Storm Financial Group

Garpal Gumnut · 31 July 2009

pilots said:
The banks are not the police for all the wood ducks that get them self in trouble, the banks lend money to ANYONE, it is up to the borrower to pay it back its not the banks job to police this.

And it is up to so called financial advisers like Storm to keep wood ducks safe from flack from lenders like the banks.

SICAG the wood ducks support group seem unable or unwilling to accept the responsibility of Storm Advisers and Directors in this debacle.

They are more interested in having money spiders and disclaimers about Manny Cassimatis on their site, than exploring the issues facing Storm victims.

gg

bunyip · 31 July 2009

Not in my wildest imagination would I ever claim the banks are squeaky clean - I dislike them intensely and I'd be very surprised if they're entirely blameless in the Storm debacle.
But the bulk of the blame is with the incompetent and unscrupulous Cassamatis and the unscrupulous salesmen/women who worked for Storm.

Even with all the bad advice and ridiculous levels of gearing, most Storm clients would have been OK if Cassamatis had taken the precaution of moving them to cash well before the market fell so far that their positions were beyond salvation.

It's not as if the market folded overnight as it did in the 1987 crash. This time it went down in a relatively sedate manner. Cassamatis was well aware of what was happening and he had plenty of time to take defensive action on behalf of his clients.
He has no excuses....apart from the lies he's invented.

Garpal Gumnut · 31 July 2009

bunyip said:
Not in my wildest imagination would I ever claim the banks are squeaky clean - I dislike them intensely and I'd be very surprised if they're entirely blameless in the Storm debacle.
But the bulk of the blame is with the incompetent and unscrupulous Cassamatis and the unscrupulous salesmen/women who worked for Storm.

Even with all the bad advice and ridiculous levels of gearing, most Storm clients would have been OK if Cassamatis had taken the precaution of moving them to cash well before the market fell so far that their positions were beyond salvation.

It's not as if the market folded overnight as it did in the 1987 crash. This time it went down in a relatively sedate manner. Cassamatis was well aware of what was happening and he had plenty of time to take defensive action on behalf of his clients.
He has no excuses....apart from the lies he's invented.

Mate , tell that to Moneyspidercentral.

sicag.info

They live in a parallel universe, where Manny is innocent until proven guilty, and the banks are guilty until proven innocent.

This is always a dangerous tactic in law.

gg

Steve Borden · 31 July 2009

pilots said:
The banks are not the police for all the wood ducks that get them self in trouble, the banks lend money to ANYONE, it is up to the borrower to pay it back its not the banks job to police this.

So your premise is that the customer says they earn this much and the Bank accepts it as long as there is enough security to cover the debt? Even for prime, full-doc loans?

Banks have a duty of care to ensure they deal with loan applications diligently and prudently when assessing a client's capacity to repay, that is why they are treated differently to pawn brokers.

It's fair to say that all lenders will write some bad loans over time, if they don't they are not doing their job properly but to write upwards of 1000 (as is the case with the CBA) with the same characteristics points to a failure of systems, policy and perhaps ethics.

Ralph Norris has acknowledged as much, the BoQ is yet to own up to that reality.

pilots · 31 July 2009

Steve Borden said:
So your premise is that the customer says they earn this much and the Bank accepts it as long as there is enough security to cover the debt? Even for prime, full-doc loans?

Banks have a duty of care to ensure they deal with loan applications diligently and prudently when assessing a client's capacity to repay, that is why they are treated differently to pawn brokers.

It's fair to say that all lenders will write some bad loans over time, if they don't they are not doing their job properly but to write upwards of 1000 (as is the case with the CBA) with the same characteristics points to a failure of systems, policy and perhaps ethics.

Ralph Norris has acknowledged as much, the BoQ is yet to own up to that reality.

The banks went on the paper work that was given to them, if that paper work was wrong, is that the banks fault???. Now what you should be going after is the ones who handed in that paper work that was so wrong. I don't blame the banks or storm, I blame the sales people, and the wood ducks that was to thick to see it coming.

Steve Borden · 31 July 2009

pilots said:
The banks went on the paper work that was given to them, if that paper work was wrong, is that the banks fault???. Now what you should be going after is the ones who handed in that paper work that was so wrong. I don't blame the banks or storm, I blame the sales people, and the wood ducks that was to thick to see it coming.

So you don't blame Storm now?

