Same sex marriage - Yes or No?

Gringotts Bank · 22 August 2017

Value Collector said:
now gone, turns out its just the brain stopped working, so the brains emergent property e.g. our consciousness ceased to exist.

Right, so the identity is consciousness itself? And this same consciousness is not a stable identity in the sense that it comes and goes as we sleep. I like it, but...

I can be aware of my consciousness happening. I can describe that process in language and say "I am aware of being conscious". So, what is the 'I' in that statement? It can't be more consciousness because the subject cannot simultaneously be the object. What is it?

[If anyone complains, I'm sure Joe will split it off and create a new thread for us].

Value Collector · 22 August 2017

Gringotts Bank said:
Right, so the identity is consciousness itself? And this same consciousness is not a stable identity in the sense that it comes and goes as we sleep. I like it, but...

Not only that, as I said it is an emergent property of the physical brain. Damage or change the physical Brain and the identity can change. you can lose the ability to feel certain emotions, you can lose memories etc.

To me this is a clear sign that personality is directly linked to the physical brain, the two are one in the same so to speak.

I can be aware of my consciousness happening. I can describe that process in language and say "I am aware of being conscious". So, what is the 'I' in that statement?

to me you are just describing being self aware, which apart from word games that try to make it more esoteric, I can't see why its hard to understand that a physical brain, which has the emergent property of consciousness, can be self aware and describe itself.

the subject cannot simultaneously be the object.

why not?

[If anyone complains, I'm sure Joe will split it off and create a new thread for us].

I would prefer if you moved to another thread

Gringotts Bank · 22 August 2017

Value Collector said:
To me this is a clear sign that personality is directly linked to the physical brain, the two are one in the same so to speak.

to me you are just describing being self aware, which apart from word games that try to make it more esoteric, I can't see why its hard to understand that a physical brain, which has the emergent property of consciousness, can be self aware and describe itself.

I don't know how to move it. Joe, are you there?

The brain is definitely not the mind. The brain is the hardware, the mind is the running software. The brain is real, the mind is ephemeral and intermittent. If they were the same then unconsciousness would not be possible.

Yes that's exactly what I'm doing - describing self-awareness. But you already said that the 'me' is consciousness. Now you're adding another layer - a meta-consciousness - one which is capable of observing normal consciousness. So normal consciousness cannot be me if 'I' am observing it. I must be the meta-consciousness, right?

It's not word games.

Tink · 24 August 2017

Competing Rights in the Same-Sex Marriage Debate

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2017/08/15/4718836.htm

Deciding whether to legalize same-sex marriage involves dealing with a clash between adults' claims and children's rights.

Children need a mother and a father.
No to changing Marriage.

-----------------------------------

http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/

overhang · 24 August 2017

Tink said:
Competing Rights in the Same-Sex Marriage Debate

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2017/08/15/4718836.htm

Deciding whether to legalize same-sex marriage involves dealing with a clash between adults' claims and children's rights.

Children need a mother and a father.
No to changing Marriage.

-----------------------------------

http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/

The opinion piece would have merit if same sex couples required marriage to raise children but it's not the case, marriage or not they can already raise children so its a moot point.

Tink · 24 August 2017

The Gold Standard of 'man and woman' and as stated in the UN - Marriage - one man and one woman to have a family.

That should be protected for the next generation.

overhang · 24 August 2017

The gold standard society was when women couldn't vote but we've past that point and must settle with the society we have.

The next generation are already deciding and in overwhelming numbers they seem to be deciding that same sex couples should have the right to marry.

Tisme · 24 August 2017

Tink said:
The Gold Standard of 'man and woman' and as stated in the UN - Marriage - one man and one woman to have a family.

That should be protected for the next generation.

The inevitable rise of untreatable STDs, as the next generation realise enmasse they are all homosexuals as dictated by the nanny state, will see a rethink of why homosexuals were sent out of the tribe in the first place.

Rose coloured glasses seem to have obscurated the clarity of why and how AIDS spread through the gay community and why SSM is a trojan horse designed to empower a relative few to determine the agenda of community, politics, wealth and influence of the future....why you ask, because for the first time in modern history the relaxation of guards at the moral gates means they can and keep up the rampant promiscuity with a whole turned generation into the bargain.

