Suicide and Voluntary Euthanasia

bullmarket said:

You're now sticking your nose in something that doesn't concern you at all because I don't hold you personally responsible for any of the posts.

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On the contrary, if there is slander and defamation on ASF I want to know about it as slander and defamation are both forbidden here. I am unable to review all posts on ASF personally so I must have missed the posts to which you are referring.

You may send the links to me via PM if you wish.

Thanks for the offer Joe but I don't see any need for me to involve you.

I already said I have sent off screen dumps with relevant details to the appropriate people.

cheers

bullmarket

Exsactly what are you blokes talking about. Sounds like you have a strong case of Euthanasia yourselfs, and I didn't think the missary could sound so lame Bullmart. I agree with Blitzed. Perhaps you both should submit your missary to part 2 of this thread, (what does Euthanasia sound like?).

Stocky.....

ABC said:

Woman's death renews euthanasia laws push


There is a new push for voluntary euthanasia to be legalised in South Australia after the assisted suicide of an Adelaide woman in Switzerland.
The 93-year-old retired nurse was suffering from spinal degeneration when she took a lethal dose of drugs at a Zurich clinic.
Independent MP Bob Such plans to introduce a private member's bill to state Parliament to give the terminally ill the right to die.
He says patients should not be forced overseas to seek relief from their suffering.
"I think the fact that someone has to leave their area in which they live to go and fulfil their wishes when they're in that very sad situation I think is most unfortunate," he said.
"I think it highlights the need for change in the law.
"Not only are we, through an inadequate law, imposing pain and suffering on people when it it's not desirable, but we're also compounding the problem by making them consider leaving their home, their family and so on to go and seek what they want overseas."
Voluntary euthanasia campaigner Dr Philip Nitschke says the Adelaide woman is the fourth Australian to resort to such desperate measures.
Dr Nitschke agrees the case highlights the need for voluntary euthanasia to be legalised.
"It's a very difficult ordeal - trying to time it so that they're not so sick that they can't travel yet so sick that they want to die when they get to Zurich is very difficult," he said.
"I think it's a disgusting situation and something which our legislators should address and of course they just move further and further away from this option."

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Wether we like it or not, others outside this forum, find it could be at least convenient.

hey everyone,
I know this thread was a long time ago but I thought that everyone involved in here would be interested in the poll on the Optus home page, See link: http://dsl.optusnet.com.au/?brand=ODSL
Its on the right hand side of the page, you have to vote to see current results.

cheers

From ABC, September 22, 2006
Vanstone maintains stance on voluntary euthanasia

Federal Immigration Minister Amanda Vanstone has spoken out in favour of voluntary euthanasia.
A conference is being held today in Sydney to mark 10 years since the first person legally died under the Northern Territory's euthanasia laws.
Federal legislation later overturned the Northern Territory's right-to-die laws.
Senator Vanstone says she voted against overriding the legislation and she maintains her position, although she says safeguards are needed.
"Well, I think someone who's facing the end of their life should have the choice as to how that proceeds," she said.
"They should certainly be protected from any greedy relatives who are looking at their assets and hoping they hasten the choice."
The man who published a book about one of Australia's highest profile voluntary euthanasia cases has welcomed Senator Vanstone's support for the concept.
John Edge describes the death of Gold Coast woman Nancy Crick in a book released this week.
He says Senator Vanstone's public comments may encourage other politicians to speak out.
"She's a very brave woman, given the fact that the current Government is very much a conservative one as opposed to a liberal, and she's in my view simply supporting what would be considered a liberal view as opposed to a conservative one," he said.

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Not sure if this is the same, but they probably realised that this could free few beds, reduce workload of many people, ease burden on social security and save some medicines.


I was reluctant to post it earlier, but since post was bumped up, decided to take a chance.
- Hope our posts are not going to reincarnate the litigator.

What a load of crock, if you kill yourself are you going to go to jail? Oh yes I can see the pile of stinking corpses in the corner.

No debate necessary, just neck yourself!

Not that simple, there are legal implications if assisted, problem with insurance and general stigma if suicide news comes out.

Euthanasia sounds different to start with.

Hospital Administrator to Patient: Look you are 80, your heart trouble is terminal, you are costing the state and this hospital $1500 a day. We would like you to consider Euthanasia. As a bonus if you agree to it, your family will get the Euthanasia grant of $2000 as part of the government encouragement bonus. You save the state and everyone will be better off!

Patient's nephew: Aunty, it would help my credit card and you know we have a baby on the way, your savings will be a great help.

Patient (who is awfully sick, feeling a bit guilty for wasting public money and not wishing to argue their last days, with doctors and "caring" relatives): But I will be dead!

Adminstator and nephew leave and go to lounge area of hospital.

Hospital Adminstrator to nephew: "Look just sign here giving your acceptance and we will keep working on her, I think she will break; anyway if she become unconscius we can do it then"

Nephew: Thankyou!

