Schapelle Corby - Innocent or Guilty?

[Green08]

Back to topic.

I'm sorry to disagree 2020 not on principle but the world we deal with now.

Understanding their laws - any other country in the earth is important. Basic things like drugs should be obvious -Don't do it.

Yes I think Australia's attitude to certain crime - no matter who is doing it should be change and serious penalty - more serious than we have now imposed.

I feel for the people they put as refugees in the middle of nowhere in revolving conditions. The serial killers get a better deal with hot meals, medical attention, aircon. many things in the world are screwed up.

 

[2020hindsight]

Who abused who?

and anyone who says it wrong also gets a flogging.
It's "Whom abused who"!
or maybe it's "Whom abused whom"? Hell now I'm confused.

Reminds me I heard em say on the ABC something like :-
"The answer are the professors"
got me scratching my head I can tell you

PS Nioka, my guess is that Explod has a sense of humour big enough to handle that one lol.

 

[2020hindsight]

PS Green - howdy.

btw, had you or anyone challenged me that alcohol also causes massive damage to us (countless social problems), then I'd agree there as well.

i.e. I just don't see that she deserves 30 years whatever for doing the equivalent of something that respectable tobacconists and publicans do in Aus every hour.

 

[robert toms]

I did say what judgement ...not what sentence.
There is a case similar to Corby where a Japanese girl was sentenced to seven years in Melbourne.She was on a tour passing thru Kuala Lumpur where here luggage/case got damaged.The helpful Malaysian tour guide offered to get it mended for,which he did.
When she arrived in Melbourne hash was found in lining of her case.
She told the court what had happened in KL,but they weren't buying that.
A few years later the culprit,imprisoned on a different charge in Malaysia,admitted what he had planted in her luggage.(he probably damaged the luggage initially)
It wasn't enough to get here any leniency or pardon,and she served out her time before going back to Japan.

 

[Green08]

btw, had you or anyone challenged me that alcohol also causes massive damage to us (countless social problems), then I'd agree there as well.

Completely agree on alcohol and the laws for drunken destructive behavior should be very hard. Hit with some much higher fines $6,000 for first drink driving offence and 6 points - would be a deterrent but you will always have losers who will always do the wrong thing.

And community service. Rampages destroying property, Rape, Domestic violence, Violence leading to death and maiming others.

Not the lolly water tax. Let's get serious. Start hitting them in the wallet

Killing someone jailed with no parole - as far as I'm concerned if you kill some one whilst drunk that is equal to planned murder.

 

[Nyden]

Killing someone jailed with no parole - as far as I'm concerned if you kill some one whilst drunk that is equal to planned murder.

That's a touch extreme. Surely this has to be situational - and be treated on a case-by-case basis. What was the reasoning behind the drinking? Example - a man has just lost his entire family (through death, or a bad divorce), and wrongly decided to hit the drink. In a critically irrational, and intoxicated state of mind he decides to go out for a drive, and an accident leading to a death happens. Should this case be treated the same as a case of premeditated murder? That's nonsense, of course not.

One mistake should not lead to a wasted life, even if said mistake lead to one. Why destroy 2 lives? This is why I feel that the entire justice system needs an overhaul; yes, I'm a bleeding heart. Afterall, for those of us that don't believe in an afterlife - this life is all we have.

 

[Green08]

That's a touch extreme. Should this case be treated the same as a case of premeditated murder? That's nonsense, of course not.

One mistake should not lead to a wasted life, even if said mistake lead to one. Why destroy 2 lives? This is why I feel that the entire justice system needs an overhaul; yes, I'm a bleeding heart.

Absolutely premeditated murder.

People know the law if they have a drivers licence, If they don't have a licence and drive they should be shot! Especially in any emotional state when drinking exacerbates the problem.

A person knows they have impaired reflexes, they know it is illegal, they know they could kill an innocent person or a family.

If you conciously know these things in Australia then to me- regardless of situation it is premeditated murder.

 

[Nyden]

Absolutely premeditated murder.

