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SIG - Sigma Healthcare

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I just read that even after revealing the partial collapse of the business, and consequent loss of credibility and s/h value, nobody is resigning.

Is there a process whereby a group of shareholders can force a 'vote of confidence?'

Better yet, is there a way to actually 'sack' a board and/or its chairman?
 
bandicoot said:
I just read that even after revealing the partial collapse of the business, and consequent loss of credibility and s/h value, nobody is resigning.

Is there a process whereby a group of shareholders can force a 'vote of confidence?'

Better yet, is there a way to actually 'sack' a board and/or its chairman?
Click to expand...

This is almost like a re-run of the Allco buying Rubicon story. Allco paid far too much for Rubicon and now the media and the liquidator and ASIC is questioning the transaction. The lost of confidence is a BIG issue and it will take a long time for the sp to recover, in the meantime the long suffering shareholders have to bear the whole burden while those responsible for the disaster still enjoy the high life. What justice?
 
vincent191 said:
The lost of confidence is a BIG issue and it will take a long time for the sp to recover, in the meantime the long suffering shareholders have to bear the whole burden while those responsible for the disaster still enjoy the high life. What justice?
Click to expand...

Agreed, hence the question.

IMO, the board and chairman need to go; it's not about 'punishment' it's about confidence (restoring it). This is our company after all, not theirs.

What concerns me is that by the time it becomes obvious to everyone that the status quo can't continue, it may be too late for shareholders to recover value.


No such thing as a 'passive shareholder,' post GFC
The usual approach of shareholders in this situation (myself included) is to simply sell up and move on, but what happens when company after company collapses under similar circumstances? When ASIC, ASX, and auditors are unable to keep up? What do investors do then? Why buy into yet another accident waiting to happen?

Board has not told all
I strongly suspect that the board has only revealed their failure to the extant that they must. Am I just cynical, or do others share this 'gut feeling'?

Their description of the mismanagement of our assets, as well as their comments regarding future prospects suggest (to me) a bad outcome if new leadership is not hired soon.

Reading between the lines, I believe the current plan is to stagger on another couple of years, hoping to stay one step ahead of creditors, until 'something' positive happens. But this approach only works when credit is 'easy' and investors are lazy/gullible. As for 'asset sales..' that sounds fine, but I don't think these are the people to get the best price.

I hope other shareholders will respond to this. Sigma is a great company, and I believe prompt effort by shareholders will be well rewarded.
 
big gutless institution holders.. I feel angry for SIP holder :banghead:

If I was a fund manager and has a large stake in any company. (hope one day I will)

If I don't like what they doing I will express my anger and let it be known
you are wasting shareholder money and if they don't smarten up I call the vote to kick them out...

What a big jokes these fund managers, waste of space they don't deserve to be the champion of your cash...

any decent fund managers would have express their anger months back when they go on an "undisciplined in pursue of more" course... I would
and I lecture them how to properly allocate capital :D
 
the company claims that the loss is due to impairment to goodwill, while sales have gone up. I havent really looked at their spreadsheet, but its quite obvious that the managment is hiding something bigger. someone needs to be sacked.
 
bandicoot said:
Agreed, hence the question.

IMO, the board and chairman need to go; it's not about 'punishment' it's about confidence (restoring it). This is our company after all, not theirs.

What concerns me is that by the time it becomes obvious to everyone that the status quo can't continue, it may be too late for shareholders to recover value.


No such thing as a 'passive shareholder,' post GFC
The usual approach of shareholders in this situation (myself included) is to simply sell up and move on, but what happens when company after company collapses under similar circumstances? When ASIC, ASX, and auditors are unable to keep up? What do investors do then? Why buy into yet another accident waiting to happen?

Board has not told all
I strongly suspect that the board has only revealed their failure to the extant that they must. Am I just cynical, or do others share this 'gut feeling'?

Their description of the mismanagement of our assets, as well as their comments regarding future prospects suggest (to me) a bad outcome if new leadership is not hired soon.

