Same sex marriage - Yes or No?

wayneL · 22 August 2017

Value Collector said:
Thats a red herring, because Men and women who are not able to biologically have children and those that simply don't want to are still allowed to marry.

Also, gays already have the right to adopt, so they are already forming families.

It's not a red herring at all and your argument is entirely fallacious. I said the **purpose of marriage, whether that is fulfilled or not.

Value Collector · 22 August 2017

wayneL said:
It's not a red herring at all and your argument is entirely fallacious. I said the **purpose of marriage, whether that is fulfilled or not.

Which part of the marriage act states children is the purpose, I can't find it?

Tisme · 22 August 2017

"When we institutionalize same-sex marriage... we move from permitting citizens the freedom to live as they choose, to promoting same-sex headed households. Now we are normalizing a family structure where a child will always be deprived daily of one gender influence and the relationship with at least one natural parent. Our cultural narrative becomes one that, in essence, tells children that they have no right to the natural family structure or their biological parents, but that children simply exist for the satisfaction of adult desires." -Katy Faust

Tisme · 22 August 2017

Value Collector said:
Which part of the marriage act states children is the purpose, I can't find it?

The section about legitimacy

overhang · 22 August 2017

Tisme said:
Look the thing is that you are welded to an opinion that has no foundation of proof.

Your post seem to denigrate choice as some kind of evil, but then proceed to propel your choice in promoting gay activities. I'm not blaming you for making those choices, it must be agony for you coming up against people who are comfortable enough to have a position counter to your own. Personally I couldn't give a rats what gays do, so long as they observe discretion and cleanup/disinfect afterwards.

Your posts in summary are all your opinion, you ask for scientific proof homosexuality isn't a conscious choice. I provide it, you reject it without providing any evidence yourself. I doubt any amount of evidence could convince you otherwise. Maybe you need to go out and talk to some gays and tell them you think they chose to be this way, or maybe you could run a successful gay conversion clinic, it may be quite lucrative if you happen to be correct.

Gringotts Bank · 22 August 2017

Value Collector said:
I wouldn't say its a total mystery, many questions have been answered, and some of the "Big questions" are not as big as those that want to keep you mystified make out.

Do you know who you are? No. (I can prove this much using logic).
Do you know who/what you were before being conceived? No.
Do you know what happens after you die? No.
Do you know the purpose of life? No.
Do you know why you are in this body as opposed to that body? No.

I don't know either. I have no idea and nor does the likes of Dawkins (science zealot). Big questions.

Value Collector · 22 August 2017

Are these the "Big questions" you were talking about? because I think they aren't that big at all, some are even pointless.

Gringotts Bank said:
Do you know who you are?

I am me, and thats all I can be (rather silly answer, but the question is also rather silly and pointless)

Do you know who/what you were before being conceived?

.

Before I was conceived I was a sperm and an egg.

Do you know what happens after you die?

Yes, your brain ceases to function, and you decompose. All the evidence points in the direction that "You" e.g. your mind and personality is an emergent property of your physical brain, and there is no evidence to suggest that any part of "You" exists outside your brain

Do you know the purpose of life?

It's up to you to decide what the purpose of your life is.

Asking "what is the purpose of life(in general)?" is a silly question, it's like saying "What is the purpose of mountains?", well mountains exist because the natural forces of nature caused them to exist, but they have no "predesignated purpose" they are what we make of them, if you love skiing then there purpose for you is skiing, just like the purpose of your life is for you to decide and what you make of it.

Do you know why you are in this body as opposed to that body?

Because this is the body that was the result of genes from the sperm and the egg that I came from

Big questions.

there are so many more interesting questions about the universe and how we got here that have been solved, I don't know why you think these questions you asked are interesting or hard

SirRumpole · 22 August 2017

Value Collector said:
and there is no evidence to suggest that any part of "You" exists outside your brain

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Value Collector · 22 August 2017

SirRumpole said:
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Sometimes it is, But the time to believe something is when you have evidence.

And there is a whole lot of evidence that suggests "You" e.g. your personality and your consciousness is directly linked to your physical brain.

Gringotts Bank · 22 August 2017

Value Collector said:
I am me

I am me?

You might have well have answered "I am I" and thought that was acceptable. Because now I'll ask what is the 'me' to which you're referring? The body? The personality? Something else?

When you existed as a sperm and an egg, you're telling me you existed as two separate things in two separate locations? Can a tree be both a tree and a cloud?

Value Collector · 22 August 2017

Gringotts Bank said:
Because now I'll ask what is the 'me' to which you're referring? The body? The personality? Something else?

The personality, which is an emergent property of my physical brain, which is part of and supported by my physical body.

When you existed as a sperm and an egg, you're telling me you existed as two separate things in two separate locations?

Well if we talking about "Me" as in my personality, I didn't exist until after my brain formed and started working, this happened long after the sperm and the egg met.

But if you are just asking "what was the pancake before it was a pancake" then the answer is it was a bunch of separate ingredients e.g. flour and eggs, just like the sperm and egg were separate before conception.

