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This was from your opening post.We can also expect a new orchestrated urge to "fight global warming", so reduce competitiveness of Australia and lower A$, maybe even reduced export of coal due to voters pressure while benefiting EV, solar,wind, or maybe even uranium here if the Uranium lobby plays well.
Also an increased radicalisation on both sides of politics here
But apparently it's wrong to actually address why the thread even has importance.
Well, here is what @qldfrog wanted the focus to be as made clear in his OP:Not wrong, just not the intended focus.
@Smurf1976's analogy would hold true if the only thing that could be considered were discrete measurables such as actual costs to an affected farmer, or total cost to an affected community, etc..SO let's watch this from an investor's view
Your view is antiquated because it reflects only "demand," and there are greater influences at play, including the likelihood of a price on carbon.My ideas are not antiquated, yours are just delusional. I have a completely realistic view of coal. It's dirty etc, it'll one day be abandoned, that may be only decades away and it may be less than one decade before coal use begins to decline, but *coal use is still increasing*. It's ridiculous to call something 'antiquated' when it is still expanding. I'm not saying I love it or want it to expand or anything, but I do have a realistic understanding of the reality of the situation.
Venice's floods were incidental, but my point related to certain risks being either uninsurable in future (depending on location, etc.) or priced out of the market. So in the event of future bushfires affected farmers would have no capital to continue their operations.It's off topic so I won't dwell on it, but obviously insurance companies will use any excuse they can to charge more money, even if it's not justified.
This was your categorisation as my point was about the fact that if you have been affected by bushfires then you will understand the impact of climate change in a way which is real and personal.How do you figure this makes any sense? It's comical that you assert people fall into two categories: one category understands and believes in climate change and is dying from it. The other category doesn't believe in it and isn't suffering!
Your view is antiquated because it reflects only "demand," and there are greater influences at play, including the likelihood of a price on carbon.
Venice's floods were incidental, but my point related to certain risks being either uninsurable in future (depending on location, etc.) or priced out of the market. So in the event of future bushfires affected farmers would have no capital to continue their operations.
This was your categorisation as my point was about the fact that if you have been affected by bushfires then you will understand the impact of climate change in a way which is real and personal.
When Will We Ever Learn?
by Jim Hoggett & Aled Hoggett
IPA Backgrounder, Vol. 16/2, 2004
Conclusion
....The broad credo of governments is to preserve all ecological values everywhere in a centrally planned ecology. This is patently unachievable...
Indeed interesting but not pc article here with good figuresWhen will we ever learn? So many decades of experience-based wisdom that has been unlearned. The real casualty is natural areas biodiversity, cooked in unnecessarily hot wildfires, plus the human lives of the people caught up in these conflagrations
Or you could read what is found when the topic is expertly studied and the real culprit is exposed.Indeed interesting but not pc article here with good figures
http://www.newsweekly.com.au/nwmobile/article.php?id=58792
Excellent piece, and a good summary of the issues.Indeed interesting but not pc article here with good figures http://www.newsweekly.com.au/nwmobile/article.php?id=58792
...“burning 1-2 per cent [of forested areas in WA] is largely ineffective”. There is “a tipping point … We need to get up to the 8 per cent mark for it to have any significant effect for reducing the severity and scale of wildfires”...(above link)
Indeed interesting but not pc article here with good figures
http://www.newsweekly.com.au/nwmobile/article.php?id=58792
Jack i liked not that i agree with all points but neither should anyone expect that unless with fanatics, but at last a sensible argumented answer.thanksSome good points but the "data" is cherry-picked. Several of those Inquiries, going back to the 1939 fires, also pointed to fires starting as a result of ill-timed, privately organised hazard reduction burning.
I also wonder why it concentrates on the Victorian situation when most of the recent/current fires are in NSW and SE Queensland. Most States have a 5% to 8% target for off-season hazard reduction but have 1) failed to resource the responsible agencies to achieve it, and 2) have been struggling to find a sufficient weather widows to do it safely. Getting the volunteers trained and out in the field week after week is also becoming harder for a range of reasons.
Even achieving their targets would not help in many cases. The NSW RFS Chief is on record as saying that some of the NSW fires actually started in areas that did have recent burns. The exceptionally dry weather causes Eucalyptus to shed bark and leaves at an increased rate and many undergrowth shrubs to die back to a dry, twiggy mess, meaning a couple of years is all that is needed to accumulate sufficient fuel loads. Once one of these fires starts in these conditions and reaches canopy height in strong winds and low humidity, no amount of prior hazard reduction will help stop its rapid spread.
Like others, I'd like to see the results of a proper inquiry before any blame gets laid (if, indeed, blame is required).
This "blame the Greens" stuff is, IMO, just a politically motivated diversion. They have no power (except here in the ACT, where hazard reduction burns are a standard feature of our winters) and have policies in support of hazard reduction. Of the three "extreme" greenies I know, two live in the country and are volunteers with their local RFS and spend their winter weekends on standby for prescribed burns. The other participates in regular hazard reduction through National Parks Volunteers. I certainly don't deny that in some localities residents may raise "green" concerns about particular off-season burning plans but these are generally motivated by property or health concerns.
That article also seems to be based on a beef about Victorian forest policy which I don't really understand. But contrasting some mythical nirvana of "selective logging" with a total "no-go - lock-it-up" policy totally ignores the fact that most State Forestry authorities have a) been on notice for at least 30 years that their practices must change on both environmental and economic grounds, and b) most of them have anyway moved to extraction by large-scale clear-felling of native and plantation forests in order to remain even slightly viable. I haven't seen a traditional "selective-logging" commercial operation in the southern States for a long time.
Finally, on the issue of the term "unprecedented", I'd just note that the term was used by fire chiefs in relation to the number of major fires out of control at the same time so early in the fire season, and, possibly, to the coincidence of very dry conditions (drought) and the “sudden stratospheric warming” which generated the extreme heat and wind over Eastern Australia. Sudden stratospheric warming is real and not related, as far as I know, to AGW. They were not talking about the actual scale of the fires or damage to property and human life.
Like any complex event, there will be different interpretations of causes and "what we should have done" but making it ideological seems silly to me. I always subscribe to two maxims:
1) If there is a choice between a stuff-up and a conspiracy, go with the stuff-up every time (P. J. Keating); and
2) For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. (H. L. Mencken)
Thanks. Stay safe frog.Jack i liked not that i agree with all points but neither should anyone expect that unless with fanatics, but at last a sensible argumented answer.thanks
Wish there was more of this in the GW thread
Have a nice week end
I can definitively tell you that when my land will burn in Brisbane hinterland, it will be catastrophic and primarily due to burn off failure and vegetation laws as well as planning of development
As to victoria no local clue
The short term impact is "rebuilding," with materials and labour being sourced beyond immediately affected communities.The medium term impact of the fires is increased demand and increased economic activity as the affected areas are rebuilt.
@qldfrog's linked article said this, and it was false:Excellent piece, and a good summary of the issues.
The short term impact is "rebuilding," with materials and labour being sourced beyond immediately affected communities.
The other impacts relate to increased debt and the consequent ability to service that debt in communities with lesser disposable incomes and livelihoods that are more borderline as each year passes.
You will need to explain how increasing levels of debt can lead to increasing economic activity as, for example, with livestock farming it takes years to get herd sizes to viable levels.
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