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Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sex Abuse

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Zaxon said:
I look at it like this. Say there's a teacher at your local primary school. You hear from your neighbour that he's touched up her son. The next week, you hear from your cousin that the same teacher molested her son. And the next day, you hear from a former student, who's now an adult, who tells you the same teacher molested him when he was a kid.

Your son tells you that he's been invited over to this teacher's house for 1-on-1, special tuition. Do you let him go?

I'd hope your answer would be no. Pedophiles have patterns of behaviour. Rarely do they offend only once. It's the corroborating testimonies from independent people that gives you all the evidence you need.

In the case of George Pell, there are numerous, similar sounding stories from multiple sources. The forced sex with the choirboys he's been convicted of in Melbourne. The indecent grabbing of genitals in the swimming pool at Ballarat. The interest he's shown in the change rooms to make sure boys dry their genitals while he watched. The incident incident in Torquay where he stood naked in a change room in from of young boys for a lengthy period of time, and had to be told by Les Tyack, "I know what you're doing George. Clear out or I'll report this to the police."

We as non jurors, are allowed to weigh up all the independent evidence, the eerily similar stories from different parts of the state. You can form your personal opinion on that. In a court of law, the restrictions of what can be considered are extremely different. Very relevant evidence can be stricken, just because the judge said so. Other similar cases and testimonies can't be considered. The verdict could be overturned on appeal due to a technicality. And that's just how our legal system works. And that makes sense if the outcome is to imprison someone, you need extreme rigor in the process.

But as a member of the public who isn't a juror, you should consider the wider evidence you have available. Pedophiles have a track record supported by the testimonies of their victims. If you still conclude that George did nothing, then by all means, let your son go over to the teacher's house for 1-on-1, special tuition.
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Informative. You know lots about it. I am open minded to him being guilty though.
 
grah33 said:
Just to add Pell actually came around not too long ago. He snuck in , they were saying, this tall man, to get away from the media. The new guy, Comensoli , was also here not too long ago.

This discussion is a bit like the evolution thing. You got people that would believe if they felt the evidence was better. I imagine though that many Catholics do believe he is guilty since it's natural to believe what you've been told.
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There are religious nutters that deny evolution regardless of the evidence, same would go here, hard line Catholics will not want to believe spell did anything, regardless of any evidence.
 
Zaxon said:
I look at it like this. Say there's a teacher at your local primary school. You hear from your neighbour that he's touched up her son. The next week, you hear from your cousin that the same teacher molested her son. And the next day, you hear from a former student, who's now an adult, who tells you the same teacher molested him when he was a kid.

Your son tells you that he's been invited over to this teacher's house for 1-on-1, special tuition. Do you let him go?

I'd hope your answer would be no. Pedophiles have patterns of behaviour. Rarely do they offend only once. It's the corroborating testimonies from independent people that gives you all the evidence you need.

In the case of George Pell, there are numerous, similar sounding stories from multiple sources. The forced sex with the choirboys he's been convicted of in Melbourne. The indecent grabbing of genitals in the swimming pool at Ballarat. The interest he's shown in the change rooms to make sure boys dry their genitals while he watched. The incident incident in Torquay where he stood naked in a change room in from of young boys for a lengthy period of time, and had to be told by Les Tyack, "I know what you're doing George. Clear out or I'll report this to the police."

We as non jurors, are allowed to weigh up all the independent evidence, the eerily similar stories from different parts of the state. You can form your personal opinion on that. In a court of law, the restrictions of what can be considered are extremely different. Very relevant evidence can be stricken, just because the judge said so. Other similar cases and testimonies can't be considered. The verdict could be overturned on appeal due to a technicality. And that's just how our legal system works. And that makes sense if the outcome is to imprison someone, you need extreme rigor in the process.

But as a member of the public who isn't a juror, you should consider the wider evidence you have available. Pedophiles have a track record supported by the testimonies of their victims. If you still conclude that George did nothing, then by all means, let your son go over to the teacher's house for 1-on-1, special tuition.
Click to expand...

The notion of " legal evidence" is always interesting. As you would be aware Zaxon, the Pell jury would never have been told or, in theory know, about the other sexual misconduct allegations. Even now, despite whatever views we have, the legal view is that Cardinal Pell lived a blameless life apart from the incidents he was charged and convicted on.

In the outside world people have a broader view of what they accept as evidence. If a parent heard a few independent people saying a particular teacher or priest was fiddling with kids - actually we would wonder why that person wasn't having serious talks with the police.

But lets say the person just seemed "too friendly" with children ? That could stir some talk couldn't it ? Trouble is I have seen examples of either unwitting honest friendly behavior by teachers and nasty minded people who have spread misunderstandings or down right lies to take down teachers.