Reading between the lines, I believe the current plan is to stagger on another couple of years, hoping to stay one step ahead of creditors, until 'something' positive happens. But this approach only works when credit is 'easy' and investors are lazy/gullible. As for 'asset sales..' that sounds fine, but I don't think these are the people to get the best price.

I hope other shareholders will respond to this. Sigma is a great company, and I believe prompt effort by shareholders will be well rewarded.
Click to expand...


you are absolutely right on this one, I was given a small number of SIP shares, so it didnt hurt as much, but i would sell before thier next audited report comes out. at the moment just see what happens in the short term.
 
lzen5 said:
the company claims that the loss is due to impairment to goodwill, while sales have gone up. I havent really looked at their spreadsheet, but its quite obvious that the managment is hiding something bigger. someone needs to be sacked.
Click to expand...

In my vocabulory "impairment to goodwill" means you paid for something that was suppose to be good and valuable but it turned out to be "sh#t". We are talking about hundreds of millions paid for Bristol.

I cannot post here what I think is happening but read up on Allco and their acquisition of Rubicon in recent newspaper articles and form your own opinion.

Anyway....I have no patience for Directors who are paid a small king's ransom and show such inpairment in their judgement. I share ROE's opinion that the big institutions are gutless wonders.

If the current board can so easily fall into this current mess what confidence is there that they can stagger their way out of it. My current sentiment is the board cannot even find their way out of a paperbag!!!!

Unfortunately nearly all of my money is gone....and no use crying over spilled milk. Hopefully, the sp can recover a little bit more and I am cutting my losses. I am fuming.......
 
bandicoot said:
I just read that even after revealing the partial collapse of the business, and consequent loss of credibility and s/h value, nobody is resigning.

Is there a process whereby a group of shareholders can force a 'vote of confidence?'

Better yet, is there a way to actually 'sack' a board and/or its chairman?
Click to expand...

The shareholders would need to get a sufficient block of members together to force the company to call an extraordinary general meeting to spill the board. It's possible to be done but the retail shareholders simply won't have the numbers.

I saw in the papers this morning that Slater & Gordon has been approached about a possible class action suit against SIP.
 
Taking a class action might benefit Slater and Gordon but it's rather counter-productive for shareholders to take action against their own company!

Now action against the directors would be a different matter but I guess they are indemnified by the company in any case so any insurance payout would result in an increased premium being paid - by the company - read "shareholders"!

:rolleyes:
 
oldblue said:
Taking a class action might benefit Slater and Gordon but it's rather counter-productive for shareholders to take action against their own company!

Now action against the directors would be a different matter but I guess they are indemnified by the company in any case so any insurance payout would result in an increased premium being paid - by the company - read "shareholders"!

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I really don't care who pays, I have losted my money and if there is any chance of getting some back I will go for it. The Directors knew of the impending doom but they failed to disclosed their knowledge in a timely manner under the ASIC continous disclosure requirements. Had I known about the difficulties facing the Company late last year I wouldn't have invested in the Company.

Instead they continued to supply misleading profit forecasts and I made my investment decision based on this. I have been mislead.

Even toady - the CEO is still making doubtful statements like Sigma will resume making didvidends next year and they will stagger out of the current problems and the underlying business is sound.

Firstly, there is no way Sigma will be making any dividends soon. Dividends can only be made out of profits (equity) and right now after the huge write offs they have a negative owners equity. Somebody tell me how you can make a dividend out of negative equity. And it will be a long time before they can return to a positive equity.

Secondly, under the new banking covenance, they have to sell assets. It is not known what they are going to sell and how much they have to sell. I believe this is not a small number, there have a very significant debt to reduce and their assets have been bought at the top of the market. IMO there are more write downs to come. Is this business as usual?

Thirdly, the banks have increased their interest because of the higher risk, considering the huge amount of debt what is the increased interest expense going to do to the bottom line. Still business as usual?

Finally, about 1.2 billion of debt is due next year and unless they can turn the ship round in time and avoid a fire sale this is going to be a big problem.

