Richard Dawkins - right or wrong?

[2020hindsight]

well kgee, lol - I know how Dawkins would answer that .
me? - I'd want the option of replacing religion with a moral code (compare the greek philosophers) that is higher than a selfish desire to end up floating around in heaven with a harp and a pair of wings

and/or driven by a fear that one might end up stoking fires for eternity.

 

[jtb]

edgar cayce

jt- no I haven't previously read of him - but I have read Adam Smith on "Powers of the Mind" - and that mind of ours is one phenomenally powerful beast (assuming I'm not off on a tangent compared to where you are heading)

He was a big deal in the early 1900's in the US, uneducated man and the only book he ever read was apparently the King James bible.

Used to go to sleep ('The sleeping prophet') and questions would be put to him.
Many highly complex, medical (people on deaths door on the other side of the country etc), stuff he had never been exposed too in his waking state- quite amazing imo
Theres an institute devoted to the study of his 'readings'

Something to the group-mind concept perhaps.

 

[kgee]

Oh yeah and what about religously inspired art?
Was it the calvinists that talked of the "beauty of holiness" (or the catholics), no matter some of the art is fantastic...zen gardens, cathedrals, mosques
(sorry if I go off subject but my speakers aren't working so I can't get the utube)

 

[2020hindsight]

Oh yeah and what about religously inspired art?
Was it the calvinists that talked of the "beauty of holiness" (or the catholics), no matter some of the art is fantastic...zen gardens, cathedrals, mosques
(sorry if I go off subject but my speakers aren't working so I can't get the utube)

yeah, religion has built some great cathedrals - but at what price...
I mean much of the gold in the Vatican was taken by Columbus from the Incas, and is seriously covered in their blood

but sure, it has been a method to get a community thinking "in the same direction" and there have followed some great architectural (and scuptural etc) achievenemnts.

I guess you could say that the pyramids are based on religion, yes?.

And men used to spend their entire life applying gold leaf to just one wall of the old Siamese temples for example.

So yes- religion has been "a rallying cry". Still, I seriously wish it were possible to have an easy alternative.

He was a big deal in the early 1900's in the US, uneducated man and the only book he ever read was apparently the King James bible.

Used to go to sleep ('The sleeping prophet') and questions would be put to him.
Many highly complex, medical (people on deaths door on the other side of the country etc), stuff he had never been exposed too in his waking state- quite amazing imo
Theres an institute devoted to the study of his 'readings'

Something to the group-mind concept perhaps.

PS jt - I'll check out Mr Cayce some more - but Adam Smith covered similar phenomena - people suddenly speaking greek whilst under LSD (and being monitored) - speculation that they were Plato reincarnated etc - only to find that they had accidentally heard the sprukers at the Saturaday morning fruit market and were actually saying " couple of days , beeudiful" in fluent greek etc .

 

[Julia]

It's commonly accepted that the more educated people are the less likely they are to believe in religion/God.

It's probably reasonable to assume that most of the posters here have given the matter some intelligent thought and backed this up by reading and discussion with other similarly intelligent/educated people.

I hold no truck with religion whatsoever, but I wonder if we are not being just a bit unfair in condemning those who do find some comfort in religion?

I can think of quite a few not very bright, poorly educated people who have gone through some immense difficulties in their lives (often through no fault of their own) but have found some means of literal survival by joining a church group. Sure, they will say they have found the Lord, but I believe that is quite incidental to the fact that what they have actually found is somewhere that they are accepted and nurtured, allowing them to heal from some of the hurt they have sustained. To this end, I am much in favour of organisations like e.g. the Salvos for picking up life's rejects and offering them a way back to a valid existence.

Perhaps a group of atheists could similarly go round rescuing people in trouble and this would work just as well. Don't see why not. But I just haven't seen this happening in any sustained way

So I guess I'm not completely comfortable with rubbishing religion entirely, much as I despise the capacity of some of its leaders to manipulate and destroy.

 

[kgee]

So yes- religion has been "a rallying cry". Still, I seriously wish it were possible to have an easy alternative.

I certainly agree in that I wish there were better alternatives!
But isn't that the "nature of the beast" can we really say religion is so terrible when there is some probability that the world would be riddled with the same amount of depravations without the advent of religion?

 

[weird]

Perhaps we should all follow the moral code of footballers and their supporters (rather than those nasty violent religious types) ...

 

[kgee]

It's commonly accepted that the more educated people are the less likely they are to believe in religion/God.

.

