Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

TGA - Thorn Group

Does it really matter if earnings grow by 2% or 6% or 10% this year? As a long term holder I am more interested in seeing if they can maintain their strengths (ie. credit control & asset utilisation & free cash flow conversion) as a new phase of their earnings cycle approaches and price deflation starts to bite. In the scheme of things these mean more to me than the profit result this year. If dents start appearing in their armor I would be a lot more likely to sell than in the case of a profit disappointment.

I think speculating on short term profit growth is a waste of time. Cheers. :D

In essence, I agree with you – a lower-than-expected profit for 2013 would not bother me, provided it does not portend the first dent of many in the armour – dents that collectively contribute to lower long-term shareholder wealth, which I do not expect to be the case.

What gets posted into the P&L or Balance Sheet are to a degree flexible, and if generous provisioning, accelerated amortisation and depreciation, expensing rather than capitalising and delayed revenue/profit recognition explain a lower profit for TGA in a year, then investors should see through that. For instance, as TGA switches to more operating leases and fewer finance leases, its accounting treatment will delay revenue/profit recognition, whereas the underlying profitability of revenue-versus-operating leases is the same (according to John Hughes in his May 2012 presentation). Management's decision to amortise the value of NCML's customers over five years, rather than seven, impacted FY 2012's NPAT and EPS, and this holds for the following four years, so the sudden upswing of profit by that amortisation value of about $1.7 million in 2017 will be an accounting corollary, rather than an improvement in the underlying business in 2017.

Looking at recent initiatives, and what similar firms here and abroad do, makes one realise that there are many new minor and major initiatives that TGA can pursue to leverage its existing core strength (collecting repayment streams), and thus continually re-invent itself. I hope management pursues new major initiatives organically, as it did with Cashfirst and Thorn Equipment Finance (TEF), rather than via acquisitions, as was the case with NCML. As a rough rule of thumb, TGA's new initiatives require about three years to get going - loss in Y1, break even in Y2 and profitable in Y3. Accounting treatment can smooth this over a longer time-span by capitalising foundation costs and amortising them later, but TGA tends to expense things as soon as it can.

Minor initiatives could be something like taking on new product lines, adding a new outlet to the distribution network, or importing directly rather than buying from an importer. A major initiative would be getting into a fundamentally new line like cars or caravans (products that are not aimed at the existing Radio Rentals/Rentlo outlet network and customer demographic, and which do not match TEF's product and market profile), or expanding beyond Australia, perhaps via a franchising model. We know that TGA already has plans to expand money-lending beyond the scope of Cashfirst's style and its sub-prime customer demographic. TGA does not even have to be that inventive – it can simply copy what others have advantageously done in both Australia and other countries.

There's a great deal of potential growth left in the 75-year-old gal
 
Well said - I agree. If they continue to maintain a strong balance sheet all of these things will remain possible due to the added flexibility provided by the returns generated by their asset base.
 
Hopefully we will see the stupid techys finally lose interest in this stock so the price will soon be indicative of its true value.

Go back to your mining and IT stocks please.
 
Hopefully we will see the stupid techys finally lose interest in this stock so the price will soon be indicative of its true value.

Go back to your mining and IT stocks please.

What the??????

When the price diverges from the value doesn't that create a opportunity?

How do you know the current price is due to the interest of technical analysis, maybe value investors, hedge funds and ETF's have something to do with it
 
Hopefully we will see the stupid techys finally lose interest in this stock so the price will soon be indicative of its true value.

Go back to your mining and IT stocks please.


Good fundamental representation and commentary there, I am sure that some of the respected and astute fundamental investors on here will proud to have you on their side.
:iamwithst
 
Good fundamental representation and commentary there, I am sure that some of the respected and astute fundamental investors on here will proud to have you on their side.
:iamwithst

How ironic that someone who thinks they can predict the future through patterns on a chart calls someone else stupid.

I think I might start a new "investing" technique called the Cookie Analysis where I eat a fortune cookie and hopefully it will tell me when to buy in and where to put my stop loss on any given stock.
 
I think I might start a new "investing" technique called the Cookie Analysis where I eat a fortune cookie and hopefully it will tell me when to buy in and where to put my stop loss on any given stock.

Why not start with just one constructive comment rather than highlighting your underlying negative attitude/issues on a public forum as you have done with your last 20 useless posting attempts.
You must be a delight to be around :D

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=770228
 
Kulio, I take a fundamental approach to investing but your way off the radar with your posts. Both forms of analysis have their place IMO otherwise why else would they continue to be the two main trains of though in relation to investing today. If only one worked everyone would jump on board.

Anyway thats all i'm going to say.
 
How ironic that someone who thinks they can predict the future through patterns on a chart calls someone else stupid.

I think I might start a new "investing" technique called the Cookie Analysis where I eat a fortune cookie and hopefully it will tell me when to buy in and where to put my stop loss on any given stock.

Mate, the techies and the fundies have actually been managing to get along lately...until you entered.

Keep your posts on topic and stay clear of trolling.

CanOz
 
Mate, the techies and the fundies have actually been managing to get along lately...until you entered.