In the old days military commanders are expected to fall on their swords after disasters and in this case someone has to fall on their sword. I want my pound of flesh for my money.
 
oldblue said:
Taking a class action might benefit Slater and Gordon but it's rather counter-productive for shareholders to take action against their own company!

Now action against the directors would be a different matter but I guess they are indemnified by the company in any case so any insurance payout would result in an increased premium being paid - by the company - read "shareholders"!

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Insurance and Company indemnities does NOT cover fraud and wilful misconduct or criminal breaches. Directors in breach can be sued personally.

ASIC has an obligation to investigate Elmo and the board, if certain allegations made against them are proven then it is going to be litigation BIG time.

Wild speculations have already begin to circulate about their Sale and Profit numbers. I repeat "wild speculations" at this stage. It is a common practise to dress up sales and profit numbers by consigning stock to retailers, it is speculated that retail chemists have been induced to stock up on their products and given 180 days to pay. IF this is true then how did SIP treat this practise. Is the goods on consignment treated as inventory which does not inflate profit or has this been treated as a sale which inflates profit.

I believe that their audit report is also heavily qualified and raised doubts to their going concern ability. 45 cents may look a bargain right now but the full facts are only just starting to emerge.

It took 5 weeks of "discussions" with their auditors and bankers before they released their accounts. Historically, when this happens - the company does not survive. Time will tell with SIP. Is this company undervalued at 45 cents? You make up your own mind. For me I am now only a poorer spectator.
 
So far, the press talk has been about possible legal action against the company, not against individual directors or officers, but I guess that could change in time.

Of course, the problem with acting aginst individuals is that one relies on them being worth the "powder and shot", either in their own right or through appropriate liability insurance that covers them for the alleged misdemeanors.

I've been following SIP for several years but was never convinced that either the company or the sector offered compelling reasons to invest, compared to other opportunities.
 
vincent191 said:
I really don't care who pays, I have losted my money and if there is any chance of getting some back I will go for it. The Directors knew of the impending doom but they failed to disclosed their knowledge in a timely manner under the ASIC continous disclosure requirements. Had I known about the difficulties facing the Company late last year I wouldn't have invested in the Company.

Instead they continued to supply misleading profit forecasts and I made my investment decision based on this. I have been mislead.

Even toady - the CEO is still making doubtful statements like Sigma will resume making didvidends next year and they will stagger out of the current problems and the underlying business is sound.

Firstly, there is no way Sigma will be making any dividends soon. Dividends can only be made out of profits (equity) and right now after the huge write offs they have a negative owners equity. Somebody tell me how you can make a dividend out of negative equity. And it will be a long time before they can return to a positive equity.

Secondly, under the new banking covenance, they have to sell assets. It is not known what they are going to sell and how much they have to sell. I believe this is not a small number, there have a very significant debt to reduce and their assets have been bought at the top of the market. IMO there are more write downs to come. Is this business as usual?

Thirdly, the banks have increased their interest because of the higher risk, considering the huge amount of debt what is the increased interest expense going to do to the bottom line. Still business as usual?

Finally, about 1.2 billion of debt is due next year and unless they can turn the ship round in time and avoid a fire sale this is going to be a big problem.

In the old days military commanders are expected to fall on their swords after disasters and in this case someone has to fall on their sword. I want my pound of flesh for my money.
Click to expand...


I can understand your unhappiness at what has occurred.
I agree with your summation of the situation, nice and concise.
There is little or no chance of any recovery of money by any means.
Either (a) legal or (b) price recovery. (c) Revenge.

Legal
There is the issue of the write down of the carrying capacity of good will.
What happened here was poor judgement, or risk taking or, lack of proactive management. They are in denial about this they are calling it bad luck.
Now de-wiz and de-thick or whatever their names are would say this was caused by unforeseen circumstances. I would say it's their job to foresee the unforeseen and should have protected share swap acquisition deals with some mechanism like a call option. Or put a price limit in the deal. They didn't, I think incompetent but not illegal. And the good will had to be written down not to do so would have been illegal.

price recovery
I think the board is in denial, I don't think they really want to face the reality of the situation they are in. I guess this is basic human nature not to want to face up to the bald truth. because it's ugly.

