Should Australia become a Republic?

[2020hindsight]

Does a child even know the difference between Head of State, & prime minister? I know I certainly didn't at the age of dreaming of such things! : Heck, does the average adult even know?

Nyden, whether President or GG mightn't mean much now - but EVEN IF it’s only symbolic – it will unquestionably mean a lot in the future if it actually happens. (imo)

whether that “TRUE stand-alone independence” means more to us
or to the rest of the world
is for a future day to reveal.

Australia needs to grow up. Hopefully before I die, a child growing up in Australia can live the dream that they can aspire to one day being Australia's Head of State!

:iagree:

 

[Julia]

Either way, you have destroyed your own argument.

No! Who'd have thought it possible!

 

[2020hindsight]

In the flow of conversation, that's exactly what you said.

Either way, you have destroyed your own argument.

to be honest wayne
you started talking H's and J's
I didn't have a clue what you were talking about .

 

[2020hindsight]

No! Who'd have thought it possible!

good on you Julia
hey does J stand for Julia? maybe?

PS On other discussions - (rather than use up a new post here), ...

I hereby declare that I accept the reality that Australian citizens, wheresoever situated, and whatever their true allegiance to Australia, will all (in the end) have an equal vote in the referendum under discussion.

I accept that democracy comes first

(of course that assumes that those who hypotheticaly leave can be bothered voting)

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Nyden, whether President or GG mightn't mean much now - but EVEN IF it’s only symbolic – it will unquestionably mean a lot in the future if it actually happens. (imo)

:

Should we ever get an elected president I will change my signature from GG to EP........El Presidente, with Joe's permission of course.

gg

 

[kloid]

Re: Should Australia become a Republic

No change to the flag... No Republic... Rudd should promote Anzac day and maybe make the another terrible event that was the fall of Singapore a national holiday as well... Australia has a history, be it short...

Travel around Australia and rarely do you see a Australian flag flying...compared to many of our neighbours who are proud of their flag and history...

I disagree. Drive around any UK town or city and you will rarely see a flag flown except during any international sporting event (mainly during the Euro or World soccer championship). On the other hand, I will see at least 3 Aussie flags in the 800 metre stroll from my house to the local bottleshop. And having travelled a lot more in Australia than my native England I think that national pride is far greater than you'd find in the UK. As for our neighbours (which ones? NZ, PNG, SE Asia?) I can't comment.

As for Australia becoming a Republic I tend to think similarly to others in that it wouldn't achieve anything, other than creating a huge cost in changing everything. Maybe this wouldn't be a bad thing - many of us will own stocks that would benefit from such as change. Practically though, Australia is independant. The only thing we rely on from our "mother" country is some decent TV shows. In my 6 years living in this wonderful country that is the only thing I can complain about openly

Kloid

 

[2020hindsight]

And include the proposition by Julian Burnside I think it was, that lying by politicans be made a criminal offense.

not much point in quoting from the 2020summit whiskers

more here are bored stiff by it

 

[nioka]

Australia needs to grow up. Hopefully before I die, a child growing up in Australia can live the dream that they can aspire to one day being Australia's Head of State!

Probably the last thing 99.999999999999999999999999999% of people would dream about. Let's face it, the power is with the Prime Minister and the head of state is symbolic and ceremonial. Leave it the way it is and let us spend our efforts in changing the habits of pollies. Id sooner spend time trying to get rid of the state gonernments than the monarchy. But then my Grandfather came from Plymoth and my great grandfather on my grandmother's side, from Glasgow. After them, all the others in between were born in Aussie.
(And We do fly the Aussie flag most of the time)

If I dream it is more likely to be about fishing and the one that got away. Who in their right mind would want to be "The President" and have to work with polititions.

 

[tadpole]

And I repeat my question
what right have people who leave to vote in a referendum?
(morally if not legally )

are you aware that neither frazer or whitlalm were living in australia in the lead up to the republican referendum? both came back to fight the cause then promptly left again. if they received any $'s for the t.v. commercial good luck to the old blokes, i wish them well in their overseas ventures.
leave our country the way it is, there is no need to change. i'm with you nyden.

 

[Tysonboss1]

The system we have is great, lets not mess with it.

Our current system works,... i stable,... and is tried and tested.

and if we do have to have a republic,.... lets not model it off USA, we can't afford to waste money on presidential elections.