It's complicated isn't it ?:(
 
In a remarkable admission, German Cardinal Reinhard Marx said Saturday that documents that could have contained proof of clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church were destroyed or never drawn up.

"Files that could have documented the terrible deeds and named those responsible were destroyed or not even created," said Marx, the archbishop of Munich and president of the German Bishops' Conference.
"The stipulated procedures and processes for the prosecution offenses were deliberately not complied with," he added, "but instead canceled and overridden.
"Such standard practices will make it clear that it is not transparency which damages the church, but rather the acts of abuse committed, the lack of transparency, or the ensuing coverup."
Marx's stunning admission came on the third day of a historic Vatican summit focused on combating clergy sexual abuse. The day's theme was transparency, which Marx said could help to tackle abuse of power.
A member of Pope Francis' inner circle of advisers, Marx is one of the most powerful men in the Catholic Church.
The four-day summit of 190 Catholic leaders, including 114 bishops from around the world, will conclude Sunday with an address by Pope Francis. On Thursday, at the beginning of the unprecedented summit, Francis urged the bishops to take "concrete measures" to combat the clergy abuse scandal.
At a press conference later Saturday, Marx said that the information about destroying files came from a study commissioned by German bishops in 2014. The study was "scientific" and did not name the particular church leaders or dioceses in Germany that destroyed the files.
"The study indicates that some documents were manipulated or did not contain what they should have contained," Marx said. "The fact in itself cannot be denied."
Marx said he doubts the destruction of files related to clergy sexual abuse was limited to one diocese.
"I assume Germany is not an isolated case."
The report commissioned by the German bishops also revealed that "at least" 3,677 cases of child sex abuse by German clergy occurred between 1946 and 2014.
CNN's Lauren Said-Moorhouse and Livvy Doherty contributed to this report.




https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/23/...iXmCEWSeDqR-zL_XUp9e5AzeiVRM08bvQogYOFQBr2hco
 
There is a powerful story on ABC which shows the ongoing destruction of historiuc sex offenses by priests against children.

Very relevant when remembering there were two students abused by George Pell one of home became a heroin addict in response to the attack and subsequently died of an accidental overdose.

The paedophile priest who abused my husband lives on in our home every day
By Winnie Mulherin
Updated about 3 hours ago

10904484-3x2-700x467.jpg
Photo: Winnie and her son Alex are secondary victims of clerical abuse. (Supplied)
Related Story: Pell abused two choirboys. One of them didn't live to see justice
Related Story: Two childhood photos show how being raped by a paedophile priest changed my life
Related Story: A stranger raped me at knife-point. Until now, I thought it was partly my fault
Related Story: If you met me a year ago, you'd never guess that I abused my partner
When my husband was 11 years old, a Catholic priest revered by his parents singled him out to go for a drive to the beach.

His family was not financially well off, his home life was devout, strict and unhappy. Rarely were there family outings.

He jumped at the chance to fossick along the shoreline.

But when he got to the beach, he was sexually assaulted.

The priest told him it was "God's will". He'd always been told that priests were "close to God". He could not comprehend what had just happened to him.

This Irish priest was jovial, likeable, the life of the party. Articulate, witty and involved in local groups in this small, far north Queensland community.

He groomed parents and adults before moving onto their children.

The beach was just the first of twelve sexual assaults between 1977-1980, the depravity increasing with every attack.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03...bused-my-husband-secondary-survivors/10914174
 
The April edition of The Monthly has a story on Cardinal Pell and the effects of his conviction by Anne Manne. Well worth reading.

The introduction is very telling.

"BACK IN THOSE DAYS, they were entitled to think of paedophilia as simply a sin you repent of, "
Cardinal Pell told The Australian in 2012.
 
This a long read. However IMV it is well worth the effort if people are interested in another view of how the Catholic Church is travelling and has behaved with regard to sex abuse.
I have quoted only one powerful lowlight.

Abolish the Priesthood
To save the Church, Catholics must detach themselves from the clerical hierarchy—and take the faith back into their own hands.

....In the United States, also in 2018, a Pennsylvania grand jury alleged that over the course of 70 years, more than 1,000 children had been abused by more than 300 priests across the state. Church authorities had successfully silenced the victims, deflected law enforcement, and shielded the predators. The Pennsylvania report was widely taken to be a conclusive adjudication, but grand-jury findings are not verdicts. Still, this record of testimony and investigation was staggering. The charges told of a ring of pedophile priests who gave many of their young targets the gift of a gold cross to wear, so that the other predator priests could recognize an initiated child who would not resist an overture. “This is the murder of a soul,” said one victim who testified before the grand jury.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazin...e-the-church-dismantle-the-priesthood/588073/
 
Some things never ever change..
The Catholic Archdiocese of Ballarat is back in court defending itself against one of the hundreds of children raped by Gerard Risdale. Gerard was one of the most notorious child abusers in the district - and the Royal Commission found that his abuse was well known to his superiors.

