See apache hellfire take out 2 scumbags

[chops_a_must]

Are we talking about the same war-torn and drug growing country?

I have never heard genocide in Afghanistan. Care to explain?

Yes.

If you were not from the same ethnic group as most of the taliban, they would from time to time kill your whole village. There are very very few survivors of certain ethnic groups left. Most of the afghani refugees we took in were from these groups.

In a lot of cases, the taliban forced regions to grow opium because they could make more money from it, at the same time as controlling food supplies, and systematically starving regions.

 

[mayk]

Yes.

If you were not from the same ethnic group as most of the taliban, they would from time to time kill your whole village. There are very very few survivors of certain ethnic groups left. Most of the afghani refugees we took in were from these groups.

In a lot of cases, the taliban forced regions to grow opium because they could make more money from it, at the same time as controlling food supplies, and systematically starving regions.

Almost 70% of the afghan population is of Pushtun origin. Many Afghanis I know belong to that tribe.

The people you are talking about are northern Afghanis. And it was not genocide. It was a simple civil war, organised and orchestrated by former USSR. Modern Taliban, Pushtun's militant wing, created by USA, Saudia Arabia and Pakistan, to fight a sudo war for western powers during SOviat occupation. Geez we have short memory.

After the big guys left the town, small tribes started fighting each other and resulted in chaos. Which lead to the rise of Taliban and their romance with AQ, which ultimately lead to there defeat after 9/11.

Now the main players in town are :

USA : Who want to keep this fight going, as it is a so called 'legitimate' fight on terror (whatever that is!). Beside they require bases in that region for obvious reasons (Iran anyone).

NATO: Who are sick of USA, and want to windup the targetless war. But US is still bullying them around (UK and Australia) included. See my earlier posted links on the views of the British (who know this region quite well).

Russia: Just to take revenge and shadenfreude. Plus they want to extend and stretch the USA military budget for as long as they can.

India: Which is also trying to settle some score with its old rival Pakistan.

Pakistan: Whatever this country is trying to do is not succeeding. How can we expect anything from this country who cannot solve its own problem, let alone win the war for the west. It is on the brink of bankruptcy, its entire political leadership is corrupt, unfaithful and filthy rich. Its military is trying to keep a stronghold on its own frontier province, (also Pushtun population).


There are several groups trying to score points on the expense of Pushtun people, how long this game will be played is anyone guess, but an ultimate diplomatic solution considering all parties should be considered.

The key is to target AQ, and deextermize (if its a word) Taliban. Provide food and education. This problem need a longterm solution, not a temporary bandaid solution US is famous for.

 

[chops_a_must]

Almost 70% of the afghan population is of Pushtun origin. Many Afghanis I know belong to that tribe.

The people you are talking about are northern Afghanis. And it was not genocide. It was a simple civil war, organised and orchestrated by former USSR. Modern Taliban, Pushtun's militant wing, created by USA, Saudia Arabia and Pakistan, to fight a sudo war for western powers during SOviat occupation. Geez we have short memory.

I think you are over simplifying what was and is a massively complicated issue.

This is the run down of major ethnic groups in Afghanistan from wikipedia:

* Pashtun: 42%
* Tajik: 27%
* Hazara: 9%
* Uzbek: 9%
* Aimak: 4%
* Turkmen: 3%
* Baloch: 2%
* Other: 4%

The percentages don't mean much because there hasn't been any recording in a long time.

Most of the the Afghanis I've spoken to from memory were Hazaran. And this is a big reason for it, and backs up what I was saying:

The Taliban had Hazarajat totally isolated from the rest of the world going as far as not allowing the United Nations to deliver food to the provinces of Bamiyan, Ghor, Wardak, and Ghazni.[20] During the years that followed, Hazaras suffered severe oppression and many large ethnic massacres were carried out by the predominately ethnic Pashtun Taliban and are documented by such groups as the Human Rights Watch.[21] These human rights abuses not only occurred in Hazarajat, but across all areas controlled by the Taliban. Particularly after their capture of Mazar-e Sharif in 1998, where after a massive killing of some 8000 civilians, the Taliban openly declared that the Hazaras would be targeted. Mullah Niazi, the commander of the attack and governor of Mazar after the attack, similar to Abdur Rahman Khan over 100 years ago, declared the Shia Hazara as infidels.

The Hazarans are not 'northern' like you said.