 

[2020hindsight]

… i wish them well in their overseas ventures.
leave our country the way it is, there is no need to change. I’m with you nyden.

..wish them well in their overseas ventures ? .. hey so do I. !
and sure , these blokes get around. And both are exceptional Aussies.

btw, there’s a difference between an expatriate (which I don’t believe either of them is / was), and an ex-patriot.
btw there are a few meanings for expatriate - this is the one I would reckon most appropriate to the modern era of easy travel.

expatiate, noun 1. a person who is voluntarily absent from home or country

Fraser is even (apparently) a Privy Councillor , which I assume means he can give advice to the Queen. Appropriate advice of course

Her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council is a body of advisors to the British Sovereign.

In retirement Fraser served as Chairman of the United Nations Panel of Eminent Persons on the Role of Transnational Corporations in South Africa 1985, as Co-Chairman of the Commonwealth Group of Eminent Persons on South Africa in 1985-86, and as Chairman of the UN Secretary-General's Expert Group on African Commodity Issues in 1989-90. Fraser became president of the foreign aid group Care International in 1991, and worked with a number of other charitable organisations. In 2006, he was appointed Professorial Fellow at the Asia Pacific Centre for Military Law, and in October 2007 he presented his inaugural professorial lecture, Finding Security in Terrorism’s Shadow: The importance of the rule of law.[7]
…..
Fraser was made a Privy Councillor in 1976, a Companion of Honour in 1977 and a Companion of the Order of Australia in 1988. In 2000 he was awarded the Human Rights Medal. He received the Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun from the Emperor of Japan in 2006.[14]…..honorary doctorates from Deakin University, Murdoch University and the University of South Carolina, and is a Professorial Fellow at the Asia Pacific Centre for Military Law at the University of Melbourne.

And both he and Whitlam have been awarded the Grand Cordon (careful of the spelling there) of the Rising Star apparently

Whitlam was appointed … a Companion of the Order of Australia in 1978.[21] In 2005 He was created an honorary Grand Commander of the Order of the Star of Melanesia by the Governor General of Papua New Guinea.[22]
In 2006 both he and Malcolm Fraser were awarded the Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun by the Emperor of Japan, in recognition of their role in improving relations between Japan and Australia.[23] Whitlam is an honorary Fellow of the Australian Academy of Humanities.[24]

And I agree with you and Nyden to some extent – let’s call it “ if the wheel ain’t broke – other than the tyre is a worn out model , don’t reinvent it, just change the tyre” . i.e. “that giving the president unprecedented powers would definitely risk ‘breaking it’” (imo and I think yours)

I feel that to massively turn the status quo around, e.g. were we to vote for a powerful president rather than continue the 400 year old figurehead role (since Charles I lost his head over this) would be a mistake, and invite disaster.

In conclusion I feel that it would have an appropriate “ring” if…
given that the last king of England (prior to Parliament taking over the reins after a horrific Civil War ) was Charles I, 1649 (just after QEI and then James I ) ..

that the last Queen of Aus should be Queen Elizabeth II or possibly Charles III.

PS - or is one proper Charlie enough maybe?

 

[2020hindsight]

btw, here’s what Bob Carr had to say on this yesterday.. – for yet another opinion. - a dead simple republic !

What do you blokes think of this suggestion?.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/19/2221785.htm

For New South Wales premier Bob Carr is not coy about his contribution.
"A lot of big ideas - an easy way to get a republic ... simply making the governor-general the head of the state of Australia," he said.
"That resolves all the arguments about presidents and elected presidents or non-elected presidents.

 

[2020hindsight]

Note the bold bits ....

http://www.thecommonwealth.org/Internal/150757/head_of_the_commonwealth/

Head of the Commonwealth
The London Declaration of 1949 stated that the British monarch would be a symbol of the free association of independent countries, and as such the Head of the Commonwealth. These words meant that republics could be members - they could accept the monarch as Head of the Commonwealth without being their own Head of State. Thus when Elizabeth II came to the throne in 1952 she became Head of the Commonwealth.

Today the Queen is head of state in 16 of the 53 Commonwealth member countries, all of them fully independent in which – apart from the UK – she is represented by a governor-general.

When the Queen dies or if she abdicates, her heir will not automatically become Head of the Commonwealth. It will be up to the Commonwealth heads of government to decide what they want to do about this symbolic role.