Tink · 24 August 2017

There is no 'right' to marry.

Marriage is about children and raising those children.

Taking responsibility for the children, not handing them to the state.

The state should have no business in same sex marriage.

It goes against children.

Same sex unions - they have all the same rights.

The Gold Standard should stay.

overhang · 24 August 2017

Marriage is a right, Article 23 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights contains an express right to marry.

The state has no business in denying same sex couples the right to marry.

The gold standard society has been and gone, sadly women can vote.

The meaning of marriage for you isn't what it is for everyone else just like the meaning of mine isn't either, that's what the survey is for.

Wysiwyg · 24 August 2017

The age of disruption.

Tisme · 24 August 2017

Tink said:
The Gold Standard of 'man and woman' and as stated in the UN - Marriage - one man and one woman to have a family.

That should be protected for the next generation.

loud, but you might enjoy Tink:

Logique · 25 August 2017

332 posts - for 72 poll votes. Is the outcome - indifference?

Or are people reluctant to vote to make both Christianity & Islam illegal. Because that's where it's headed on a Yes vote. Against your beliefs to conduct a SSM? See you in court buddy.

Tisme · 25 August 2017

Logique said:
332 posts - for 72 poll votes

Is the outcome - indifference?

I think the silent majority has convinced itself that the outcome is inevitable and getting on with about the only thing left that hasn't been clawed away from them and isn't dictated or regulated by govt and the PC patricianists = breathing in public. I'm sure I just broke a law that says I shouldn't presume to think for myself, let alone hold my own views.

basilio · 25 August 2017

There will be a change of social landscape if the Marriage Equality Bill is passed. Gay married relationships will have a legal acceptance as being a valid part of the community.
Does that mean that relationships between men and woman will somehow be seen as strange or unusual? It seems that is the fear of advocates for a No vote. That acceptance of the other will lead to suspicion and derision of the current only legal form of marriage.

Tisme · 25 August 2017

basilio said:
There will be a change of social landscape if the Marriage Equality Bill is passed. Gay married relationships will have a legal acceptance as being a valid part of the community.
Does that mean that relationships between men and woman will somehow be seen as strange or unusual? It seems that is the fear of advocates for a No vote. That acceptance of the other will lead to suspicion and derision of the current only legal form of marriage.

It's simply an insult to those who consider marriage a sacrosanct union, that will be sullied and devalued by a fallacious carnival of deliberate vandalism. No biggy, just another rite of passage that will be relegated to history leaving yet another vacuum of social cohesion for our future robotic offspring.

Parenting will be next to transition away from biological bonding.

Logique · 25 August 2017

Sis tells it like it is.

23 August 2017 - As a 30-year-old woman, everyone expects me to vote 'yes'. But I won't be - Katherine Harper: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/as-a-...o-vote-yes-but-i-wont-be-20170823-gy2aar.html
I am a 30-year-old woman of liberal upbringing and no particular religious affiliation. Among my peers it is a foregone conclusion that I will be voting "yes" in the upcoming postal plebiscite on same-sex marriage. To admit otherwise would be akin to confessing that I am secretly a homophobe or hate preacher.
The fact is: I will be voting "no"....In my experience, the debate in the lead up to this postal plebiscite has been characterised by this sort of prejudice by the "yes" voters and their intolerance of genuine discussion around the issues. Legitimate debate is being drowned out; anyone who whispers a doubt to voting "yes" is immediately shunned ....What I'm not OK with is the shutting down of our right to sensible public debate and considered decisions.

Wysiwyg · 25 August 2017

The age of zealotry.

Tisme · 25 August 2017

Wysiwyg said:
The age of extremism.

You get the likes of Virginia, the self appointed voice of the people on ABC Breakfast sneering about the age of entitlement, but constantly promotes the rights of the individual's comfort as the expense of the community. She is one of those living ironies that is topsy turving community attitudes for no aother reason than because she can.

moXJO · 25 August 2017

I'm leaning towards no.

The debate has been hijacked, politicized, warped into an attack on free thinking and turned into something a long way where it should have been.
If it was passed with minimal fanfare or hype, I would have been fine.

US has gone mad with its PC BS. Now knocking over statues to try and erase history.
Equality is now only for those standing on your ideological side.

Same sex marriage - Yes or No?