 

[mayk]

* Pashtun: 42%
* Tajik: 27%
* Hazara: 9%
* Uzbek: 9%
* Aimak: 4%
* Turkmen: 3%
* Baloch: 2%
* Other: 4%

The percentages don't mean much because there hasn't been any recording in a long time.

Most of the the Afghanis I've spoken to from memory were Hazaran. And this is a big reason for it, and backs up what I was saying:

The Hazarans are not 'northern' like you said.

Thanks for the number run down, still majority are pashton, and they are denied the right to rule their region, hence their political and militant struggle against current government (which is anti-pashton).

I see, Hazarian must be shia, that is then a different story, of course Taliban are sunni and hence the endless sectarian war must continue. Sunni or Shia minority in any part of muslim world is a disaster waiting to happen, just give them enough ammunition and they will start the fire works.

Shias should be isolated just like Jews for their own protection. Ahhh, wait we already have Iran

 

[kitehigh]

Thanks for the number run down, still majority are pashton, and they are denied the right to rule their region, hence their political and militant struggle against current government (which is anti-pashton).

This is not true, Karzai and the majority of his Nationally Assembly are Pashtuns, so they cannot be anti-Pashtun.

 

[mayk]

This is not true, Karzai and the majority of his Nationally Assembly are Pashtuns, so they cannot be anti-Pashtun.

I was under the impression that USA before starting the war grouped up with northern Tajiks, against Taliban. Most of the current administration consist of Tajiks. Correct me if I am wrong. I can still remember reading the atrocities commited by tajiks against taliban at the start of war (revenge probably). Hamid Karazi is just a puppet head, who noone takes seriously outside of Kabul (hence the infamous nick name of 'Mayor of Kabul'). His brother is a drug lord, and drug business is rampant in his nation, and he does not want the foreigners to leave his country because as soon they will leave, the Pashtons will overthrow his government. He is just saving his seat.

Beside Afghanistan is still pretty much a 17th century country. Still tribal laws and customs are honored and no sense of strong government or federation exists. This has been the case for a very long time. I feel sorry for this nation. Their two generations have been usurped by war, first against the red army, now against the blue (US). Sad part is they did nothing to deserve this. It is a bad situation getting worse.

If you study history, you will find that colonial powers always support the opposition at the start of their colonization. Nothing different in Iraq and Afghanistan. But most of the colonization end up badly, another historical lesson for any one willing to learn.

 

[robert toms]

As I hear it the ones put into government are the Northern alliance cronies...what their tribal situations are I do not know.
Does anyone know what one aspect of propaganda is....when we label people scumbags,from the left,terrorists etc.
It puts groups in a box ,and no further correspondence will be entered into.
Same as calling George Bush a criminal moron.We do not consider his redeeming features.
"Democracies are controlled by propaganda,totalitarian regimes by the bludgeon"

 

[kitehigh]

I was under the impression that USA before starting the war grouped up with northern Tajiks, against Taliban. Most of the current administration consist of Tajiks. Correct me if I am wrong.

I will say it again Hamid Karzai is a Pashtun and so is the majority of his Nationally Assembly , do a google seach.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamid_Karzai
"After winning a democratic mandate in the 2004 election and removing many of the former Northern Alliance warlords from his cabinet".

 

[mayk]

I will say it again Hamid Karzai is a Pashtun and so is the majority of his Nationally Assembly , do a google seach.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamid_Karzai
"After winning a democratic mandate in the 2004 election and removing many of the former Northern Alliance warlords from his cabinet".

Oh I see, he replaced warlords with druglords. Still, I don't like the way he has not shown any sign of progress. Even Iraq is now in a much better state than Afghanistan. But they have probably oil to support themselves. Afghanis have only poppy for support.

I guess the reason a lot of superpowers lose interest in Afghanistan is their lack of natural resources. There must be something interesting in those hills, I reckon.

 

[kitehigh]

If there wasn't such a big demand for heroin from the west than they wouldn't be exporting as much as they currently do. It comes back to the demand and supply equation. On a side note I am now hearing that farmers are turning to growing wheat as its worth more to them then the poppy crop, especially since last years poppy crop was so huge it depressed prices.

Apparently Afghanistan does have a lot of natural resources especially coal which has been untapped. I know China is looking at how it can best get their mining operations up and running. The biggest distraction is the lack of security, but China has already shown it is willing to go into the more unstable areas to the get the resources that it needs.