But that was then and this is now... Archbishop Bird is now attempting to deny the evidence of the Royal Commission to save their sorry asses. Just astonishing and heart breaking.

On a similar note one of the big stories in Ballarat this week was a recognition male suicide in Ballarat was at record levels - in fact far higher than anywhere else in Australia. I wonder if the fact that Gerard Risdale and his fellow abusers ripped through hundreds and hundreds of children in their time as priests had any long term effect ?

Any chance of there being a connection ?
http://brokenrites.org.au/drupal/node/55
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05...commission-abuse-astonishing-defence/11165522
https://www.amhf.org.au/addressing_men_s_health_crisis_in_ballarat
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05...d-abuse-to-start-hearings-in-ballarat/6477132
 
George Pell is appealing against his conviction on charges of rape and abuse of 2 choir boys.
There is an excellent analysis of just how complex these cases are and the difficulties faced by judges and courts when dealing with historical child sex abuse cases. The rest of the story as it delves into other current cases under appeal is compelling.


The George Pell story is a long way from ending – even if he wins his appeal
David Marr
The high court has often backed trial juries in child abuse cases, and looms over the verdict of the Melbourne judges

Fri 31 May 2019 23.24 BST Last modified on Sat 1 Jun 2019 00.16 BST


George Pell stands a good chance of winning his appeal next week. Not that that would be the end of the matter. Lately the Victorian court of appeal has overturned a number of jury verdicts in child abuse cases, only to see those verdicts restored by the high court.

Child abuse cases are hard. The rules of evidence are complex. Witnesses are few. These assaults are inherently outlandish. Victims are frequently damaged. Often at stake is the ruin of old men who have never before been accused of crimes.

A gap has opened up between the Canberra and Melbourne courts in the past few years in child abuse cases. The language of the high court has been polite but its rebukes have been emphatic. Again and again it has backed trial judges and juries. Offenders set free on appeal in Melbourne find themselves behind bars once again.
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ng-way-from-ending-even-if-he-wins-his-appeal
 
Interesting comment about Cardinal Pell and his role in setting up the Catholic church response to sexual abuse.

Simple point. Here was a now convicted child sex abuser setting up a system that was intended to keep these abuses quiet and ensure that victims did not go to the legal system for any redress.

And the person who set up this system .... is now a convicted abuser of children.

Protecting his own interest perhaps ?

Longer version of how the Judges ruled on the appeal.
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-5d5c886a8f08a0805bcc18e4#liveblog-navigation
 
I know that Pell has been convicted of a crime, and yet I still don't know whether or not he is actually guilty, of the crime, of which he has been convicted.

What I do know, (provided the media has reported matters comprehensively and accurately), is that Victorians are no longer protected by the presumption of innocence.

The outcome of this appeal has only served to compound my loss of confidence in the Victorian legal system.

I ask those celebrating the verdict, and subsequent appeal dismissal, to ask themselves how they would feel, if personally brought to trial, and convicted, solely on the basis of the uncorroborated testimony of a solitary complainant or plaintiff!
 
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Cynic I would suggest almost every old case of child sex abuse by cleric or scout master or whoever ended up largely as the testimony of the victim versus the accused. Very unlikely to be physical evidence. Generally no one else in the room. That is just the way of rape/abuse.

Courts around the world have had many, many cases of these horrendous acts that what were previously "unthinkable" and therefore "unbelievable". Unfortunately they have almost all proven true. We have discovered how depraved some adults can be when given the opportunity to take out their sexual interests on children who, becasue they are children, won't be believed.

Cardinal Pell was convicted because the jury found the complaint a totally credible witness. Over 30 hours of interviews they decided he was telling the truth. That in fact George Pell had behaved the way he as alleged.

George had the best legal defence money could buy. He exercised all his legal rights He was then found guilty and now the appeal judges still accept there was no miscarriage of justice.

This is the statement from the surviving victim. Maybe this tells us they type of person who finally went to the police.


I am relieved at the decision of the Court of Appeal.

It is four years since I reported to the police. The criminal process has been stressful.

The journey has taken me to places that, in my darkest moments, I feared I could not return from. The justice machine rolls on with all of its processes and punditry, almost forgetting about the people at the heart of the matter.

