your eyes and you'll see opportunities all around you, many of which are available to you.

It is certainly subjective. We may be relatively free in many ways, but standard of living and what makes a country better than others are subjective. It's just your opinion.

I'm not talking about blame, you are. You keep complaining about other people complaining. What's more is that you're addressing me, despite the fact that I'm not complaining. That suggests you have no idea what I'm saying, or that you're just looking for an argument.

I don't moan about my lack of opportunities. I know what they are and am taking advantage of them. For that issue you are preaching to the choir. I quite enjoy my lifestyle, but being Australian has nothing to do with it.

Your perspective, old son, seems to be limited by your misguided thinking that people without ambition, planning or willpower don't have opportunities available to hem.

It is correct from a perspective. If they are not able to recognise or take advantage of the opportunity, does the opportunity exist? You would say yes, but it's not incorrect to say no. It's like asking if a tree falls and no-one hears it, did it really fall? Yes and no are both correct.

Yes actually, you have been moaning and blaming all through your posts. I won't bother going into detail.....anyone who reads back through your posts will see it.
I refer you to post No. 73 where Calliope said to you........"You keep harping about blame - blame for what?"
Perhaps you'd care to answer his question

I haven't been moaning. I have given my thoughts on blame, but you seemed to have missed the point. In short, my point was that if everyone was to blame, it logically means the baby boomers are to blame, as they are part of everyone. I did play around with a little more, but I was certainly not stating that baby boomers as a generation - and baby boomers alone - are responsible for the mess. There are always too many exceptions to make such an absolute statement.

Re the argument between Mr J on one side and Bunyip and Calliope on the other:
(and I will probably regret not staying out of this!)

I suspect what's happening here is a misinterpretation of expressed views on both sides.

You're right, because I don't disagree with what they're saying. I understand what they're saying, and agree with it from a certain perspective. I'm offering another perspective, which they don't understand. Maybe I'm expressing myself poorly or maybe they just can't see things from this viewpoint.

So doesn't that make Australia a pretty fantastic country?

Yes, but it's also a subjective statement. Those that don't understand that will often not understand what I say, as I express heavily with various perspectives, no absolutes, imagery, I don't spell things out and often require people to connect dots, play with thought etc. As a result, it might seem like I'm swinging back and forth or not making a point, or the point isn't understood. It's just the way I write, and probably requires people to think more like I do. My points are clear to myself, and while I can understand that they may not be clear to others, I can't express myself in a clearer manner, as I'm already clear in my eyes. See, even this paragraph may be confusing.

 

[bunyip]

Bunyip,

I am afraid you are only giving encouragement to Mr J's boring, uninformed and unresearched lectures by taking him seriously. You only have to look at this guy's flood of posts to see that he has the answer to everything.

You're right there Calliope. This character isn't worthy of any more of my time or your's.

 

[bunyip]

Re the argument between Mr J on one side and Bunyip and Calliope on the other:
(and I will probably regret not staying out of this!)

I suspect what's happening here is a misinterpretation of expressed views on both sides.

When Mr J asserts that not everyone in Australian society is able to 'make the most of opportunities available", and then Bunyip and Calliope in response assert that (paraphrasing)" then that's their own fault, they are therefore unwilling to work" etc etc, I read into Mr J's comments that there will always be in any society some people who lack the capacity to see and utilise opportunity. Now whether this incapacity is genetically determined, or culturally inculcated I don't know.

Julia

I fully understand the view that not every opportunity is available to every person. Different people, different opportunities. I may have opportunities that are not available to other people, and they may have opportunities that are not available to me.
I can also understand that some people have more ability than others to fully exploit any given opportunity.
Do I have the opportunity to become the CEO of a big multi-national company? In theory yes, in practice no, because I don't have the training or qualifications that would enable me to climb the corporate ladder.

Where I mainly disagree with Mr J is in his contention that opportunity is not available to people as a whole. That is simply not correct. We all have opportunities, each and every one of us. Each individual has varying degrees of ability to exploit these opportunities, but opportunities still exist nevertheless.
The one opportunity available to all of us is to get an education, get a job, save some of our income, and invest that money in a way that will better us.
For that reason, I'll argue with anyone who makes a blanket statement that opportunity is not available to people as a whole. It most certainly is. Some will use the opportunity better than others, and some won't use it at all. But the opportunity is definitely available.
I believe this opportunity to work, save, and invest is the greatest opportunity of all, particularly when combined with the fact that we live in a free country that encourages people to use this opportunity, and even gives them tax incentives to do so.

 

[Mr J]

You're right there Calliope. This character isn't worthy of any more of my time or your's.

Apparently I am a waste of time for presenting a different opinion other than your own. It is interesting that you're critisising my character, when it is Calliope and yourself that have made personal remarks.

For that reason, I'll argue with anyone who makes a blanket statement that opportunity is not available to people as a whole

The problem is not my statement, but your interpretation of my statement. This stems from believing that there is one correct answer. You're arguing black and white in a grey world. I haven't said you were wrong, just that your view isn't the only way to look at the situation.

Do I have the opportunity to become the CEO of a big multi-national company? In theory yes, in practice no, because I don't have the training or qualifications that would enable me to climb the corporate ladder.

And this is what I'm talking about. Either you can't do what is required due to economic (can't afford education etc), social (don't have the connections etc) or personal limits (not driven etc), or you simply don't want to do it. If the opportunity can't be taken advantage of, then it can be argued that it is not an opportunity at all.

