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Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sex Abuse

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SirRumpole said:
Nice ramble but illogical.

Priests can tell about crimiaal activity, but not about "embarrassments" that's their choice. They should be treated like anyone else under the law. If an individual becomes aware of a criminal act, the law says they have to report it. Why should priests be immune from that ?

"The government has decided to attack God". The churches behaviour has become so separated from the Bible, especially the teachings of Jesus that they cannot claim to represent the Bible even for those who choose to believe that book, let alone secular society.
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No, afaik, and from what i just read today, anything said DURING confession can't be relayed. It isn't their choice at all. Your group seems to have this default (erroneous) way of thinking, where the secular law is the only one that matters , or exists. For many people it isn't the only law that matters. We live in a world with multiple law systems, such as Catholic cannon law, secular law, Judaic laws, Islamic laws , etc ... It's a democratic feature to give each freedom , and works out for the best.

I don't know what you mean by "so separated". You shouldn't freak out too much if you see bad examples from time to time. Not that much of a surprise. If you want to see good examples, you can read about people like Joan of Arc, St Benedict, Frances, Faustina , Catherine of Siena , Mary Mackillop (Aus.), and other such royalty down through the ages . Faustina and Leopold are probably my favorites in the last 100 years, but I like Mary Mackillop too. From what little I know, swarms of people went looking for Leopold to confess their sins. He also made a marvelous prophecy before his death which came true: "The church and the friary will be hit by the bombs, but not this little cell. Here God exercised so much mercy for people, it must remain as a monument to God's goodness." And not to mention Mary Mackillop, who started heaps of schools for children.
 
grah33 said:
No, afaik, and from what i just read today, anything said DURING confession can't be relayed.
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We do not live in a caliphate!
It is vile that priests can hold the lives of sinners above those sinned against.
And how exactly is that Christian or Gods will?
grah33 said:
We live in a world with multiple law systems, such as Catholic cannon law, secular law, Judaic laws, Islamic laws , etc ... It's a democratic feature to give each freedom , and works out for the best.
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Australia has one law for all.
grah33 said:
You shouldn't freak out too much if you see bad examples from time to time. Not that much of a surprise.
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Maybe not a surprise in the Catholic Church, but not condoned in the real world.
But you are right, we should not be "surprised", we should be outraged.
Our society rightly rails against some Sharia practices which are anathema and so too should we against any religion that disrespects individual freedoms.
 
grah33 said:
We live in a world with multiple law systems, such as Catholic cannon law, secular law, Judaic laws, Islamic laws , etc ... It's a democratic feature to give each freedom , and works out for the best.
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The law of the land takes precedence of any religious "club rules", otherwise anyone calling themselves a religion could make up their own rules that infringe on the rights of others.
 
grah33 said:
And not to mention Mary Mackillop, who started heaps of schools for children.
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Well worth mentioning Mother Mary Mackillop. A very down to earth woman who started a new religious order to specifically educate the children of the poor and working class.

She also didn't put up with any xhit. In 1870 she heard about a Catholic priest who was sexually abusing children. She made a formal complaint to the Bishop. The priest was sent back to Ireland; Mother Mary was excommunicated ! Shoot the messenger indeed.
https://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2010/s3021839.htm
 
Check out this link if you are interested in a concise analysis of the findings of the Royal Commision with regard to the Catholic Church.
Its a long read but this is a defining story.

Five years in the Royal Commission: key lessons
Wednesday 28 March 2018
David Halliday, Media and Communications Office (Melbourne Archdiocese)

Last week Commissioner Robert Fitzgerald AM delivered the keynote address to the MacKillop Family Services national conference Child Safe Organisations: Prevention and Practice Beyond the Royal Commission at the MCG in Melbourne. In his presentation, Key Learnings from Five Years at the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse: Important Messages for Child and Family Welfare and Education Sectors, the commissioner was uncompromising in his assessment of the key lessons Australian institutions need to learn.

