Sexual harrassment

[basilio]

After 30 years of " no one saying, no one asking" the worst kept secret of Hollywood final blew up. Harvey Weinsten was accused of being a serial sexual harrasser of women and finally the message was heard.

The fallout has been dramatic for Harvey and his company. He is now a pariah. His wife has left him. He faces multiple legal charges and hundreds perhaps thousands of women are telling or repeating their stories of his sexual aggression.

On the bigger stage however thousands of other women (and men) coming forth with their experiences of harrassment as children, students, employees and just people on the street.

So what could happen as an outcome of this widespread revolt against unwanted assault ? What could change ?

What does sexual harrassment under Harvey Weisten sound like ? How would you feel ?

A Reporter at Large
October 23, 2017 Issue
From Aggressive Overtures to Sexual Assault: Harvey Weinstein’s Accusers Tell Their Stories
Multiple women share harrowing accounts of sexual assault and harassment by the film executive.

By Ronan Farrow

Check story for link to audio tape of Harvey hitting on a young actress
.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...harvey-weinsteins-accusers-tell-their-stories

 

[SirRumpole]

A lot of people knew but did nothing. Same with Jimmy Saville.

The industry has to change, but maybe there should b a "sexual assault" ombudsman. Trouble is to prevent it being a witch-hunt that has to come up with cases to prove that it is needed.

eg the Human Rights Commission.

 

[tech/a]

i know of Three people on the other side.
IE falsely accused.

2 in private enterprise and one a teacher.
In these cases peoples lives can be destroyed while the false
accusers remains in tact. Vengeance in all 3 cases.

Very sad out comes for 2

 

[basilio]

i know of Three people on the other side.
IE falsely accused.

2 in private enterprise and one a teacher.
In these cases peoples lives can be destroyed while the false
accusers remains in tact. Vengeance in all 3 cases.

Very sad out comes for 2

Hmm.. I think that is an exceptionally one sided view. I don't doubt there are false accusations but the reality how women are harrassed and squeezed for sex without comeback is overwhelmingly extensive.
If I had to pick a particular instance you couldn't go past Donald Trump managing to become President despite his own admitted behaviours and many unrelated complants of sexual harrassment.

Having said that perhaps the time is right to review Donald Trump behaviour and capcity to lie through his teeth about it.

Trump Accuser Demands Release Of Documents On All His Sexual Assault Allegations
Summer Zervos, who claims Trump groped her without consent, is suing the president for defamation.
16/10/2017 6:01 AM AEDT | Updated 16/10/2017 6:01 AM AEDT
36.2 K

• Daniel Marans Reporter, HuffPost

X

A woman who accused President Donald Trump of unwanted groping has subpoenaed all documents held by his presidential campaign about any harassment and assault allegations against him, BuzzFeed News reported Saturday.

Summer Zervos, a former contestant on “The Apprentice” and one of many women who came forward during the campaign to accuse Trump of harassment or assault, initiated the subpoena as part of her lawsuit against the president for defamation. Zervos decided to sue Trump in January months after the then-presidential candidate denied the allegation and dismissed all of his accusers as liars.

In her bid to establish that Trump “defamed” her, Zervos’s subpoena aims to prove how Trump deliberately tried to discredit her and the other accusers.

The subpoena, which is liable to renew public attention on the numerous allegations against Trump, sets the stage for another legal and political headache for the president.

Zervos’ subpoena requires him to turn over all documents “concerning any accusations that were made during Donald J. Trump’s election campaign for president, that he subjected any woman to unwanted sexual touching and/or sexually inappropriate behavior.” The order would cover documents about Zervos, as well as other women who accused Trump of groping, including, but not limited to, Jessica Leeds, Mindy McGillivray, Rachel Crooks, Natasha Stoynoff, Temple Taggart, Kristin Anderson, Cathy Heller, Jill Harth, and Jessica Drake.

Zervos’ legal team, which includes nationally renowned women’s rights attorney Gloria Allred, issued the subpoena in March, but it only entered the court record in September.

Trump’s attorneys tried to get the suit dismissed in March on the grounds that the president is immune from being sued while in office. They also tried to dismiss the subpoena in July, arguing that it “seeks wholly irrelevant information intended solely to harass the president.”

During Trump’s campaign, he vowed to sue the women who accused him of assault and harassment, but he has not followed through on the promise.