Again, I'll bring back a common example "if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it really fall?". There is more than one correct answer to that question, just as there is more than one way to look at our discussion of opportunity. If you state that the only correct answer is that the tree does fall, then you won't be able to see our discussion from my perspective. If you state that it can be argued that the tree doesn't fall, then I'm just doing a poor job of explaining my perspective.

 

[moXJO]

What are we all arguing about on this thread again??
It seems to have branched off

 

[Calliope]

What are we all arguing about on this thread again??
It seems to have branched off

It got bogged down with Mr J's boring lectures explaining his philosophy of life.
If anyone is interested they they could PM him.

 

[nulla nulla]

If you measure time in "Ice Ages" the Earth is very young and the time it takes to repay the current deficit will pass so fast you won't even notice it.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

I'm a boomer and proud of it.

I've been left, and right and anarchist.

I've had a ball.

But at least we did something.

The present generations and the godbotherers of our generation have spoiled it all.

Nobody is willing to be different now.

Boomers are best, they cared and care, they bludged and worked, and still work.

They made some of the greatest music since Bach and invented some glorious substances and then kicked them.

We've never whinged.

Many of us (not me btw) went to unfashionable wars and were demonised for it.

Many started revolutions, liberated women and produced great literature.

Most of us will plan to stop working after this budget, a product of godbothering economics.

And if that stuffs the financial system, ...tough.

You guys have elected a preaching godbotherer, so live with it. Its your problem now.

gg

 

[moXJO]

If you measure time in "Ice Ages" the Earth is very young and the time it takes to repay the current deficit will pass so fast you won't even notice it.

Perhaps this can replace Kevin07 on a t-shirt
I noticed labor was offloading the blame onto the Libs about the deficit. So much for the end to the blame game we were originally promised.

 

[bunyip]

It got bogged down with Mr J's boring lectures explaining his philosophy of life.
If anyone is interested they they could PM him.

Can't see anyone doing that, Calliope....who'd want more of his boring lectures!

On a different subject.....there's a little town in Central Queensland by the name of Calliope.....did you name yourself after it?

 

[Calliope]

I'm a boomer and proud of it.

I've had a ball.

But at least we did something.

Nobody is willing to be different now.

Boomers are best, they cared and care, they bludged and worked, and still work.

They made some of the greatest music since Bach and invented some glorious substances and then kicked them.


gg

You got that right. My favourite impressions of the young boomers was that the couldn't wait to get out of the parental home. To throw off the shackles and become free spirits. They made no secret for their disdain for everything the "wrinklies" held dear. And they asked for no handouts.

These days you can't separate young people from their mothers with a tyre
lever.

 

[Julia]

Again, I'll bring back a common example "if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it really fall?". There is more than one correct answer to that question, just as there is more than one way to look at our discussion of opportunity. If you state that the only correct answer is that the tree does fall, then you won't be able to see our discussion from my perspective. If you state that it can be argued that the tree doesn't fall, then I'm just doing a poor job of explaining my perspective.

What are we all arguing about on this thread again??
It seems to have branched off

It got bogged down with Mr J's boring lectures explaining his philosophy of life.
If anyone is interested they they could PM him.

Well, Calliope, I for one don't find Mr J's philosophical thoughts boring, and neither do I find your comments boring. It would be a pity to have either of your opinions hidden away in PM's.

Mr J has a different way of expressing what I'd say are suggestions for thought rather than definite conclusions. Isn't that actually quite stimulating and provocative?

Over the time you've been a member of ASF I've found much of what you've offered to be interesting, informed, and often very black and white. Clearly a result of your age and life experience.

Mr J hasn't been around for so long so we don't know him too well yet, but his view of the world in shades of grey is something many would agree with.

Perhaps don't dismiss a different approach too quickly. Difference of thought prevents us from holding opinions which have become entrenched rather than thoughtful.

I'm a boomer and proud of it.

I've been left, and right and anarchist.

I've had a ball.

But at least we did something.

The present generations and the godbotherers of our generation have spoiled it all.

Nobody is willing to be different now.

Boomers are best, they cared and care, they bludged and worked, and still work.

They made some of the greatest music since Bach and invented some glorious substances and then kicked them.

We've never whinged.

Many of us (not me btw) went to unfashionable wars and were demonised for it.

Many started revolutions, liberated women and produced great literature.

Most of us will plan to stop working after this budget, a product of godbothering economics.

And if that stuffs the financial system, ...tough.

You guys have elected a preaching godbotherer, so live with it. Its your problem now.

gg

Hey gg, you've just reminded me of why I'm glad to be a baby boomer.
Fantastic post!

 

[aleckara]

The problem is not that there isn't opportunity - I think the argument here is that really Australia has less opportunity per capita than it once did. The argument that not everyone can have 10 houses is a valid one - the pie isn't getting too much bigger but there are more mouths to feed. To be honest I do see signs of this. The private sector has record debt levels to income, and the government is the only people able to take it on right now (other than the new generation via the FHB).

I don't think this is just going to affect one generation though, although younger generations will live through it much longer. A world with less oil, more debt, and a deteriorated planet to live in. We've done so much in the last 100 years.

 

[Calliope]

Mr J has a different way of expressing what I'd say are suggestions for thought rather than definite conclusions. Isn't that actually quite stimulating and provocative?

No. I find his pretentious posturings to be anything but stimulating and provocative. However I have nothing more to say on this matter. I don't want to discourage a budding philosopher.