The Queen has laid considerable stress on her role as Head of the Commonwealth, and made a great contribution to the association.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles,_Prince_of_Wales

Charles is Heir Apparent, equally and separately, to the thrones of sixteen sovereign states known as the Commonwealth realms; he will most likely reside in and be directly involved with the United Kingdom. He will not, however, necessarily inherit the title Head of the Commonwealth.

 

[2020hindsight]

Probably the last thing 99.999..9% of people would dream about. Let's face it, the power is with the Prime Minister and the head of state is symbolic and ceremonial.

so nioka (et al) -
is this also about our external image perhaps?
do you think that Asia / China etc would prefer to deal with a country that insists for some unknown reason (unknown to us as well probably) on holding a British apron string.

or with a country that is totally autonymous. ?

I personally think India would also smile in our direction

 

[Aussiejeff]

LOL....

Strangely, for a "topic" not worthy of discussion compared to all Oz's other woes (as many pundits here proclaim) THIS one in particular seems to still generate a LOT of heated discussion - so maybe some "pundits" on the subject of what constitues a "worthy topic" are actually un-witting hypocrites!

So before I proceed, to refresh everyone's memory I've attached the results of the failed 1999 Referendum.

Maybe we could consider the following points in the (continuing) debate:

(1) So much hot air is being expelled over this Republic issue that we risk increasing the level of toxic greenhouse gases!

(2) Now, referring (sic) to the 1999 Referendum results, in fact Victoria at 49.84% was VERY close to gaining a majority YES vote and NSW at 46.43 wasn't all that far behind. Given that 9 long years have passed since then (during which time many aged pro-Monarchist voters have passed on and during which time a significant number of new young pro-Republic voters have come on line) I wouldn't be at all suprised if the balance had actually tipped into a pro-Republic stance for VIC, NSW, ACT & NT (which collectively in 1999 would have represented 7,259,945 (62%)of issued ballots). SA voter sentiment today might also be close to the tipping point, which could make 3 states plus 2 territories. The big unknown is how much support pro-Republic Rudd would have garnered from his own beloved QLD electors - with QLD being by far the most pro-Monarchist state in the last referendum. If Rudd's massive support base in QLD tripped over the Republic line in any future referendum, the preceding results table would indicate it will be game over for the Monarchist camp....

With what must be a fairly significant changeover of pro-Republic/pro-Monarchist demographics over the last 9 years, I think the very best that Monarchists can hope for in any future referendum (remembering of course that as each year passes, it is probable that more Monarchists pass OUT of the voter lists than new Republicans are listed IN) would be for an extremely "close" result with QLD barely holding out by a percent or two. And I have already indicated the likely worst scenario for them.

On a personal note.... I was born in 1951. My mother & father took me to see the newly crowned Queen Elizabeth in her parade in Sydney in 1954 when I was only three. I don't remember it personally, but they bought lots of commemorative books and paraphernalia and always reminded me how massive the event was and how much the people loved her to bits (she was a symbol of post-war unity and hope, remember?) So I always tended to have what might be termed "fond" reflections of her and what she stood for and achieved.

Until very recently (post Diana's death) I still regarded myself as leaning toward the Monarchist camp. However, with the ever-impending closure of Lizzie's reign and the resultant handover of the Realm to God-knows-whom (depends on the various candidates' states of mind or relationships, or both, at the time!) I find I have become somehwat dis-illusioned with the whole Monarchy thing and indeed have become somewhat "Republicanised".

I know. I suggested prior to this revelation that maybe older, more hardline Royalists are dying out. However, maybe like me, some are becoming just a tad dis-illusioned as well with what the Monarchy has come to represent - possibly just a shadow of it's former self. IMO if the reigning Queen passes away between now and the next referendum, the result will be a foregone conclusion and we will all have to get on with life as before. I'm sure the sky will not fall.....


AJ

PS: Like Garpal Gumnut and some others here, I would support the model of a publicly elected president. Hey, maybe a "peoples forum" a bit like the current 2020 Summit could come up with a final list of suitable candidates?