Mike Blake / Reuters
Summer Zervos, a former contestant on "The Apprentice," is suing President Donald Trump for defamation after he denied groping her without consent.
The subpoena comes to light at a moment of heightened public sensitivity to the impunity given to many powerful men allowing them to sexually harass and assault women. Famed Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein was fired by the company he founded and expelled from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences after the New York Times reported earlier this month that Weinstein had settled numerous accusations of sexual harassment out of court. The report prompted a flood of additional allegations against Weinstein, including claims that he physically assaulted women and forced them to perform sex acts.

The allegations against Weinstein bear an eerie resemblance to the accounts of many Trump accusers.

At least 16 women have publicly accused Trump of forcibly attempting to kiss, grope and have sex with them. Many of those women came forward in October 2016 following the leaked 2005 video of Trump bragging to “Access Hollywood” host Billy Bush that he freely touches women without their consent, infamously stating that he can “grab them by the pussy.”

Zervos said that in 2007 Trump summoned her to meet about professional matters on several occasions and then kissed, groped and humped her against her will.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/en...mp-sexual-assault_us_59e3a30de4b03a7be5816360

 

[basilio]

Returning to the impact the Weinsten case is having on awareness of harrassment and use of power to coerce (mainly) women in the workplace.

I thought these articles had something to add.

'It's been a long time coming:' mogul's downfall sparks a 'Weinstein effect' of calling out harassment
After awareness-raising, it's time to take action on sexual assault and harassment: activists
By Jessica Wong, CBC News Posted: Oct 20, 2017 2:38 PM ET Last Updated: Oct 20, 2017 2:38 PM ET

The mounting allegations against Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein have ignited a powerful, widespread discussion about how pervasive sexual harassment and assault remain today. (Dimitrios Kambouris/Getty Images for TNT)

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• Montreal police set up hotline for sexual assault complainants
• Where do men fit in #MeToo conversations about sexual violence?
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• When powerful men run the show, can Hollywood really stamp out abuse?

The mounting allegations against Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein have ignited a powerful, widespread discussion — online and off — about how pervasive sexual harassment and assault remain in our society today.

It's provoked a sort of "Weinstein effect," with waves of accusers coming forward to publicly call out powerful figures, and institutions acknowledging their allegations and quickly responding — heartening activists who've long battled sexual harassment.

• 'Now that we are speaking, let us never shut up:' Lupita Nyong'o, Quentin Tarantino on Harvey Weinstein
  

"It's been a long time coming," journalist and documentary filmmaker Francine Pelletier told CBC Radio's Daybreak in Montreal this week, describing the "fast and furious" number of revelations emerging about high-profile men.

In Quebec alone, this week saw Just for Laughs president Gilbert Rozon, media personality Éric Salvail and radio host Gilles Parent removed amid allegations of sexual misconduct.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/weinstein-wave-callout-harassment-1.4363658

 

[tech/a]

Not a one sided view
A fact
There are many terrible cases of harassment sexual and plain bullying

But there IS a flip side if you get on the wrong side of it
Victimisation can be more damning to the accused than the genuine victims.

Suicide is pretty drastic

 

[wayneL]

I wonder how many of the Hollywood dems who covered up for him so long have bagged out Trump?

 

[Smurf1976]

Sexual harassment is one problem and I don't want to trivialise that in any way.

It's one aspect of a broader problem however where some individuals in a position of relative power exploit others.

Taking advantage of their position of relative strength is the first part. Psychological abuse to leave the victim feeling worthless or less capable and thus trapped by the abuser is the other part.

Personal relationships, any arrangement where money is involved, even things like charity or sports teams it can happen. Abuse of the elderly or disabled is another example. All it needs is one person to have relative power over another and to unreasonably exploit it.

Sadly I've seen it happen where the gain for the abuser was nothing more than pure personal enjoyment through exercising their power over another. No sex involved, no monetary or similar gain, they just enjoyed keeping others down.

I haven't seen any statistics but I think it's a bigger problem in society than most realise.

It's one area where government needs to lead in my view. It's not just physical violence or sexual abuse, there's a far broader issue.

 

[sptrawler]

Sexual harassment is one problem and I don't want to trivialise that in any way.

It's one aspect of a broader problem however where some individuals in a position of relative power exploit others.

Taking advantage of their position of relative strength is the first part. Psychological abuse to leave the victim feeling worthless or less capable and thus trapped by the abuser is the other part.

Personal relationships, any arrangement where money is involved, even things like charity or sports teams it can happen. Abuse of the elderly or disabled is another example. All it needs is one person to have relative power over another and to unreasonably exploit it.