People know the law, especially in any emotional state when drinking exaserbates tr problem.

A person knows have their reflexes impaired, they know it is illegal, they know they could kill an innocent person or a family.

If you conciously know these things in Australia then to me- regardless of situation it is premeditated murder.

You have never been in an irrational state? When the thinking is so incredibly unclear, and you honestly don't even know what you're doing? I have been in such states, where I have hurt myself "intentionally" - I used to burn my hands. Do you think this was premeditated, and that I planned weeks in advance to hurt myself? Well, that's just foolishness :

I've said it once, and I'll say it again - criminals need therapy, and reintegration into society, not 15 years behind bars, where their behaviour will merely be further instilled.

 

[Green08]

You have never been in an irrational state? When the thinking is so incredibly unclear, and you honestly don't even know what you're doing? I have been in such states, where I have hurt myself "intentionally" - I used to burn my hands. Do you think this was premeditated, and that I planned weeks in advance to hurt myself? Well, that's just foolishness :

I've said it once, and I'll say it again - criminals need therapy, and reintegration into society, not 15 years behind bars, where their behaviour will merely be further instilled.

Nyden I hope your hands are better.

Let's stick to the topic of driving.

When you burnt your hands you were not driving I assume. Yes I've had moments of rage and after my upbringing which you may have read - I go for long fast walks by myself. The rages don't happen now.

If not premeditated murder by singling out a specific individual and killing them - the defined meaning by law. Then what do you call it. It is not just an unforunate situation, it is not just a death. It is somewhere inbetween.

Therapy will NOT help everyone. This was disussed in depth in another thread.

Evern with the best therapist there is no guarantee of change. That has to come from within the individual and want and willilngness to change.

 

[Nyden]

If not premeditated murder by singling out a specific individual and killing them - the defined meaning by law. Then what do you call it. It is not just an unforunate situation, it is not just a death. It is somewhere inbetween.
.

How is running someone over whilst intoxicated premeditated? How is it singling out a specific individual?! It's negligence, it's manslaughter - it's not intent on killing someone. Intent should be the most important factor in any case, anything else is irrelevant. An intoxicated individual would not target a pedestrian, and run them over with intent to kill ...

To the other topic; the 2 go hand in hand. If an individual is in an irrational state (perhaps even classed as temporary insanity), and drinks as a means to cope - this is anything but premeditated, and the punishment of murder does not fit this crime.

I agree that a person (criminal) has to want to change - but how will prison force that either? As mentioned, very few prison sentences are indefinite - and after 10 years in one of those places, an ordinary man who made 1 mistake, might come out a hardened criminal with no prospects but further crime. Force group therapy on prisoners at least, perhaps after a few years it might sink in - despite reluctance to change!

 

[Green08]

How is running someone over whilst intoxicated premeditated? How is it singling out a specific individual?! It's negligence, it's manslaughter - it's not intent on killing someone. Intent should be the most important factor in any case, anything else is irrelevant. An intoxicated individual would not target a pedestrian, and run them over with intent to kill ...

To the other topic; the 2 go hand in hand. If an individual is in an irrational state (perhaps even classed as temporary insanity), and drinks as a means to cope - this is anything but premeditated, and the punishment of murder does not fit this crime.

Nyden - it was just MY opinion. I do understand the law, in certain cases I disagree with the penalty. Freedom of speech.

Little confusion going on.

I gave the meaning of premeditated. It doesn't fit all cases however, I'm sure there have been jealous lovers etc drinking and out to kill the intented person.

Getting in a car drunk - just the act is premeditated. You want to get home, you want to drive the car, you turn on the key, you know you SHOULD NOT BE IN THE SEAT, but think you're invincible.

Killing an innocent person - may not be premeditated by definition.

Killing themselves driving through stupidity is an unforunate action and they deserve to die. Using the precious resources of Fire Brigade, Police, Ambulance, Doctors, Nurses Therapist for one Utterly stupid act is a waste when those resources are stretched and needed in critical cases. The person driving should be made to PAY back a major portion of the disaster they caused - only then may people stop the act in the first place.