Keep your posts on topic and stay clear of trolling.

CanOz

What do the TA now think? To my amateur eye, the trading although thin, seems to be more serious (parties offering deals worth a few grand a pop, rather than hundreds of dollars). This could be an illusion, because I have not examined the activity to prove or disprove this "feeling". Buyers seem to want to buy cheap, and sellers seem to be prepared to hold out for what they want. Being a dyed-in-the-wool TA type, when I start cogitating on buying-selling behaviour, I move into an area of unique ignorance.

The half year is now past, so you can be sure that insiders know the exact metrics for H1 ending 30/09/2012.
 
What do the TA now think? To my amateur eye, the trading although thin...

I haven't re-entered, too many opportunities elsewhere but my entry would have been 1.80 with an initial target near 2.00 but a few resistance hurdles to overcome to get there.
I don't really like Wave 5's, they always have obstacles.
Theoretical 'ideal' target still around 2.10, shaded box areas can also be date target areas projected from past behaviour to last pivot.

Just my amateur :2twocents

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Thanks Boggo. On current buy-sell metrics it looks like TGA will struggle to get to $1.92, and then move up at a quicker pace to say $1.95. By that time, the buy-sell dynamic would have changed, and the upward move slowed again as sellers pile in at higher prices, but I suspect in this calendar year the SP will zigzag to the $2.10 that you have mooted. The H1 results (to be reported 20/11/2012) might change the buy-sell dynamic, depending whether it surprises on the upside, downside or not at all. I expect an upside surprise - that is, EPS growth exceeding 6%, plus a positive outlook hinting at moving back to TGA's historical EPS growth trajectory.

I do not know anything about the credibility of stoxline.com, but http://au.stoxline.com/q_au.php?symbol=tga&c=ax has a 6-month target of $2.25. Six months is so far away that I think this SP must spring from a feeling in someones's waters rather than the result of arithmetic, however subjective its underlying metrics are. Your $2.10 seems "fundamentally" sound (19 cents diluted EPS grows by say 10%, and P/E ratio of 10 yields $1.09). There is, of course, nothing fundamentally correct about "fundamental" analysis - it's very subjective). Anyhow, let us see what the 20/11/2012 announcement contains, and how the market reacts.
 
Thanks Boggo. On current buy-sell metrics it looks like TGA will struggle to get to $1.92, and then move up at a quicker pace to say $1.95. By that time, the buy-sell dynamic would have changed, and the upward move slowed again as sellers pile in at higher prices, but I suspect in this calendar year the SP will zigzag to the $2.10 that you have mooted. The H1 results (to be reported 20/11/2012) might change the buy-sell dynamic, depending whether it surprises on the upside, downside or not at all. I expect an upside surprise - that is, EPS growth exceeding 6%, plus a positive outlook hinting at moving back to TGA's historical EPS growth trajectory. . . .

Well, TGA managed to get to $1.955 at COB today (Wed 17/10/20120). As for the buy-sell dynamics, there has been much enthusiasm to acquire TGA this week, so my next 5-cent mark is $2.00. That moves its SP out of what I have called no-brainer territory, which is a pity, because now investors must think. All the traditional FA valuation methodologies come up with target SPs in the $2.00-to-$3.00 range. My view is that TGA is a better than average stock when it comes to performance history (remember the EPS metric of YE 30/03/2007 is better thought of as 5.1 cents than Morningstar's 11.5 cents, because of the massive share tally expansion occasioned by the December 2006 float). I have written endlessly on this topic, and the summation of what I have written can be seen at http://www.jochimaker.com/ (Magnum Opum of PiouPiou). From my perspective, in spite of spending days looking for alternatives, I have not found a stock that trumps TGA, and on this basis I'll be so bold as to venture that for a long-term investor, TGA should enjoy the conventional multipliers that the average ASX stock enjoys, and according to FNArena today, the average ASX-listed stock enjoys a P/E ratio of 13.2 on forward earnings - to quote "On FNArena's calculations (corrected for disruptive, non-representative outliers) the Australian share market is currently trading on a forward looking Price Earnings Ratio of 13.2. This is below the 14.5 average established in the two decades before 2008, but above the 12.5 average established post-GFC."

TGA's forward earnings consensus is 20.5 cents, and 20.5 x 13.2 = $2.705. Being a cautious man, I suggest that the borderline of no-brainer territory is about 80% of that - namely, about $2.15 - not that I would sell at that price. Actually, I think TGA will earn a superior EPS than consensus now holds, but I'll wait for the half-year announcement on 20 November to get a better handle on the EPS for YE 30/03/2012. In the meantime I'll sit on my $370K paper profit on 500,000 units like Scrooge McDuck, while at the same time trying to find something nearly as good to allow me to offload other stocks I hold (in much smaller values), and re-invest in a TGA-quality alternative.

As an aside, I sleep easily at night, in spite of having so much at risk on one stock. The trick is to know such a stock well. J Maynard Keynes, who was a very successful investor - See http://www.maynardkeynes.org/keynes-the-investor.html, wrote “As time goes on, I get more and more convinced that the right method in investment is to put fairly large sums into enterprises which one thinks one knows something about and in the management of which one thoroughly believes. It is a mistake to think that one limits one’s risk by spreading too much between enterprises about which one knows little and has no reason for special confidence… One’s knowledge and experience are definitely limited and there are seldom more than two or three enterprises at any given time in which I personally feel myself entitled to put full confidence.”
 