Sadly I've seen it happen where the gain for the abuser was nothing more than pure personal enjoyment through exercising their power over another. No sex involved, no monetary or similar gain, they just enjoyed keeping others down.

I haven't seen any statistics but I think it's a bigger problem in society than most realise.

It's one area where government needs to lead in my view. It's not just physical violence or sexual abuse, there's a far broader issue.

I agree with you completely, we had a shop steward, who intimidated everyone( well not everyone) but most.
He is now in upper management,in another company in another State, he was just an oversized A hole.
I've found over my life, that these people end up at a sad end, usually because those nearest and dearest see them for what they are.

 

[basilio]

Interesting thoughts. I suppose what I see most clearly is a mens view. What happens for example if a women makes a false allegation ? What are the consequences ?

Obviously no good but in fairness the opposite situation is far, far more common. That is that women (or men) who are harrassed or abused or raped are disbelieved and as result face the double trauma of the action and then the disbelief.

This was one of the most striking elements of the children abused by priests etc. In almost all cases any child who spoke up was abused by parents and the Church for saying such evil things.

In the broader sense it is quite true to recognise abuse/harrassment by people in power, particularly in the work place. I suggest that this topic is more readily recognised because men are also very directly affected.

I opened this thread because I believed the downfall of Harvey Weinstein was a good opportunity to think about the broader experience of the women in our lives. From my experience I believe almost every woman I have had a reasonable friendship with has told me of incidents of harrasment, abuse or violence. Very few of these incidents was reported.

How would it feel to be harrassed ? Consider this from a womens view..

"Imagine that you’ve taken your car to a mechanic to get it fixed. You’ve come back to pick up your car after closing time. It’s just you & the mechanic at the shop.

This mechanic is bigger & stronger than you. He tells you it’s going to take an hour to finish fixing your car, you might as well wait. He compliments your ass & it soon becomes clear that this mechanic is attracted to you.

You let him know that you are straight & that you’re not interested. He apologizes but tells you anyway how much he would like to xuck you. Even though you’ve made it clear that’s not going to happen, he tells you a few more times how much he would like to xuck you & asks if he can at least give your ass a squeeze. He’s being nice, not aggressive but he then tries to rub your crotch & asks if he can see your asshole. He keeps asking for more even though you say no.

Again, you are all alone with him & you can’t leave yet because he hasn’t finished fixing your car.

He continues to tell you what a great ass you have, that you’re just so sexy & how much he would like to xuck you.

Are you imagining this? How do you feel? Do you feel uncomfortable? Do you think you would find that fun or enjoyable? He’s complimenting you & just telling you what he would like to do. He keeps asking for what you’ve said no to, but he’s nice about it. He isn’t being aggressive but you don’t know this guy, if you reject him too hard or if you’re rude, who knows what he might do? He might rape you or hurt you. He might not fix your car. You don’t know, do you?"

 

[SirRumpole]

I agree with you completely, we had a shop steward, who intimidated everyone( well not everyone) but most.
He is now in upper management,in another company in another State, he was just an oversized A hole.
I've found over my life, that these people end up at a sad end, usually because those nearest and dearest see them for what they are.

Yes there are psychopaths in every industry. They usually rise quickly because they have the art of bullying people to do the work and then take credit for it themselves, they can lie without compunction and come over as charming to those who have power to promote them. They can divide and conquer their employees, punishing those who oppose while rewarding those who suck up to them.

Dangerous people. Can we think of an example in international politics ?

 

[basilio]

Now if you want to discuss some other notable media figures who have been involved in multiple sexual harrassment of junior female colleagues or guests whose livilhood was based on being "agreeable" check out Bill O Reilly and Fox Chairman Roger Ailes.

Bill O'Reilly settled $32m sexual harassment claim before signing Fox News deal – report

• 21st Century Fox says it knew of NYT-reported settlement with analyst
• O’Reilly was ousted over other settlements totalling $13m months later

Bill O’Reilly poses on the set of his show The O’Reilly Factor, in New York in 2015. Photograph: Brendan Mcdermid/Reuters

Shares
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Reuters in New York

Saturday 21 October 2017 23.16 BST First published on Saturday 21 October 2017 23.00 BST

Bill O’Reilly, the Fox News commentator who was forced to resign in April, agreed to a $32m sexual harassment settlement in January which the network’s parent knew about when it gave him a new contract the next month, the New York Times reported on Saturday.