Can a tree be both a tree and a cloud?

the state of being a "Tree", is temporary. Before the tree was a tree its various components would have been clouds, and as they came together at a certain point you would label it a "tree" and then at the end of its life as it ceases being a tree its components may return to being a cloud.

Tisme · 22 August 2017

overhang said:
Your posts in summary are all your opinion, you ask for scientific proof homosexuality isn't a conscious choice. I provide it, you reject it without providing any evidence yourself. I doubt any amount of evidence could convince you otherwise. Maybe you need to go out and talk to some gays and tell them you think they chose to be this way, or maybe you could run a successful gay conversion clinic, it may be quite lucrative if you happen to be correct.

I never suggested I could cure the homosexual malaise, did I?

You haven't provided any proofs, merely axioms predicated on the absence of knowledge = suppositions.

There is a vast difference between incontrovertible proof and fantastic stories and you know I have only posted proofs and you haven't so far as I can ascertain. You too easily take the word of the "victims" rather than scientifically eliminate the intangibles and phantoms.

Tisme · 22 August 2017

Value Collector said:
The personality, which is an emergent property of my physical brain, which is part of and supported by my physical body.

Well if we talking about "Me" as in my personality, I didn't exist until after my brain formed and started working, this happened long after the sperm and the egg met.

But if you are just asking "what was the pancake before it was a pancake" then the answer is it was a bunch of separate ingredients e.g. flour and eggs, just like the sperm and egg were separate before conception.

the state of being a "Tree", is temporary. Before the tree was a tree its various components would have been clouds, and as they came together at a certain point you would label it a "tree" and then at the end of its life as it ceases being a tree its components may return to being a cloud.

I exist so therefore I am.

Gringotts Bank · 22 August 2017

Value Collector said:
The personality, which is an emergent property of my physical brain, which is part of and supported by my physical body.

So if your identity is the personality - if that's really who or what you are - then realize that when you're in slow wave sleep, the personality is non-existent. It's completely absent in any form. Are you happy to concede that you die - and I mean literally die - every night?

Wysiwyg · 22 August 2017

overhang said:
I see where you're coming from

I see where you're coming from yet my will is strong and it won't be changed by any pro same sex marriage (including disruption fanatics) whittlers.

SirRumpole · 22 August 2017

Gringotts Bank said:
So if your identity is the personality - if that's really who or what you are - then realize that when you're in slow wave sleep, the personality is non-existent. It's completely absent in any form. Are you happy to concede that you die - and I mean literally die - every night?

These are philosophical questions that have little to do with the title of the thread, although quite interesting in themselves.

SirRumpole · 22 August 2017

Gringo, I saw your last post. I meant no offence and please carry on. Maybe your wanderings will determine why some people are gay and therefore have some relevance to this thread.

Gringotts Bank · 22 August 2017

SirRumpole said:
Gringo, I saw your last post. I meant no offence and please carry on. Maybe your wanderings will determine why some people are gay and therefore have some relevance to this thread.

I know you meant no offense and none was taken... I was fooling around also.

I think philosophy is related in the sense that none of us can say who we are anyway,... that's quite a stumbling block. And as for free will... I mean, it just gets too hard.

overhang · 22 August 2017

Tisme said:
I never suggested I could cure the homosexual malaise, did I?

You haven't provided any proofs, merely axioms predicated on the absence of knowledge = suppositions.

There is a vast difference between incontrovertible proof and fantastic stories and you know I have only posted proofs and you haven't so far as I can ascertain. You too easily take the word of the "victims" rather than scientifically eliminate the intangibles and phantoms.

There is also a huge difference between identifying anomalies and understanding the reasons for those anomalies. As I have shown there is proof that gays have biological anomalies but why these occur are unknown. This is vastly more relevant than your theory you have put forward and I emphasise that this is your theory as you're yet to provide any proof or any shred evidence to support your claims. Frankly if I wanted to hear "you know I'm right" without any supporting evidence then I'd have this conversation with my 8yo nephew.

Value Collector · 22 August 2017

Gringotts Bank said:
So if your identity is the personality - if that's really who or what you are

That is who we are, think about when peoples brains have died, and there is no chance they are ever going to wake up, family and doctors will switch off life support allow the body to die and then bury it in the ground.

the whole concept of the "soul", leaving the body is just an ancient attempt to explain why a dead body no longer has a personality, its obvious to every one that something that existed inside the body before is now gone, turns out its just the brain stopped working, so the brains emergent property e.g. our consciousness ceased to exist.

- then realize that when you're in slow wave sleep, the personality is non-existent. It's completely absent in any form. Are you happy to concede that you die - and I mean literally die - every night?

I wouldn't describe it as death, but yes I would call certain phases of sleep unconsciousness, But other phases of sleep parts of your personality are present, e.g. during dreaming.

I would describe "dying or death" as a process which results in a state that makes a return to consciousness not possible, a brief spell of unconsciousness isn't death.

Even when your brain is shut down due to anaesthesia you aren't dead, your are just paused, and provided your brain doesn't suffer damage, the emergent property we call consciousness and "you" will return.

But as Rumpole said, this is not related to this thread, feel free to send a link to another thread if you with to continue this discussion.

Same sex marriage - Yes or No?