Both Newton and Einstein believed in a God.
And if I recall properly when Newton was at Cambridge they estimate (by the amount of his writings and research papers that he produced) he devoted only a quater of his time in the devotion of Physics the other 3/4's was devoted to the search for God.
Although to be fair ,in my mind all scientists are a little mad

 

[2020hindsight]

weird - again,,,, quite often soccer clubs are religion based (croat vs serb etc)
not always I concede. (the Brits not always welcome on the continent etc) .

I used to (play and) umpire hockey in HK - lol - if an Indian team (generally Hindus) played a Pakistani one (generally Moslems), they would only both be happy if there was a "european" umpire

 

[weird]

This is a well known experiment, which shows how humans can behave in given roles and when in a groups .

http://www.prisonexp.org/faq.htm

http://www.lucifereffect.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Zimbardo

 

[jtb]

PS jt - I'll check out Mr Cayce some more - but Adam Smith covered similar phenomena - people suddenly speaking greek whilst under LSD (and being monitored) - speculation that they were Plato reincarnated etc - only to find that they had accidentally heard the sprukers at the Saturaday morning fruit market and were actually saying " couple of days , beeudiful" in fluent greek etc .

Love it:

Not going to touch the organised religion thing with a barge pole though

 

[weird]

I finally watched the Richard Dawkin's video in the first post ... lol ... Richard's depth and understanding on the subject reminds me of Clerks 2, Star Wars (science) vs Lord of the Rings (religion). Stoners ... science on, dudes.

Warning, MA 15+ rating on the following clip ...

 

[Wysiwyg]

1. I agree - Dawkins is a great trigger for some rational thought here
3. you sure do a lot of feeding and procreating

You won`t read this till later today but believe it or not my wish is for people to have a more individual and in control `perception` of life. (me too).With media, television and radio being so influential nowadays, it is easy to fall into the trance of the collective blahhh.(couldn`t think of the right word there).Breaking free or alternative (conscious) thinking and lifestyle may open doors that people never dreamed of.

p.s. from someone who is still dealing with `conditioning`.

 

[Wysiwyg]

and another thing ... on another forum these are the prefered requirements before participating ...

First our Vision for this forum: to create an environment for the stimulation, development and then the alignment of objective consciousnesses as defined and described by Georges Gurdjieff.

This issue of understanding is based on Objectivity. A few points about Objectivity:

For this group, linear thinking is subjective and only nonlinear thinking can be objective.

Objective is "how the universe sees itself". or we see ourselves

Our culture has co-opted the word "objective" and has made it to serve as an equivalent of "scientific materialism," but when you grok that scientism is, for the most part NOT scientific, but is rather another subjective religion then you see that no part of the word "objective" applies to science or "linear thinking."

Subjective is the story about the blind men and the elephant - they all think that the elephant is the part of it that they are feeling and that is all there is.but we know better

"We cannot reach the objective except through the medium of the subjective. This is the underlying reason for esoteric studies: they allow the exterior man to give objective validity to his subjective mentality. He can achieve this by a technique analogous to one we apply to precision instruments: before putting them to work, we determine the reading error of each.that`s right folks, we decide if our `exterior` man is in error

Indeed Gurdjieff had great vision ;

Mission: The Evolution of Humanity. This, too, is best described by Gurdjieff:

"Contemporary culture requires automatons. And people are undoubtedly losing their acquired habits of independence and turning into automatons, into parts of machines.

ain`t that the truth, this bloke could see it happening back then.I suppose i`m a computer automaton (at least consciously) (i think) .

p.s. I think Gurdjieff was awake.Maybe the wise person script should get precedent over other `less constructive` lessons at school.Maybe it is in government interests not to wake the individual up, let alone plant those wakening thoughts.

 

[Sean K]

Back to the original post at Dawkin's beautiful dream of a religionless world; while I would like to see it happen, I am not sure if we humans are evolved enough to make this 'dream world' any better than the current mess. Religion has always served as a set of laws by which to control the population and provide the easy answers. While the world has established social customary laws in replace of religion in secular societies, a great number of the planet is still operating under laws based on religious dogma, and many others on hardly any progressive laws which scarcely provide social justice, equality, equity, democracy, and fair for all. If we removed religion from its controlling function right now, the world could fall into anarchy. I doubt the human being will ever be able to live in a world of no religion. It certainly would be a dream to have a truly secular world where people can abide by a universal set of laws that create the greatest good for the greatest number, however, the human animal is a naturally selfish beast who protects it's space with avengence. S/he is intent on it's own survival, and will lie, cheat and steal to protect itself. The power of religion is at least providing some very strong motivation for people to live in accordance with their culture. My utopic Shangri-La of a society all striving for eudaimonia, or Dawkin's religionless world, is an impossible dream I'm afraid.