The previously undisclosed agreement, at least the sixth involving O’Reilly or the company related to harassment charges against him, was “extraordinarily large” for such cases, according to the newspaper, which cited two people “briefed on the matter”.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/oct/21/bill-oreilly-32m-harassment-claim-fox-news-deal

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Yes there are psychopaths in every industry. They usually rise quickly because they have the art of bullying people to do the work and then take credit for it themselves, they can lie without compunction and come over as charming to those who have power to promote them. They can divide and conquer their employees, punishing those who oppose while rewarding those who suck up to them.

Yep! I've been in one job where the manager was a complete a-hole. You know what I did? I left. I walked out and told them to shove it. I was without any income at all for 3 months. Since I left, about 10 others left within 2 years. In this organization, I was totally powerless to complain.... totally. But there was no way I was going to compromise with that prick of a manager. No way.

Now what about if these Hollywood starlets showed the same fortitude and walked out when faced with a bully? Oh no, it's better to compromise your morals, sleep with the creep, then complain later. What a joke. Most normal women would slap, scream, kick and do whatever necessary to get the message across, then never go near him again.

 

[basilio]

Now what about if these Hollywood starlets showed the same fortitude and walked out when faced with a bully? Oh no, it's better to compromise your morals, sleep with the creep, then complain later. What a joke. Most normal women would slap, scream, kick and do whatever necessary to get the message across, then never go near him again.

Nice one Gringott. You certainly seem to live in a Black/White Judgement world.

Maybe the point of this thread was to explore the type of world where men are allowed to hit on women as a matter of right and destiny and women have to cope with this this xhit in whatever way they can ?

Have you read the story I started the thread with ? Did you listen to Harveys power/manipulation play on the young actress? Perhaps worth adding to your knowledge base ?
_______________________________________________________
And one more thing. Saying that "most normal woman would scratch, scream and kick their way out of trouble" is about as xhitty a way of responding to the experiences of almost every woman I know as can be imagined.

 

[basilio]

More fallout from Harvey Weinstein.

And Gringott this one followed your advice. In fact there were more than a few actresses who just left the industry after being harrassed by Harvey Weinstein.

Harvey Weinstein scandal: More women come forward

• Jayme Deerwester and Maria Puente

19 reading now

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Power lawyer Gloria Allred has brought forth a new Harvey Weinstein accuser, former actress Heather Kerr, 56, who claims Weinstein exposed himself to her and told her she had to sleep with him and other Hollywood producers and directors in order to succeed in the industry.

Kerr said Weinstein told her that is "how Hollywood works" when she met him alone at a Westwood office to discuss how he could help her
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/ent...-more-women-come-forward-20171021-gz5npf.html

 

[basilio]

And from the womens point of view.

The way men have reacted to Weinstein fall-out says a lot about how women aren't heard

• Natalie Reilly

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Shockwaves continue to ripple out over the entertainment industry this week in the wake of the Weinstein scandal, with multitudes of actresses, models and even showrunners coming forward to speak about how Harvey Weinstein, and his brother, Bob, have sexually assaulted them.

Indeed, the Weinstein scandal has opened up countless old wounds for millions of sexual assault survivors.

Reese Witherspoon has spoken about her experiences of sexual assault. Photo: AP
On Monday, actress Alyssa Milano began the "Me Too" campaign, asking women on social media to simply post "Me too" if they'd ever experienced sexual harassment.

At press time, more than 12 million women – and not a few men – have posted the hashtag to their Twitter, Instagram and Facebook accounts.

On Tuesday at the Elle Women in Hollywood Awards, Reese Witherspoon and Jennifer Lawrence, two of the highest paid and most powerful stars in the game, both spoke publicly about their experiences of sexual harassment and assault on the job.

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• 'Director assaulted me when I was 16'
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After describing the events surrounding her assault at the age of 16, Witherspoon concluded by saying, "[I feel] true disgust at the director who assaulted me when I was 16 years old and anger at the agents and the producers who made me feel that silence was a condition of my employment."

Lawrence ended her speech – about how she was forced to strip down for a role, and sexually harassed by her director – on a similar note, saying, "I let myself be treated a certain way because I felt like I had to for my career."

These stories, the literal millions of them, are largely unsurprising to women. The surprise is that these stories are being told publicly, when they're usually told tearfully, or anxiously, or drunkenly, if they're told at all.

It has been men, generally speaking, who have been left shocked by these stories. And it's in the shadow of the Weinstein scandal that ordinary, often privileged men, have caught a glimpse of what it is to be female.