In the main for parties not employed the Banks used their own figures to come up with an income figure, the CBA mostly used Investment - Margin Loan x between 5 - 8% or the deeming rate. Sometimes they did Investment x 5 - 8% - Margin loan x 8%. Don't know how BoQ came up with their figures but the terms plucked, rear and end are involved.

The core problem with the loans was that the clien'ts did not provide the figures the Bank used, Storm and the Bank came up with an arbitrary figure that did not and has never had a basis in fact.

Should the clients of Storm trusted Storm, the salespeople or the Banks, clearly not. Do all parties share blame, of course but to suggest the Bank's are faultless is a nonsense and not supported by the ample facts.

Julia · 31 July 2009

pilots said:
So Julia who's fault is that? if I ask the bank for one hell of a lot of money, it should be up to me to be able to pay it back, now if I cant do that, then the bank has Evey right to close me down. The banks are no different to a hock shop, if you don't pay the loan back they sell your goods, and thats how it should be.

Ferret said:
Probably right, but at the risk of sounding very pro-banks, these checks should be to protect the banks and their shareholders. The checks may provide protection for the borrower against themselves, but this is not the reason for them.

People have to take responsibility for borrowing money. The banks shouldn't have to shoulder this responsibility because they are the lenders.

The point Ferret has made is what I had in mind. It seems unusual to me that several Stormers had loans from banks not in their own area, despite a branch of the same bank existing there. It's in the banks' interests to ensure the documentation offered to them is correct. Hardly a major job to have some clerk contact the client and confirm.

In no way at all am I condoning anyone not taking responsibility for the amount they borrow.

Pindibog said:
The banks are a 'party to the offence'. they enabled Storm's flawed model to run. They are just as much to blame.

No, they are not. It is not the responsibility of the banks to supervise financial advice from a private company.

Steve Borden said:
So your premise is that the customer says they earn this much and the Bank accepts it as long as there is enough security to cover the debt? Even for prime, full-doc loans?

Banks have a duty of care to ensure they deal with loan applications diligently and prudently when assessing a client's capacity to repay, that is why they are treated differently to pawn brokers.

It's fair to say that all lenders will write some bad loans over time, if they don't they are not doing their job properly but to write upwards of 1000 (as is the case with the CBA) with the same characteristics points to a failure of systems, policy and perhaps ethics.

Ralph Norris has acknowledged as much, the BoQ is yet to own up to that reality.

Exactly. I just don't believe any of us are really in a position to make categorical assertions about the culpability of the banks until more information is made public.

Ironhalo · 31 July 2009

Julia said:
Exactly. I just don't believe any of us are really in a position to make categorical assertions about the culpability of the banks until more information is made public.

As much as I blame Storm for the majority of my family member's woes, the fact that the CBA has just offered my mother a six-figure sum to 'not sue' is a pretty clear indication that they are in some way culpable. My mother just got her loan documents back from CBA (after much reluctance from teh bank), and they have whole sections 'nikko-ed' out in thick black ink for no apparent reason. The thing is, my mother didn't have loans even approaching the level of gearing that some people had, so one can only wonder what sort of fictitious info is on some of their paperwork. Who put in the false figures we wonder? Storm? The CBA trying to validate their own lending?

So while Storm and the individuals are to blame, the banks aren't squeaky clean either. And if I was a shareholder in CBA/BoQ, I would be livid.

I just don't buy the SICAG line that the banks are 100% guilty, I think it's more like 50-50%, not taking into account people that should have known better.

Garpal Gumnut · 31 July 2009

I guess some people will be doing time for all these shenanigans.

One can only guess at the sentences. I came across this article tonight on a scam that defrauded many older unsophisticated investors.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25862889-29277,00.html

Robert Ewen Day, 65, will be one of Victoria's oldest prisoners after being jailed on Friday for 11 years over the eight-year fraud.

The deception took place between 1996 and 2004 while Day operated Grove Conveyancing Services, which had offices in Geelong and Werribee.

Sentencing him in Geelong, Victorian Supreme Court Justice Jack Forrest said Day's actions of deliberate dishonesty caused heartache and misery to many of his friends and clients.

"Some have been utterly devastated by your actions,'' he said.

"Others not so drastically affected have, nevertheless, suffered significant degrees of anxiety and stress.

gg

Solly · 31 July 2009

Solly · 31 July 2009

"The parliamentary inquiry into the collapse of Storm Financial may be forced to subpoena the Townsville-based company's founder, Emmanuel Cassimatis."