Despite this, I appreciate that the criminal process afforded Pell every opportunity to challenge the charges and to be heard.

I am glad he had the best legal representation money can buy. There are a lot of checks and balances in the criminal justice system and the appeal process is one of them.

I just hope that it is all over now.

Some commentators have suggested that I reported to the police somehow for my own personal gain.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I have risked my privacy, my health, my wellbeing, my family.

I have not instructed any solicitor in relation to a claim for compensation. This is not about money and never has been.

Some commentators have suggested that I am somehow out to cause damage to the Catholic Church. I'm not on a mission to do anybody any harm. Although my faith has taken a battering it is still a part of my life, and part of the lives of my loved ones.

I am not an advocate. You wouldn't know my name. I am not a champion for the cause of sexual abuse survivors, although I am glad those advocates are out there. But that is not my path.

After attending the funeral of my childhood friend, the other choirboy, I felt a responsibility to come forward. I knew he had been in a dark place. I was in a dark place. I gave a statement to the police because I was thinking of him and his family.

I felt I should say what I saw and what happened to me. I had experienced something terrible as a child, something that marked my life. I wanted at least some good to come of it.

I would like to acknowledge my friend who passed away, the other choirboy, and pay my deep respect to him and to his family. I would like to acknowledge the courage of those people who reported to the police. For one reason or another, your cases were not advanced. My heart goes out to all of you.

I would like to acknowledge the Victoria Police and the Office Public Prosecutions. I am grateful for the steady hand of His Honour Chief Judge Kidd in guiding the trial and his compassionate, balanced and fair sentencing.

In February, due to other cases not going ahead, I ended up in the spotlight alone. The suppression order was to be lifted and I suddenly found myself at the centre of worldwide media interest.

I asked Viv Waller to help me manage the considerable media interest in the case and to protect my identity and my family.

I could not afford legal representation but that did not matter to her. I will be forever grateful that Viv agreed to help me and to do so for free. She has liaised with the media on my behalf. She has allowed the storms of public opinion to buffet her so that my young family could find safe harbour.

My journey has not been an easy one. It has been all the more stressful because the case involved a high-profile figure. I thank the media for respecting my privacy and for continuing to protect my identity.

I need to be able to define myself away from all of this. Recently I have started a new chapter in my life as a father. The experiences I have been through have helped me understand what is truly important.

I am grateful for a legal system that everyone can believe in, where everybody is equal before the law and no one is above the law

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08...ng-victim-reacts-to-appeal-dismissal/11434894

 
cynic said:
I know that Pell has been convicted of a crime, and yet I still don't know whether or not he is actually guilty, of the crime, of which he has been convicted.

What I do know, (provided the media has reported matters comprehensively and accurately), is that Victorians are no longer protected by the presumption of innocence.

The outcome of this appeal has only served to compound my loss of confidence in the Victorian legal system.

I ask those celebrating the verdict, and subsequent appeal dismissal, to ask themselves how they would feel, if personally brought to trial, and convicted, solely on the basis of the uncorroborated testimony of a solitary complainant or plaintiff!
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it looks pretty suss to me. beneath the lines the Church figures seem to be saying that they can't find any solid evidence against him.
also, quite a few are viewing this as complimentary to the recent removal of religious freedom (progressively in the last few months). not good at all.
 
grah33 said:
he Church figures seem to be saying that they can't find any solid evidence against him.
Click to expand...

Really ? Why not just consider what has happened. There was trial where a jury of 12 people looked at all the evidence and testimony and decided the victim as telling the truth.

The there was an appeal to a higher court. Three Judges went through the trial and reviewed all the evidence again. Two were totally convinced the victim was telling the truth and found so.


Appeals from jury decisions in sex abuse cases can be extraordinarily complex. This wasn’t. All the judges had to do – once they unanimously flicked away a couple of technical arguments about evidence and procedures – was to decide whether the facts stacked up against the cardinal.


He will soon be shifted to a country jail where Victoria houses its paedophiles. He will know so many of the priests and brothers there


They were a third jury. The first jury couldn’t make up its mind. The second convicted. And, after looking at all the evidence again – they watched the videos, toured the cathedral, examined the robes – the judges of the court of appeal by two to one upheld Pell’s conviction.


Juries don’t give reasons. Judges do. The key to their decision was clearly the accuser whose name we can never publish and whose evidence we will only ever read in summary. Ever since his allegations emerged a couple of years ago, those who have met him speak of an extraordinarily convincing young man.