From ABC, September 22, 2006. 3:22pm (AEST)
Customs seizes Nitschke's new book

Euthanasia campaigner Philip Nitschke has compared Customs' seizure of his new book with the burning of literature in Germany during the Nazi era.
On Tuesday, 45 copies of The Peaceful Pill Handbook were seized at Brisbane airport. They will now be withheld, pending appeal.
Speaking at a conference in Sydney to mark 10 years since the overturning of Northern Territory's euthanasia laws, Dr Nitschke says the action goes to the heart of the right to free speech.
"The comment that was made was that it's an incitement to suicide, which, of course, we would argue against. There's no incitement in the book," he said.
"We've also been told that unless we take steps to legally appeal the decision, they will be destroyed in 21 days."

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Conflicting messages?

The Nazi's would have found his book useful!

Knobby22 said:

Hospital Administrator to Patient: Look you are 80, your heart trouble is terminal, you are costing the state and this hospital $1500 a day. We would like you to consider Euthanasia. As a bonus if you agree to it, your family will get the Euthanasia grant of $2000 as part of the government encouragement bonus. You save the state and everyone will be better off!

Patient's nephew: Aunty, it would help my credit card and you know we have a baby on the way, your savings will be a great help.

Patient (who is awfully sick, feeling a bit guilty for wasting public money and not wishing to argue their last days, with doctors and "caring" relatives): But I will be dead!

Adminstator and nephew leave and go to lounge area of hospital.

Hospital Adminstrator to nephew: "Look just sign here giving your acceptance and we will keep working on her, I think she will break; anyway if she become unconscius we can do it then"

Nephew: Thankyou!

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Knobby: I appreciate that your post is somewhat tongue in cheek. However, I feel you are minimising a really important issue. You know perfectly well that if the law were to be changed, it would be done with appropriate safeguards, as it briefly existed in the Northern Territory.
To suggest otherwise is simply scaremongering and irresponsible.

Good for Amanda Vanstone for having the fortitude to make a statement against her party's general stand in this matter. Hopefully, it will reignite the debate.

To all of you who make light of the need for a change in the law, I suggest you have never witnessed someone you love go through the physical and emotional agonies of wanting to end a sustained period of extreme pain and suffering, in the sure knowledge that no cure is available and death is inevitable. Shame on anyone wanting to perpetuate this dreadful misery.

Julia

Julia said:

To all of you who make light of the need for a change in the law, I suggest you have never witnessed someone you love go through the physical and emotional agonies of wanting to end a sustained period of extreme pain and suffering, in the sure knowledge that no cure is available and death is inevitable. Shame on anyone wanting to perpetuate this dreadful misery.

Julia

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Spot on Julia !

Regards Bob.

I need to know how to get hold of Dr Philip Nitschke's plans for his suicide machine.
Ive tried googling it, but no luck to the real plans.

Anyone know ?
The information of how to make the machine = for the exit, please.

Bob.

Bobby said:

I need to know how to get hold of Dr Philip Nitschke's plans for his suicide machine. Ive tried googling it, but no luck to the real plans. Anyone know ?

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Bob, If you're serious, (such a sobering post, man), I'd be trying to get a copy "under the radar" of the authorities - still illegal etc - just a thought. Then again - I suppose you could argue freedom of info
Could always contact him via "Exit" http://www.exitinternational.net/director.htm ?

Bob,

2020 has given the address for Philip Nitschke. Have you tried contacting him?

I do know that laws passed a few months ago in Australia (being such a forward thinking, enlightened country) meant he was very restricted in terms of sending information over the internet. Might be best to try to get a phone number for him.

I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to a machine.

I went to one of his meetings a few years ago, and he demonstrated the use of the bag which he says provides a peaceful end. It wouldn't be hard to make.

See PM

Julia

Well Well, there's some interesting comments on who pulls the plug!
NO ONE has mentioned its an act of LOVE to send your loved ones to the otherside.... or am I mistaken?
I for one could send my Mum there GLADLY, ...& I've often said the same to my Sister!
Seeing your loved ones laying there day after day....& rembering the good times they gave you as a child.... & the PROMISE you gave to Dad..... Its VERY BAD let me tell you I for one would hold my hand up for the syringe or pills or whatever!
I swear I'll not wait till I'm in "care" all of you people who condemn helping the elderly or infirm to Gods care ....... just wait till you see your loved ones waiting for DEATH as release its a VERY CRAPPY way to end your life let me tell you! I'M DEFINITELY FOR IT!!!!

jollyfrog said:

Well Well, there's some interesting comments on who pulls the plug!
NO ONE has mentioned its an act of LOVE to send your loved ones to the otherside.... or am I mistaken?
I for one could send my Mum there GLADLY, ...& I've often said the same to my Sister!
Seeing your loved ones laying there day after day....& rembering the good times they gave you as a child.... & the PROMISE you gave to Dad..... Its VERY BAD let me tell you I for one would hold my hand up for the syringe or pills or whatever!
I swear I'll not wait till I'm in "care" all of you people who condemn helping the elderly or infirm to Gods care ....... just wait till you see your loved ones waiting for DEATH as release its a VERY CRAPPY way to end your life let me tell you! I'M DEFINITELY FOR IT!!!!