The Harvey Weinstein scandal has unleashed an outpouring of women sharing their experiences, and men asking why they didn't "do something" about it earlier. Photo: AP
Liz Meriwether, writing for New York magazine shortly after Donald Trump's victims came forward last year, described it as thus, "Men who hear these stories, I've found, tend to interrogate you to get to the truth of what happened, then, if they believe you, they want retaliation or revenge. Men want rules to be enforced and authorities called. Women want those things, too, but we understand the complicated mental calculations that are forced on us."

And so begins the crux of another, seemingly more pedestrian problem between men and women. How many times has this cliche complaint been brought up in couples counselling and TV shows and Oprah:

Jennifer Lawrence: "I let myself be treated a certain way because I felt like I had to for my career." Photo: Vianney Le Caer
"When I'm upset, he goes straight to solution mode, when what I really want is empathy."

For many men, the crying looks unproductive – it can even look like self-pity. Meanwhile, women just want a hug, or even a nod; a signal that they are understood.

For years, the reason given was that men don't like feeling helpless, and this is certainly a factor. But perhaps the core reason so many men jump straight into problem solving is not just about testosterone or "boys don't cry" social conditioning, but something far more simple: when (white) men speak, action is taken.

If we cry about our boss, our husband can't understand it because he would tell the boss, and the boss would listen. If we wish out loud for a pay rise, the men we know will tell us to go ahead and ask, (because they've never been turned down, right Karl Stefanovic?).

If we wince over bad service at a restaurant, our male date might tell us to speak up, because the problem would be taken care of if he did. If we moan about our friend, our partner doesn't get it, because if he told his friend, he'd be heard.

In fact, it's almost a foregone conclusion that if a (white, middle class, heterosexual) man lodges a complaint, nobody is going to call him a bitch or a slut or a prude or an ungrateful whinger. Nobody is going to flip the facts back on him, and suggest he made it up or that he's over-reacting.

The phrase, "male privilege" has received a lot of exposure of late. We understand it as a measure of unconscious power. But in simple terms, privilege might also be expressed as how credible you are as a witness to your own life.

Men speak, and are believed. Women speak, and are told to sit back down.

But now this silent gap, of how women have to metabolise every day abuses of power, is finally being shown for the gaping chasm it is. Men, in general, are beginning to understand how we must navigate our lives.

When someone hurts us, abuses us, harasses us, we sit with it and weigh it up, because we know we have to walk through life not believed, not listened to, not respected. If we are seen, it's through the male gaze, and we will be deemed sexual or ugly – either way, we will be reduced and objectified. Women don't expect solutions; at least not without backlash, or blame.

And so, we vent, we sit, we drink, we "process," because we know that in the end we will have to manage it. We just need to cry first.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/lif...ut-how-women-arent-heard-20171018-gz3as7.html

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Maybe the point of this thread was to explore the type of world where men are allowed to hit on women as a matter of right and destiny and women have to cope with this this xhit in whatever way they can ?

Men are allowed to hit on women. And women are allowed to reject them. Do you understand that this is how relationships start? The man approaches the woman and starts talking. You seem to be conflating two distinctively different things - harassment and normal attraction behaviours.

If you hate men and feel threatened every time someone says 'Hi, how's it going?, that's your issue to work on. Is that it? Or are you saying that you get approached constantly without giving off signs of interest? If it's the latter, I'd agree that sucks - men need to approach only when invited. Some probably find subtle cues hard to read.

 

[Logique]

Hollywood has looked the other way for a long time on Weinstein (a Democrat donor and friend of the Clintons) and others like him.

While posturing as holier than thou on social issues.

 

[basilio]

Men are allowed to hit on women. And women are allowed to reject them. Do you understand that this is how relationships start? The man approaches the woman and starts talking. You seem to be conflating two distinctively different things - harassment and normal attraction behaviours.

Of course people can make approaches, start up conversations, have fun. No probs.
I was referring to the behaviour outlined by the scores of women Weinstein harrassed, threatened, cajoled and abused.
Can we keep the discussion to those situations ?

 

[basilio]

Hollywood has looked the other way for a long time on Weinstein (a Democrat donor and friend of the Clintons) and others like him.

While posturing as holier than thou on social issues.

Fascinating. And I wonder what the far right thought about the repeated sexual assaults of Bill O Reilly and the Head of Fox News ?

This issue goes across politicl party spectrums. It's a power issue, an entitlement issue and a culture that finds it exceptionally hard to deal with the sociopaths who manage to become powerful people.

That point has been well made by Sir Rumpole and Gringott. It's worth exploring.