I think it's this.
Banking covenants have been breached and waived by a consortium of the big four. They have done this because they think they can get some or all their money back. They have the say whether future dividends will be paid.
Basically you have a company with margin pressures in a highly competitive market now in the hands of their bankers.

I understand this is a quote from their audit report.
‘there is significant uncertainty as to whether the company … will continue as a going concern and, therefore, whether it will realise its assets and extinguish its liabilities in the normal course of business’

I had a 9% portfolio weighting my buy price was 92 cents and my exit price was 48 cents. So obviously I would say get out. The issue is where and when and that depends a lot on where the shares are held, personally, SMSF, etc. Also on the rest of your portfolio. So do feel your pain but make sure you get out at the most advantageous time for tax, try to get something positive out train wreck. I kind of feel that leaving it much past July 1st 2010 would not be good.

Revenge
Yes it would be sweet but we all know it is only in John Wayne movies that the guys in the white hats win and the bad guy always looses. I think some american investment fund has about a 6% chunk of Sigma if they got cross I suppose something might happen. But my information is that $1.9 million a year man good old Elmo de Alwis is quite relaxed about it all. Don't you just love it he gets paid 2 million for loosing half our money and if you go and look at the announcements late last year you will notice he got a performance bonus. So I can understand his relaxed state up to a point.
Anyway if he got the sack he could always go and run the NSW RTA he has all the right qualities.


Cheers

Gary
 
Resignation of CEO & Managing Director
The Company CEO and Managing Director, Elmo De Alwis has today tendered his resignation to
the Company as Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director, which the Board has accepted.

Ann out 2:38 PM.

Yay????


Ediit
Ha ha the SP was dow 2% and is now uo 3%. Thats a 5% rise on the ann. :lol:
 
UMike said:
Resignation of CEO & Managing Director
The Company CEO and Managing Director, Elmo De Alwis has today tendered his resignation to
the Company as Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director, which the Board has accepted.

Ann out 2:38 PM.

Yay????


Ediit
Ha ha the SP was dow 2% and is now uo 3%. Thats a 5% rise on the ann. :lol:
Click to expand...

Elmo's resignation had come too late. I have done my bread but there are still plenty of people out there trying to catch falling knives. Snabbu, do what I had done, have a couple beers and forget about SIP, there are plenty of fishes in the sea.

How can I trust SIP ever again. Only last week Elmo was saying it is business as usual, fundamentals have not changed and he had the full support of the board and now barely a few days latter he resigns and the board had accepted it almost straight away. What a turn around in such a short space of time, what else have they told us which is a bunch of lies.

I reckon the current sp is being pushed up by Instos trying to get out, could be a pump & dump you reckon?
 
vincent191 said:
Elmo's resignation had come too late. I have done my bread but there are still plenty of people out there trying to catch falling knives. Snabbu, do what I had done, have a couple beers and forget about SIP, there are plenty of fishes in the sea.

How can I trust SIP ever again. Only last week Elmo was saying it is business as usual, fundamentals have not changed and he had the full support of the board and now barely a few days latter he resigns and the board had accepted it almost straight away. What a turn around in such a short space of time, what else have they told us which is a bunch of lies.

I reckon the current sp is being pushed up by Instos trying to get out, could be a pump & dump you reckon?
Click to expand...

"On behalf of the Board, I sincerely thank Elmo for his hard work and dedication throughout his 33 years with the business," Sigma chairman John Stocker said in a statement to the Australian Securities Exchange (ASX)

Thank you for your excellent advice, I shall replace the beers with single malts as is my want.
John stoker has just lost half a mill:)
and he thanks Elmo for this :D
What a soft ****.
Fancy investing in a company when the FIN CON is a woman called DE- THICK, you have to laugh sometimes I can be very stupid besides my wise looks. A women !!! ( is this misogynist) and DE-THICK!!!

Ah Yes the bishop in the bedroom with the alter boy.

Stoker's cards are marked as a wanker, my little black book says if Stokers on the board don't buy the shares.
 

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