Throughout the Royal Commission, Mr Fitzgerald bore witness to the voices of 8000 victims of child sexual abuse and their narratives. In that time, over 4000 institutions were reported.

One of the main points he made was the importance of examining the past in order to proceed to a safer future. ‘Australia cannot trust organisations until they have proved they have learned the lessons of the past,’ said Mr Fitzgerald. ‘Many organisations are now busy making changes to create child safe environments. But it really fails the test if you don’t examine what went wrong in the first place.’

‘The Australian community should not trust institutions until you can demonstrate you have heard the stories of the past, you’ve heard the voices of victims of survivors, and you have learnt those lessons,’ he said.

Abuse is not a recent phenomenon, explained Mr Fitzgerald, and the Catholic Church is no different to any other church in Australia with a long history where there’s been abuse. ‘In the early colonial days of Australia about 33 priests were removed from Australia and returned overseas—some for child sexual abuse,’ he said.

‘In 1870, Mary MacKillop and her sisters were excommunicated and disbanded for reporting Franciscan priest Fr Ambrose Patrick Keating who was sexually abusing children. After a further investigation, MacKillop and her sisters were reinstated.’

‘We look to the past to see failure but also to see people who have stood up and done the right thing. There have always been people who have had the courage to stand up when they saw abuse. It’s not without risk when you do—there will be sometimes adverse consequences.’

Unsafe environments for children were present in institutions of all types across Australia, he explained. The fact that risk exists is not up for discussion, ‘but it’s a question of whether you can reduce that risk.’ Throughout his address, Mr Fitzgerald outlined a number of points essential for each institution to act upon to create safe environments for children.

http://www.cam.org.au/grovedale/Serve/Serve-Our-World/Royal-Commission
 
A little bit of history.Martin Luther was a Catholic priest until he made a trip to the Vatican.He was shocked by what he saw-the orgies and licentious behaviour.He then started the breakaway Lutheran church .Also the start of the reformation.
One thing that he wanted reformed was the idea that priests had to be paid to pray for ordinary,mostly illiterate people.He taught that people had a direct line to God,bypassing priests.
This,to Luther's horror,led the peasants to believe that they were as good as their masters and led to social unrest.These results were soon forcibly put down etc
 
chiff said:
One thing that he wanted reformed was the idea that priests had to be paid to pray for ordinary,mostly illiterate people.
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I suspect it was more the other way around in that it was the wealthy who bought indulgences to absolve themselves of sins and go straight to heaven.
Anyway, Churches became wealthy institutions, and to this day still offer a path to glory for creative individuals - let's call them actors - who find meaning in worshiping money and power.
 
rederob said:
We do not live in a caliphate!
It is vile that priests can hold the lives of sinners above those sinned against.
And how exactly is that Christian or Gods will?
Australia has one law for all.
Maybe not a surprise in the Catholic Church, but not condoned in the real world.
But you are right, we should not be "surprised", we should be outraged.
Our society rightly rails against some Sharia practices which are anathema and so too should we against any religion that disrespects individual freedoms.
Click to expand...


I didn't mean to have freedom for Sharia law. My wording wasn't good there. Nonetheless Christian democracy calls for certain religious freedoms to be allowed.

As per your logic priests should then reveal all criminal offences, and probably other things too, in which case this critical ministry would cease , or be inhibited. That's not going to work. And God is far above any human being, in terms of worth. This ministry is God's idea, and so cannot have human interference.
 
SirRumpole said:
The law of the land takes precedence of any religious "club rules", otherwise anyone calling themselves a religion could make up their own rules that infringe on the rights of others.
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Do you think Scott Morrison, a religious man it would seem (from some of those clips out there), would obey the law of the land if it was opposed to his personal morals?

This is exactly how the first Christian persecutions started.

Ever heard of "Big Brother" ? You seem to be very trusting in the "law of the land" ...