The law in many cases - how good is your barrister - lets the driver off too easily. The take away the full responsiblity and ownership of the act. Here's some time for manslaughter - don't do it again. Society has left to a large part the fact that you can do things and the penalty is not that stiff.

You can't stop people drinking, driving, killing, going to therapy repeating.

I do not have personal experience losing a loved one like this or conviction . However should any one kill one of my children by drunk driving I will be baying for their blood! And their Death Sentence.

The way you're talking do you know someone personally who has been convicted of this?

 

[numbercruncher]

Alot of people want to be in Jail , living on the streets is a cold and hungry existence - they get a good deal on the inside.

 

[Nyden]

Nyden - it was just MY opinion. I do understand the law, in certain cases I disagree with the penalty. Freedom of speech.

Little confusion going on.

I gave the meaning of premeditated. It doesn't fit all cases however, I'm sure there have been jealous lovers etc drinking and out to kill the intented person.

Getting in a car drunk - just the act is premeditated. You want to get home, you want to drive the car, you turn on the key, you know you SHOULD NOT BE IN THE SEAT, but think you're invincible.

Killing an innocent person - may not be premeditated by definition.

Killing themselves driving through stupidity is an unforunate action and they deserve to die. Using the precious resources of Fire Brigade, Police, Ambulance, Doctors, Nurses Therapist for one Utterly stupid act is a waste when those resources are stretched and needed in critical cases. The person driving should be made to PAY back a major portion of the disaster they caused - only then may people stop the act in the first place.

The law in many cases - how good is your barrister - lets the driver off too easily. The take away the full responsiblity and ownership of the act. Here's some time for manslaughter - don't do it again. Society has left to a large part the fact that you can do things and the penalty is not that stiff.

You can't stop people drinking, driving, killing, going to therapy repeating.

I do not have personal experience losing a loved one like this or conviction . However should any one kill one of my children by drunk driving I will be baying for their blood! And their Death Sentence.

The way you're talking do you know someone personally who has been convicted of this?

Yes, and your opinion is of course valid green.

The solution to drink-driving in my opinion is having cars that perform a Breathalyzer test before starting - or having a lock box at pubs that will only give you your keys if you pass the test as well.

Well, premeditation involves intent, and planning. Drink driving whilst "knowing" (difficult to know, and prove) you might cause an accident is gross negligence at best - but I certainly wouldn't believe any planning was involved.

Perhaps there is something to charging a fee for any negligence, but surely this could even be done by the victims through the courts?

No, I don't know anyone who's had such a conviction, and I almost never drink myself either. I had a glass or 2 the other night (sparkling white) and could hardly walk! I nearly fell over into the wall on multiple instances; this just goes to show how different people have different levels of tolerance, probably due to the fact that I never really touch the stuff

 

[Green08]

Alot of people want to be in Jail , living on the streets is a cold and hungry existence - they get a good deal on the inside.

I suppose you have to weigh the pros and cons. Being someone's bitch or gang raping mmmmmmmmm

 

[Nyden]

I suppose you have to weigh the pros and cons. Being someone's bitch or gang raping mmmmmmmmm

Yes, those prisons are just top-notch at helping people re-assimilate into society, aren't they? :

One of the most influential lessons of my life, was when my partner fought with me over my wanting revenge for someone that had wronged her terribly. We got to a point in the argument, where it was brought up that even if someone were to ever kill her - she would not want any revenge taken on her behalf (and would in fact want me to forgive them), as she would never want a person to suffer because of her. It was from this that I learned of something wonderful - selflessness, and forgiveness.