Thanks Boggo. On current buy-sell metrics it looks like TGA will struggle to get to $1.92, and then move up at a quicker pace to say $1.95. By that time, the buy-sell dynamic would have changed, and the upward move slowed again as sellers pile in at higher prices, but I suspect in this calendar year the SP will zigzag to the $2.10 that you have mooted. The H1 results (to be reported 20/11/2012) might change the buy-sell dynamic, depending whether it surprises on the upside, downside or not at all. I expect an upside surprise - that is, EPS growth exceeding 6%, plus a positive outlook hinting at moving back to TGA's historical EPS growth trajectory. . . .

Well, TGA managed to get to $1.955 at COB today (Wed 17/10/2012). As for the buy-sell dynamics, there has been much enthusiasm to acquire TGA this week, so my next 5-cent mark is $2.00. That moves its SP out of what I have called no-brainer territory, which is a pity, because now investors must think. All the traditional FA valuation methodologies come up with target SPs in the $2.00-to-$3.00 range. My view is that TGA is a better than average stock when it comes to performance history (remember the EPS metric of YE 30/03/2007 is better thought of as 5.1 cents than Morningstar's 11.5 cents, because of the massive share tally expansion occasioned by the December 2006 float). I have written endlessly on this topic, and the summation of what I have written can be seen at http://www.jochimaker.com/ (Magnum Opum of PiouPiou). From my perspective, in spite of spending days looking for alternatives, I have not found a stock that trumps TGA, and on this basis I'll be so bold as to venture that for a long-term investor, TGA should enjoy the conventional multipliers that the average ASX stock enjoys, and according to FNArena today, the average ASX-listed stock enjoys a P/E ratio of 13.2 on forward earnings - to quote "On FNArena's calculations (corrected for disruptive, non-representative outliers) the Australian share market is currently trading on a forward looking Price Earnings Ratio of 13.2. This is below the 14.5 average established in the two decades before 2008, but above the 12.5 average established post-GFC."

TGA's forward earnings consensus is 20.5 cents, and 20.5 x 13.2 = $2.705. Being a cautious man, I suggest that the borderline of no-brainer territory is about 80% of that - namely, about $2.15 - not that I would sell at that price. Actually, I think TGA will earn a superior EPS than consensus now holds, but I'll wait for the half-year announcement on 20 November to get a better handle on the EPS for YE 30/03/2013. In the meantime I'll sit on my $370K paper profit on 500,000 units like Scrooge McDuck, while at the same time trying to find something nearly as good to allow me to offload other stocks I hold (in much smaller values), and re-invest in a TGA-quality alternative.

As an aside, I sleep easily at night, in spite of having so much at risk on one stock. The trick is to know such a stock well. J Maynard Keynes, who was a very successful investor (see http://www.maynardkeynes.org/keynes-the-investor.html) wrote “As time goes on, I get more and more convinced that the right method in investment is to put fairly large sums into enterprises which one thinks one knows something about and in the management of which one thoroughly believes. It is a mistake to think that one limits one’s risk by spreading too much between enterprises about which one knows little and has no reason for special confidence… One’s knowledge and experience are definitely limited and there are seldom more than two or three enterprises at any given time in which I personally feel myself entitled to put full confidence.”
 
As an aside, I sleep easily at night, in spite of having so much at risk on one stock. The trick is to know such a stock well.

Risk comes from not knowing what you're doing. The investor greats, ie Buffet, Soros, they didnt get rich by diversifying.
They picked 'High Probability' trades and hit them with a bazooka.
Ive noticed Pioupiou youve done the same and kudos to you.

All the best with it,
 
Risk comes from not knowing what you're doing. The investor greats, ie Buffet, Soros, they didnt get rich by diversifying.
They picked 'High Probability' trades and hit them with a bazooka.
Ive noticed Pioupiou youve done the same and kudos to you.

All the best with it,

It depends what you mean by diversifying.

I think it is only prudent to spread your risks over a number of stocks. 5 or 6 may be enough but certainly not putting everything into 1 or 2 stocks. Anything unforseen happens and you are a shot duck with only one or two stocks. Besides which you cannot compare small time individual investors like us with people like Buffet. What they have at their disposal and what we have are entirely two different things.
 
Risk comes from not knowing what you're doing. The investor greats, ie Buffet, Soros, they didnt get rich by diversifying.
They picked 'High Probability' trades and hit them with a bazooka.
Ive noticed Pioupiou youve done the same and kudos to you.

All the best with it,

Marcus Padley in his book published a few years ago suggested something on the same lines. The theory is that you put all your eggs in the one basket then watch the basket like a hawk.

But as Intrinsic Value remarked, if you don't have the time to constantly track what happens to the company or companies in which you invest, then by diversifying, you also spread the risk of suffering a "black swan" event when a company you've invested in blows up.
 
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