Inquiry chairman Bernie Ripoll says;

"I must say I am disappointed that Emmanuel Cassimatis has decided not to put in a submission or, in his words, postpone a submission because there's a current inquiry going on through ASIC."

As Anastasia linked before from the ABC;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/31/2641851.htm?site=northqld

Garpal Gumnut · 31 July 2009

Solly said:
"The parliamentary inquiry into the collapse of Storm Financial may be forced to subpoena the Townsville-based company's founder, Emmanuel Cassimatis."

Inquiry chairman Bernie Ripoll says;

"I must say I am disappointed that Emmanuel Cassimatis has decided not to put in a submission or, in his words, postpone a submission because there's a current inquiry going on through ASIC."

As Anastasia linked before from the ABC;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/31/2641851.htm?site=northqld

Good old Bernie, this does make me feel that in spite of Moneyspidercentral, the Inquiry will delve deep and surgically into the corpse of Storm Financial.

gg

Anastasia · 31 July 2009

Am I the only one that finds this incredible/unbelievable considering what all that is presently happening. http://www.brokernews.com.au/contents/news/new-industry-role-for-boqs-liddy/36208

The head of the Commonwealth Bank and chairman of the ABA (Australian Banking Association) Ralph Norris welcomes the appointment of David Liddy (head of the Bank of Queensland) as deputy chairman of the ABA who will have an important role in the industry discussions on regulation.

Julia · 31 July 2009

Thanks for further links to submissions, Solly. There is undoubtedly the same theme running through all of these which makes it clear Storm had just the one model for everyone and no plan for a market downturn.

I'm still blown away by the level of borrowing by some of the clients.

Garpal Gumnut · 31 July 2009

Julia said:
Thanks for further links to submissions, Solly. There is undoubtedly the same theme running through all of these which makes it clear Storm had just the one model for everyone and no plan for a market downturn.

I'm still blown away by the level of borrowing by some of the clients.

Agree Julia, it is amazing.

I still cannot understand how Moneyspidercentral are going so easy on Storm and Manny.

gg

chrisgee · 1 August 2009

theres a lot to read again this week-i tried to read the submissions the stories are all too familar-gee mr c may be forced to front the enquiry that will be good to see- i wonder what gems we will hear from him- i see mr gg thinks that some people may end up in the big house-yes that would be good if theres been any criminal stuff going on -if they are guilty i hope they end up doin time and end up locked up with a cosy big hairy boyfriend for a few years-that will sort them out- i hope there is a light at the end of the tunnell soon-i know i cant comment on things and offers being made but i really hope everybody at least gets there house back-everybody joined this mob hoping that it would make things easier and better for themselves and families when you dont know much about money stuff- youd reckon you could trust the banks and finance people who say they can help you out. the big lesson out of all of this is not to trust any bugger in anything until you understand it yourself- books librarys and the net are easy cheap ways to learn a lot-and when you need help start asking bloody questions and dont stop until you are happy with the answers-it saves a lot of pain-end of my rant!

Solly · 1 August 2009

chrisgee said:
theres a lot to read again this week-i tried to read the submissions the stories are all too familar-gee mr c may be forced to front the enquiry that will be good to see- i wonder what gems we will hear from him- i see mr gg thinks that some people may end up in the big house-yes that would be good if theres been any criminal stuff going on -if they are guilty i hope they end up doin time and end up locked up with a cosy big hairy boyfriend for a few years-that will sort them out- i hope there is a light at the end of the tunnell soon-i know i cant comment on things and offers being made but i really hope everybody at least gets there house back-everybody joined this mob hoping that it would make things easier and better for themselves and families when you dont know much about money stuff- youd reckon you could trust the banks and finance people who say they can help you out. the big lesson out of all of this is not to trust any bugger in anything until you understand it yourself- books librarys and the net are easy cheap ways to learn a lot-and when you need help start asking bloody questions and dont stop until you are happy with the answers-it saves a lot of pain-end of my rant!

chrisgee, keep questioning everything, never sign up to anything you don't fully understand. I hope you get your house back but you may get even more. A determination under Section 50 of the ASIC Act may even be considered.