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Many of us would completely agree with you, jollyfrog. But the reality is that it's just not that easy unless our government agrees to a change in the law.

Philip Nitschke has been incredibly determined and resilient in the face of all the opposition from the right to lifers and our fundamentalist Christian MP's.
He passionately believes that if our lives have become intolerable, we should have the right to seek a humane and peaceful death. Our fearless leaders prefer that we should suffer loss of dignity, and ongoing pain.

Julia

Julia said:

Many of us would completely agree with you, jollyfrog. ... Our fearless leaders prefer that we should suffer loss of dignity, and ongoing pain.

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And the other thing that our fearless leaders would prefer is that no one tells THEM of the miriad ethical decisions made daily (by doctors) which are virtually equivalant to this, but (THANKFULLY) the pollies are not asked to rule on. (bludy hypocrites). "make a decision, don't tell me, and have a nice day !!" (why is it that I'm reminded of George W teeing up to hit a golf ball? )

- or sheesh - sometimes - the incompetence in hospitals where ....
the whole thing becomes a farce - but I wont go there. I'm almost 100% confident that most of us have been there anyway. I could be cruelly sarcastic, and suggest, Jollyfrog, that next time your mother gets a cold, send her to a hospital - they'll probably feed her, despite a "nil by mouth" card above her bed -

or maybe let her die by stroke, when you've been able to keep control of such things in the relative medical backwaters of a suburban home - or

- send her to Bundaberg - they have hundreds of options !

apologies Jollyfrog - I hope you appreciate the fact that I hear every word you said back there

From the point of view of someone working in healthcare and who deals with these issues on an everyday basis I understand a lot of the views that have been put forward (some are very misinformed). From the outset I will say I am against euthanasia in the sense many of you are discussing.

Definitions are important when talking about euthanasia...

- involuntary euthanasia - aiding the death of someone against their wishes. Difficult to argue in favour of this one.
- active voluntary euthanasia - performing an act that brings about a persons death according to their wishes. Probably the most contentious form. However there are important issues related to this which I will discuss later.
- passive voluntary euthanasia - withdrawal of treatment to bring about death according the patients wishes. Essentially you can't make someone do something they don't want you to do.

Essentially every case of human suffering can be dealt with in a humane manner which does not have legal consequences for health practitioners. Involuntary euthanasia is never appropriate and brings concepts such as eugenics into play.

Voluntary euthanasia is ethically and legally straightforward as every person has a right to self-determination. However, the person must be deemed to competent when making such a decision. A competent person understands the risks/benefits, alternatives etc. of their decisions. Any person can refuse treatment. This decision can be made at the time if competent. However, a lot of people aren't competent when these decisions have to be made so the decision can be made prospectively in the form of an Advanced Health Directive (AHD). Every person (no matter what your age) should see their GP about doing one of these. Essentially it means if your mental capacity is somehow impaired that you cannot make decisions for yourself in the future this document will help ensure your wishes are still respected. If the patient does not have an AHD decisions can be made by a power of attorney or guardian. This decision is made in conjunction with the health care team and is made in the best interests of the patient. It should also be consistent with what the patient would have wished if they were competent. It should not be made with the best interests of the substitutive-decision-maker (e.g. POA, carer) a priority.

Passive euthanasia is straightforward and ceasing or withholding therapy at the patients wishes is commonly done.

Active euthanasia does occur (and much more frequently than you would think). Doctors are protected by the Doctrine of double effect. Essentially this is increasing the amount of pain relief to relieve suffering which may as a consequence hasten the onset of death. Doctors are protected because their primary aim was to relieve suffering. Usually in such cases other medications that may sustain life will be withheld which may also bring about a hastening of death. It is difficult to ascertain whether the pain relief or disease process brings about death.

Essentially I think there are very few cases where doctors cannot act in a humane and ethical way. Every attempt should be made to ensure patients do not suffer in the terminal phase of their illness. This involves family, carers, doctors, nurses, psychologists etc. Relieving suffering does not necessarily require death. The pain that people endure is not always physical and there is a large psychological component which in turn worsens physical pain. It is a very scary time for people and worries about being a burden on their families and friends should not be an issue but unfortunately in todays very selfish society often is. Remember that you were probably a burden on someone for the first 16 years of your life (for some people much longer). Make sure you give a little back. Incapacitated people being a burden on society is no argument for euthanasia.

Sorry for the long post. I could keep writing for much longer. In summary, please talk to close ones as to what you want to happen. Nominate someone who you believe will make decisions for you similar to those you would make. Please please please fill out an AHD. If all these things occur and you have a good doctor and close family and friends you should not suffer and your wishes should be respected.

Dink