(Regards Sco Morr., i'm assuming he really does practice what he believes. In any case, there are many other people out there )
 
grah33 said:
Do you think Scott Morrison, a religious man it would seem (from some of those clips out there), would obey the law of the land if it was opposed to his personal morals?
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If he doesn't obey the law of the land which he is a participant in creating, then he shouldn't be Prime Minister, he should go into a monastery.
 
grah33 said:
I didn't mean to have freedom for Sharia law. My wording wasn't good there. Nonetheless Christian democracy calls for certain religious freedoms to be allowed.

As per your logic priests should then reveal all criminal offences, and probably other things too, in which case this critical ministry would cease , or be inhibited. That's not going to work. And God is far above any human being, in terms of worth. This ministry is God's idea, and so cannot have human interference.
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Confessionals are only "critical" to the Catholic Church: They are the perfect solution for the perpetuation of a multitude of guiltless crimes!
As to your idea that somehow "this ministry" is Gods idea, it wholly conflicts with the very same Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam who do not need it.
Many at this site who are atheists marvel at the ingenuity of religions to get such mixed messages from God, but it does explain why they babble on.
 
basilio said:
Well worth mentioning Mother Mary Mackillop. A very down to earth woman who started a new religious order to specifically educate the children of the poor and working class.

She also didn't put up with any xhit. In 1870 she heard about a Catholic priest who was sexually abusing children. She made a formal complaint to the Bishop. The priest was sent back to Ireland; Mother Mary was excommunicated ! Shoot the messenger indeed.
https://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2010/s3021839.htm
Click to expand...


Yes, she was persecuted by the Church. It often happens when one of these come along.

"Never see a need without doing anything about it" . I think she was like this all the time.
 
chiff said:
A little bit of history.Martin Luther was a Catholic priest until he made a trip to the Vatican.He was shocked by what he saw-the orgies and licentious behaviour.He then started the breakaway Lutheran church .Also the start of the reformation.
One thing that he wanted reformed was the idea that priests had to be paid to pray for ordinary,mostly illiterate people.He taught that people had a direct line to God,bypassing priests.
This,to Luther's horror,led the peasants to believe that they were as good as their masters and led to social unrest.These results were soon forcibly put down etc
Click to expand...


The Catholic Church doesn't teach that people don't have a "direct line with God" (no doctrine saying that). It also utilizes 'personal repentance' (consistent with the beliefs of modern denominations). Although, from way back (early Church) , they also confessed their sins verbally, and Christ gave authority to "absolve", so it seems to me that Catholicism and other older churches utilize all these methods. Reconciliation between God and man is valued more, and made more visible (important), when human agency is involved, and that's probably why Christ ordered it so. Before Christ we see that they went to John the Baptist and confessed their sins (out loud) ...
 
rederob said:
Confessionals are only "critical" to the Catholic Church: They are the perfect solution for the perpetuation of a multitude of guiltless crimes!
As to your idea that somehow "this ministry" is Gods idea, it wholly conflicts with the very same Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam who do not need it.
Many at this site who are atheists marvel at the ingenuity of religions to get such mixed messages from God, but it does explain why they babble on.
Click to expand...

Read the Old Testament. The Jewish people were also confessing. Lots of blood, sin sacrifices . Also Isaiah's oracles on the need for a human sacrifice... It all helps us to get the message of the New Testament.

And my post to Chiff before ...
 
We now know Pell is a liar.
"Cardinal George Pell was aware of abuse being committed by clergy as early as the 1970s, and on two occasions did not take action to remove paedophile priests, the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse has found."​
The Jury which found Pell guilty were likely on solid ground, as this man is accomplished in defending his inappropriate actions and being believed, despite regular implausibility.
What is retrospectively pivotal is who should be believed. And perhaps justices on the High Court might be less prone to overturn jury verdicts where the only real defence offered was lack of apparent opportunity.
 
As usual, important distinctions are once again being overlooked.

Falsely claiming no knowledge of others' criminal activities, does not equate to having personally engaged in those same activities.
 
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