It's a rough time for Stormers, I again had a lunchtime chat with one. It's not pleasant to hear the anguish, to see the stress and observe the pain. For Stormers there is no magic wand, no miracle elixir but never give up in seeking a remedy to your situation.

Dig in, stand firm and take whatever action it takes to better your predicament. Never fold, give in or accept an outcome that is less than what you deserve. :ninja:

Garpal Gumnut · 1 August 2009

chrisgee said:
theres a lot to read again this week-i tried to read the submissions the stories are all too familar-gee mr c may be forced to front the enquiry that will be good to see- i wonder what gems we will hear from him- i see mr gg thinks that some people may end up in the big house-yes that would be good if theres been any criminal stuff going on -if they are guilty i hope they end up doin time and end up locked up with a cosy big hairy boyfriend for a few years-that will sort them out- i hope there is a light at the end of the tunnell soon-i know i cant comment on things and offers being made but i really hope everybody at least gets there house back-everybody joined this mob hoping that it would make things easier and better for themselves and families when you dont know much about money stuff- youd reckon you could trust the banks and finance people who say they can help you out. the big lesson out of all of this is not to trust any bugger in anything until you understand it yourself- books librarys and the net are easy cheap ways to learn a lot-and when you need help start asking bloody questions and dont stop until you are happy with the answers-it saves a lot of pain-end of my rant!

Solly said:
chrisgee, keep questioning everything, never sign up to anything you don't fully understand. I hope you get your house back but you may get even more. A determination under Section 50 of the ASIC Act may even be considered.

It's a rough time for Stormers, I again had a lunchtime chat with one. It's not pleasant to hear the anguish, to see the stress and observe the pain. For Stormers there is no magic wand, no miracle elixir but never give up in seeking a remedy to your situation.

Dig in, stand firm and take whatever action it takes to better your predicament. Never fold, give in or accept an outcome that is less than what you deserve.

I'd agree with Solly, chrisgee.

Hang in there mate. Most folk at ASF were waiting for this to happen ( to some Financial Advice mob ) and we will back you with advice and support in your fight against Storm and the Banks.

gg

Monario · 3 August 2009

Trevor_S said:
Indeed but the entire reason you go to School/Uni is to get an education, to go on to get a job. The main reason you get a job is to earn money. You then spend you whole life working to earn money. I would expect EVERYONE to want to spend a modicum amount of time understanding something they invest 50+ years of their life working towards ie earning money. I can't know everything but that's why I never bothered to learn how to lay a concrete slab, or work a chainsaw, or weld, or fix a car. I didn't spend my entire life working towards having one. If the Car craps itself, I will catch a taxi or ride a pushbike, inconvenient but no big deal. Some smooth talker cons me out of all my money through self imposed naivety, it's much more then an inconvenience. I am sure I fall in about the middle of the IQ bell curve, so you don't need to be the sharpest tool in the shed to work that out.

Perhaps we should be teaching more on the subject of money in school then? I wonder why such little practicle knoweldge of it is given in the school years, that is without taking it as an elective!!! perhaps economics should be core over sports?

Monario · 3 August 2009

As time goes by on this thread, I realise that the majority of posters, are Ill informed, and instead of feeling anger towards the comments made by some un-sympathetic fools, I now take a laugh at how ignorrant they are!!!!

For those people here is some more info on the great banks that you support, to tear apart and tell me how stupid we were to invest in this manner!!

Colonial, run by CBA closed/sold out several cash investments made when the market was up, at the bottom of the market, these investments had neither margin or mortgage attached.. And these investments were large sums...

So than, why would a Bank close out these cash investments, when the owners were happy to leave them sit a grow over time? BECAUSE THE BANKS had there heads so far up there own A@#'s they had no idea what was going on with storm investors!!!!

I dont think you will find one storm investor that lays blame soley on the banks, and takes none themselves, but what you will find all of them want, is some others, i.e. the Banks to stand up and say, Sorry we screwed up too!!!

Monza!!!!

Storm Financial Group

Garpal Gumnut

Ross Island Hotel

bunyip

Garpal Gumnut

Ross Island Hotel

Steve Borden

pilots

Steve Borden

Julia

In Memoriam

Ironhalo

Garpal Gumnut

Ross Island Hotel

Solly

Solly

Garpal Gumnut

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Anastasia

Julia

In Memoriam

Garpal Gumnut

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chrisgee

Solly

Garpal Gumnut

Ross Island Hotel

Monario

Monario

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