My partner saved me through that lesson, and although it took a few good years to sink in - it has made a tremendous impact on my life. I guess I just try to pass on such wisdom's now in my musings

 

[Green08]

The solution to drink-driving in my opinion is having cars that perform a Breathalyzer test before starting - or having a lock box at pubs that will only give you your keys if you pass the test as well.

different levels of tolerance,

Serious - Great Ideas! Keep them coming - you might be able to strike a deal with the car guys in the US, part of the plan for the give me give me money mob. And charge a decent fee for the intellectual knowledge!! They seem to be lacking in this department.

Though some people might need a lock box at their front door and breath in a tester to see if it pops open.

Everyone has the tolerance difference, I don't believe fully in the body mass idea. many other factors you you have shown.

Allergies to so people get so insited by alcohol they are time bombs.

 

[Green08]

. It was from this that I learned of something wonderful - selflessness, and forgiveness.

Yes forgiveness is a virtue. I've done some healing in that area.

Take my child's life - I can't forgive. My children whom I dealy love, support and brought into this world to have a wonderful life.

I know where you are coming from - I've seen parents whose child was gunned down in a senseless gang initiation shooting get to a point in their lives to face the perpetrator in a controlled enviroment. Telling them what they took from a parent. The perp seems saddened and with the event fully regeristering for the first time on an emotional scale. Doesn't mean they will change. It is the parent who is the courageous one.

Don't think I could do it and hope to goodness I never have too.

 

[2020hindsight]

... Understanding their laws - any other country in the earth is important. Basic things like drugs should be obvious -Don't do it.

Trouble is there's a heap of corruption out there.

Lol - I remember whilst in the Philippines once - on a yacht at the Manila Yacht Club - and a crewmember of another boat went downtown and (foolishly) bought some pot from a local on a street corner.

Then went around the corner, only to find that he was questioned , searched and arrested by a policeman who looked for all the world like the twin brother of the bloke who'd sold it to him in the first place.

He was able to "purchase" his way out of the dilemna.

Another story almost identical - I have a rel, a girl, who was in Malaysia with a Christian group - three couples at the beach. Police turn up and ask to look at their wallets. They're inspected and a bunch of wallets handed back (in a bag or some such).

Anyway after they'd gone, one of the blokes discovers that there's an extra wallet, and it contains drugs of some sort. The lady who hired them the beach chairs warns them quietly that the police are not to be trusted. They hide the wallet in the sand. As they walk back to the street, the police approach them again - and say they want another inspection of the wallets. Signs of visible distress on the policemen's faces when they can't find the extra wallet.

 

[Agentm]

i think the ole it wasnt me.. it wasnt me.. is not the way to get out of jail for trying to bring in bricks with a body board.

if you think a little scam like what your talking about is to be used to demonstrate police corruption o/s, then you may want ot look a lot closer at the local state crime units past and present, and you may see a common thread but imho a far more sinister and dangerous one, here at home.

in the poorer asian countries you will find officers trying to make a buck, but that doesnt deminish what corby did.

she is not facing the death penalty, that is a good thing for her, but there are plenty of others in the prison system that are, local and foreign. all sad tales and many from far poorer circumstances and harder places and even forced into it, but for corby she had choices..

temptation is big, rewards are big... its all too much for many to accept, but you have to accept the circumstances of these people and help them you can.. there was a german teenager who ended up in a bali jail, i think his mother gave up her life as a school teacher, left germany left her family and went to bali and spent i believe 9 years or more feeding her son daily.. either that or the kid would have starved to death.. sacrifice, yes, but some cant bear the thought of a child dying on a cement floor in a hell hole.

sometimes, you have to understand that a few quick dollars in bali can cost you your life, if not, you and your families livelihood for many years..

i cant say corby deserves what she is getting, i just say she made a choice which you have to accept, i can assure you she is trying to accept her situation in her own way.. she is growing up fast.. but has not got the skills or the structure around her to cope well imho

 

[spooly74]

.
The solution to drink-driving in my opinion is having cars that perform a Breathalyzer test before starting - l.

:topic

Sorry Nyden, Volvo are on to it ... knew I'd heard it somewhere before.

http://www.strangenewproducts.com/2005/08/volvos-multi-lock-system-prevents.html