Two of the three judges agreed. They did not doubt his evidence: “[He] was a very compelling witness, was clearly not a liar, was not a fantasist and was a witness of truth.” Pell’s failure is set out in hundreds of pages of judicial prose but it’s really as simple as this: most of the judges believed his accuser.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...l-pursed-his-lips-he-was-going-back-to-prison
 
basilio said:
Cynic I would suggest almost every old case of child sex abuse by cleric or scout master or whoever ended up largely as the testimony of the victim versus the accused. Very unlikely to be physical evidence. Generally no one else in the room. That is just the way of rape/abuse.
Click to expand...
What am I to make of this?!!
I hope you are not suggesting that this justifies the mere acceptance of a solitary witness, as to what may, or may not, have actually happened!

I am personally aware of at least three instances where innocent people have been falsely accused of similarly heinous sex crimes.
Sometimes the motivation was vindictiveness.
Other times accusers were primarily motivated by fear driven misperceptions,misperceptions to the effect that the subject (of their accusations), was perchance, inclined toward sexually perverse behaviours.
Courts around the world have had many, many cases of these horrendous acts that what were previously "unthinkable" and therefore "unbelievable". Unfortunately they have almost all proven true. We have discovered how depraved some adults can be when given the opportunity to take out their sexual interests on children who, becasue they are children, won't be believed.

Cardinal Pell was convicted because the jury found the complaint a totally credible witness. Over 30 hours of interviews they decided he was telling the truth. That in fact George Pell had behaved the way he as alleged.

George had the best legal defence money could buy. He exercised all his legal rights He was then found guilty and now the appeal judges still accept there was no miscarriage of justice.
Click to expand...
No! Only two, out of the three, judges presiding over the appeal, ruled for dismissal.
This is the statement from the surviving victim. Maybe this tells us they type of person who finally went to the police.


I am relieved at the decision of the Court of Appeal.

It is four years since I reported to the police. The criminal process has been stressful.

The journey has taken me to places that, in my darkest moments, I feared I could not return from. The justice machine rolls on with all of its processes and punditry, almost forgetting about the people at the heart of the matter.

Despite this, I appreciate that the criminal process afforded Pell every opportunity to challenge the charges and to be heard.

I am glad he had the best legal representation money can buy. There are a lot of checks and balances in the criminal justice system and the appeal process is one of them.

I just hope that it is all over now.

Some commentators have suggested that I reported to the police somehow for my own personal gain.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I have risked my privacy, my health, my wellbeing, my family.

I have not instructed any solicitor in relation to a claim for compensation. This is not about money and never has been.

Some commentators have suggested that I am somehow out to cause damage to the Catholic Church. I'm not on a mission to do anybody any harm. Although my faith has taken a battering it is still a part of my life, and part of the lives of my loved ones.

I am not an advocate. You wouldn't know my name. I am not a champion for the cause of sexual abuse survivors, although I am glad those advocates are out there. But that is not my path.

After attending the funeral of my childhood friend, the other choirboy, I felt a responsibility to come forward. I knew he had been in a dark place. I was in a dark place. I gave a statement to the police because I was thinking of him and his family.

I felt I should say what I saw and what happened to me. I had experienced something terrible as a child, something that marked my life. I wanted at least some good to come of it.

I would like to acknowledge my friend who passed away, the other choirboy, and pay my deep respect to him and to his family. I would like to acknowledge the courage of those people who reported to the police. For one reason or another, your cases were not advanced. My heart goes out to all of you.

I would like to acknowledge the Victoria Police and the Office Public Prosecutions. I am grateful for the steady hand of His Honour Chief Judge Kidd in guiding the trial and his compassionate, balanced and fair sentencing.

In February, due to other cases not going ahead, I ended up in the spotlight alone. The suppression order was to be lifted and I suddenly found myself at the centre of worldwide media interest.

I asked Viv Waller to help me manage the considerable media interest in the case and to protect my identity and my family.

I could not afford legal representation but that did not matter to her. I will be forever grateful that Viv agreed to help me and to do so for free. She has liaised with the media on my behalf. She has allowed the storms of public opinion to buffet her so that my young family could find safe harbour.

My journey has not been an easy one. It has been all the more stressful because the case involved a high-profile figure. I thank the media for respecting my privacy and for continuing to protect my identity.

I need to be able to define myself away from all of this. Recently I have started a new chapter in my life as a father. The experiences I have been through have helped me understand what is truly important.

I am grateful for a legal system that everyone can believe in, where everybody is equal before the law and no one is above the law

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08...ng-victim-reacts-to-appeal-dismissal/11434894
Click to expand...
From your response, it would seem that you do not have a problem with the possibility of being:
cynic said:
...brought to trial, and convicted, solely on the basis of the uncorroborated testimony of a solitary complainant or plaintiff!
Click to expand...
 
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