 

[motorway]

A religious attitude is most likely part and parcel of being human
And is a natural consequence of evolution...

It was from religion that mathematics Science Philosophy medicine etc etc all sprung from...

In building the Pyramids, Cathedrals etc.. ways and means and our very minds had to be developed..

Understanding nature .. Sun worship.. lead to the the calendar etc

ethics and morality

all spring form the fact that We have a self awareness.. that is able to reflect and see intention in ourselves and others... A natural step is then to see intention in everything else ( spirits , souls... Blood pours out and evaporates
death ...soul stuff... breath expires breathing stops last out breath.. spirit etc .. wind is a spirit etc )

Self esteem ...Is the all... Others are watching us....everything is watching us

intent awareness self esteem.... forces and powers ..gods and demons.. and the continual attempt to find God.....

Emotions focus and attach... and become the power to create culture technology and science ( How much energy and resources in building things like pyramids etc ? )

self awareness ( limited We are our own blind spots ).. need for self esteem..
the existence of others , rational thought and ( to rational thought ) irrational emotion......... A Human is ( by evolution or God's grace ) a religious being..

And We have our gods... ( The things that draw the most emotional energy to them... what do We build our pyramids to .... what would We fight for and over )...

Symbolic Thinking... We see ourselves in everthing and everyone We encounter...

Our fears hopes bias etc.... religion is a given ... powerful and as such can be destructive ( nazism ? maoism ? etc... )


motorway

 

[kgee]

If we removed religion from its controlling function right now, the world could fall into anarchy.

, the human animal is a naturally selfish beast who protects it's space with avengence. S/he is intent on it's own survival, and will lie, cheat and steal to protect itself. The power of religion is at least providing some very strong motivation for people to live in accordance with their culture

So religion is the glue thats preventing the world from tearing apart???

I would like to propose that this is totally wrong
I believe ingrained in our human nature is the desire for co-operation we may seem to forget it sometimes but we all generally fall back on it. Co-operation is the backbone of our evolution (survival)...
this may seem a little naieve as history tells us the world has been shaped by war and if you watch the news the only stories we get are of war's and other depravations...but there is no way we would have got this far without this underlying desire for co-operation.

I watched a show the other day about how hard it is to kill a man.... the premise was that in WW2 they estimate that only 15% of front line soldiers actually did any killing ( and the majority of these men could be labelled as psychopaths) 80% of the deaths during the war they suggest were done from a distance by artillery or airstikes. In todays modern soldier they suggest that around 90% of frontline soldiers are shooting to kill. This has been accomplished by training methods in which they are desensitised to killing. Unfortunately it seems a greater proportion of these men are suffering
Post combat distress (?)

 

[motorway]

Co-operation is the backbone of our evolution (survival)...

Survival of the fittest.... means those who cooperate the best gain advantage and are fitter..

At the individual level selfish wins in the short term
At the group level groups with cooperation win against those who don't cooperate.

At WAR... To sides charge each other's line !

An individual would be wise to hold back and not be in the first line
If he is one of a few .. he gains from his selfish behavior..
But if all of one group is selfish , all hold back , all try to be in the last line ?

Then they are ineffective. They get slaughtered by the other side.
where individuals do; do there bit ,hold there lines and take the battle forward...

A group of selfish people will all lose and get annihilated.
The group cooperating under the banner of something bigger than the individual.. Win and win as individuals as well.

This is the religious function..

evolution is full of examples of corporation
cooperation needs something bigger than the individual to be at work

it needs a glue

At the Human level at least
This needs the energy of emotion

Where is your passion ?
What arouses anger ?
Here the gods and demons
are hiding

motorway

 

[kgee]

.With media, television and radio being so influential nowadays, it is easy to fall into the trance of the collective blahhh.(couldn`t think of the right word there).

p.s. from someone who is still dealing with `conditioning`.

Although not mentioned I believe Advertising as being a greater evil than Religion ( and its probably more pervasive than religion)
Off subject but advertising is in some ways like religion in that it sells "illusionary" rewards if you will buy into their product.
but their ideals promote greed neediness and a sense of inadequacies if you cannot purchase their product - pure evil

 

[kgee]

Survival of the fittest.... means those who cooperate the best gain advantage and are fitter..


cooperation needs something bigger than the individual to be at work

it needs a glue



motorway

The "glue" is survival of both the individual the family and the tribe. Co-operation you might believe is an adopted method for survival in that its somehow an invention but I would like to believe it is the underlying natural order of life. Without it we,d be F####D ....
( apologies sometimes those swear words are the only ones that explain the way I think....not that my thinking is F####d....surely?)