 

[metric]

by ditching the monarchy, we are effectively ditching the 'elite' figurehead of the commonwealth. as a republic we will be voting in nothing more than an admission we have come under the control of the global elite.

so we have effectively grown from a colony of the brittish elite, to a nation under the control of the international ruling elite (which includes beth). so what will we gain? more masters. and more rules, laws and less freedoms.

i have no boubt that the westminster system and our constiution has mechanisims in place that protect our freedoms that the ruling elite want removed.

hindsight may not be so wonderful in this case...

 

[Superfly]

so nioka (et al) -
is this also about our external image perhaps?
do you think that Asia / China etc would prefer to deal with a country that insists for some unknown reason (unknown to us as well probably) on holding a British apron string.

or with a country that is totally autonymous. ?

I personally think India would also smile in our direction

External image !! ..... what about the external image that China portrays... do you think that China is going to change to do business... look at the torch relay to see China's deserved image...


Unknown reason... well probably is to the many new Australians with PR or a new passport, most of them would not even know and do not care what ANZAC day is all about and would be very happy to see Australia cut of it's
history at 1980.. they are here for the money and do not care about how this country got to be what is today.

This government can not even get a national ban on plastic shopping bags...!

...so many more important issues, dead rivers, cane toads, feral cats, etc etc than a Republic... maybe "Penny Wong", Rudd etc want a Republic... and it maybe a very useful tool in distracting public attention away from their governments poor performance... wasn't banning plastic bags an election promise by St Kevin...

 

[2020hindsight]

1. Given that 9 long years have passed since then (during which time many aged pro-Monarchist voters have passed on and during which time a significant number of new young pro-Republic voters have come on line) ..

2. I wouldn't be at all suprised if the balance had actually tipped into a pro-Republic stance for VIC, NSW, ACT & NT (which collectively in 1999 would have represented 7,259,945 (62%)of issued ballots). SA voter sentiment today might also be close to the tipping point, which could make 3 states plus 2 territories.

3.The big unknown is how much support pro-Republic Rudd would have garnered from his own beloved QLD electors - with QLD being by far the most pro-Monarchist state in the last referendum. If Rudd's massive support base in QLD tripped over the Republic line in any future referendum, the preceding results table would indicate it will be game over for the Monarchist camp....

....
4. On a personal note.... I was born in 1951. My mother & father took me to see the newly crowned Queen Elizabeth in her parade in Sydney in 1954 when I was only three. I don't remember it personally, but they bought lots of commemorative books and paraphernalia and always reminded me how massive the event was and how much the people loved her to bits (she was a symbol of post-war unity and hope, remember?) So I always tended to have what might be termed "fond" reflections of her and what she stood for and achieved.

1. good point about the demographics changing
also the politics incidentally
like, both Turnbull and Costello are republicans for instance, (probably leaving Nelson the only Monarchist) (?)

2. NSW etc - yep - the big states will definitely follow the ACT trend ( I agree fwiw), in fact everyone except possibly Qld..

3. Qld? - lol - Joh's ghost might be dead as well . So I'm also guessing (like you) that even Qld will crawl across the line.

4. I also saw the queen then - I apparently said she was "like an apple on a fence" - mainly because there were lots of fence-post-like people between me and her, and all I saw was her head.

btw, Bill Leak explained this cartoon (from the Australian newspaper) this morning on Insiders - that in his understanding, Quentin is a closet republican

and possibly easier for the public to accept a new woman head of state - since we've grown accustomed to the last one over the last 50 odd years

 

[noirua]

The U.K. is becoming increasingly part of the European Common Market, and some say being dragged kicking and screaming into it. The pound sterling will disappear and the Euro introduced, and in time, the Eurozone will have its own armed force. Where now Australia and the Commonwealth. Who knows, the Union Jack on the Aussie Flag may become a European Flag.

As a Republic it's all a matter of who the hell will be President and what powers will that person have. The Queen just signs Government papers and sends members of the Royal family abroad touting for trade for the U.K., NOT for Australia. So the Royal Family has ZERO worth to the people of Australia.

Will a President be like the American President or the French President, or a ceremonial version like the Queen. How long will the President stand, 6 years in France, 4 years in America, or God forbid, President Rudd until he's 105 years old.

 

[Superfly]

Oh dear. Another another quality thread by Superfly defending all things right wing.

Bored at the Chinese embassy today... not enough Tibetin protestors to keep u on ur toes !!!
....maybe it's the Chinese security that Kevin Rudd said would not be allowed in Australia but now are, has taken them elsewhere...