Richard Dawkins - right or wrong?

[jtb]

I read 'Climbing Mount Improbable' (also by Dawkins) many years ago, while on a personal quest to prove their can be no god and the best thing about it was it turned my theories on their head and convinced me otherwise.

My rational mind has since been unable to comprehend evolution in the absence of external guidance as the mathematical probabilities are ridiculously remote.

It was one of his descriptions regarding beetles taking flight that brought to light for me the eons that would be required for mud to become a bird.
Not withstanding the enormous fossil record that would be available of the 99.9% of failed examples between that tadpole and the first flying creature?

If the planet is 4 billion years old and we look at the period of time the planet wasn't a boiling inferno nor a block of ice- we have had an awful lot of luck in profitable mutation in a very short period of time.

I remember reading somewhere that the odds of a single functioning organism arising by chance from the ooze was of the same order as winning first division lotto every week for 100,000 years.

Why would humans evolve a brain that consumes 50% of the bodies bloodflow and of which only 10% is utilised?????????

Nature abhors mutation and it is quickly killed off.

I'm afraid I've come around to the 'there can be no pleasure in the absence of pain' school of thinking and as such while we are most definitely animals there is something else going on

 

[motorway]

I remember reading somewhere that the odds of a single functioning organism arising by chance from the ooze was of the same order as winning first division lotto every week for 100,000 years.

Putting the God question aside...

Regarding evolution....

Functioning organisms do not arise by chance...Which would be Random Selection..

But by Natural Selection..


Big Difference

motorway

 

[2020hindsight]

Why would humans evolve a brain that consumes 50% of the bodies bloodflow and of which only 10% is utilised???

I agree with you that we are animals jtb, but on the other point (above) - we also have the stump of a tail at the end of our spine -

(btw the aim of this chatroom and these sorts of threads is to use some of the unused 90% of that brain lol)

I think you are saying there was a guiding hand through the forest of evolution yes?

Not sure how to challenge your alleged statistical chance of life there - lemme put it this was - I've gotta feeling it's wrong lol.
Who knows? "star stuff" might have triggered things(?)

If Man arrived at "17 seconds to midnight" (if a 12 hour clock is used to represent 4 billion years of the earth)

then we have 11hours 59mins 43 secs for the foundations to form. !!!

as Carl Sagan says ... how slowly life evolves -
molecules of early oceans to the first bacteria....
By the time one-celled animials had evolved, history of life on earth was half over.

check out the 1m10s mark ...
Carl Sagan - Origins

Changing direction somewhat ("Dawkins" covers a lot lol)
Then there's the "evolution of morality"
Here Dawkins claims that he has been misunderstood ( possibly intentionally so)
- that his reference to "the selfish gene" became an excuse to act as selfishly as one liked - and he was even blamed for the election of Maggie Thatcher. !

Dawkins: EVOLUTION OF MORALITY (1)

 

[Wysiwyg]

I think generally speaking, Dawkins is doing well to open minds with his perception on life.There is real evidence of other animals that existed long before human beings and real evidence of the desire for each living organism to continue living.

A new analysis of two human skulls previously found in Africa shows they date from nearly 200,000 years ago, making them the oldest known examples of our species.
The finding suggests our ancestors spent a long, long time wallowing in an uncultured era with no music, art or jewelry.
The fossils were found near Kibish, Ethiopia in 1967. Scientists had previously thought they were no more than 160,000 old. The new analysis of rocks in which the skulls were embedded shows them both to date back 195,000 years, give or take 5,000.

Feeding and procreating, Feeding and procreating, Feeding and procreating, Feeding and procreating, Feeding and procreating, Feeding and procreating, Feeding and procreating etcetera.

You get the drift.The forces of what we call `nature` are greater than small mind will ever be. (especially my pea )

 

[Driver]

I think raising this awareness (a la Dawkins) is very important, because the forces of religion are so organized & strong - one of his points is how children get labelled & shaped so early on by religion.

Whilst evolution seems to make sense, it is amazing how people can believe in Intelligent Design. Websites like www.answersingenesis.org, http://www.creationism.org, the Museum for Intelligent Design, Bible boot camps...

It is funny, because most of the surgeons I know are relatively god-less (in the atheist sense) - and it's not because we have our own god complexes but the more I see & do and medicine & surgery - it certainly can't be ascribed to an "intelligent" designer, a blind watch maker maybe...


I think the other great lure of religion, is the sense of individual importance - i.e. most religious people believe they are special or here for a purpose. It's amusing when you question them on that "purpose"... I liken it to them being in a movie, and that for their "purpose" they invariably see themselves as one of the leading characters - but!!! if they had a purpose, it might just be one of those other thousand background people. Some nameless delivery guy, or miscellaneous hench-person, or cop. Imagine if your "great" purpose in life was nothing more than to cross the road at one to alter traffic for one critical moment or some other mundane task and the rest of your life amounted to nothing. Not quite so romantic and alluring any more is it?

Related to this lure, is the abrogation of personal responsibility. I really can't stand it when people blame god or the devil for actions of humans. Life is a lot more difficult when each of us have to take 100% responsibility for our actions, especially our mistakes.

 

[2020hindsight]

I think generally speaking, Dawkins is doing well to open minds with his perception on life.There is real evidence of other animals that existed long before human beings and real evidence of the desire for each living organism to continue living.

[200,000 year old skeleton]

Feeding and procreating, Feeding and procreating, Feeding and procreating, Feeding and procreating, Feeding and procreating, Feeding and procreating, Feeding and procreating etcetera.

You get the drift.The forces of what we call `nature` are greater than small mind will ever be. (especially my pea )

1. I agree - Dawkins is a great trigger for some rational thought here
3. you sure do a lot of feeding and procreating
2. 200K year old - here's a table I found on "geological time" - with origins of man back 1.8 million or so. I'm not an expert ( although I long ago studied Paleontology - and equally long ago forgot most of it ) but presumably someone is happy to "extrapolate things back a bit" with confidence :2 twocents

The first men were made in Pleistocene it seems - well it's as credible as being made of clay ( in the case of Adam) and a rib ( in the case of Eve) :2 twocents


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_time_scale

 

[So_Cynical]

Quick question is he in opposition to God or opposition to religion?

Yes on both counts.

20/20 a request...next weekend can your subject be something non religious...how about something sexist.

 

[kgee]

"No suicide bombers, no 9/11, no Crusades, no witch hunts, no Gunpowder Plot, no Indian partition, no Israeli/Palestine wars, no Serb/Croat/ Muslim massacres, no persecution of Jews as "Christ-killers," no northern Ireland "troubles," no shiny-suited bouffant-haired televangelists fleecing gullible people ... no Taliban to blow up ancient statues, no public beheading of blasphemers ... "
.

I don't know if you can play the "devils advocate" and actually support religion but I'll give it a go....

1. a lot of these problems whilst they may have religion as a rallying point there are a lot of other mitigating factors...and can be explained as much by tribalism as by religion....In that its the protection and procreation of the tribe that are the causal attributes? So if we didn't have religion there would still be enough causes for war (explained by tribalism)

2. Religions often offer a lot of support to the community. Father O'Riley and the Youth Off The Streets program being one of my favorites

3. A way of personal salvation? Drug addicts, Inmates...I know a couple of guys that have found Religion whilst inside and now theyr'e changed people and great role models

 

[Wysiwyg]

Thanks for the link.

When the bibleological scriptures were created and assembled there was nothing like this around :

Radiometric dating (often called radioactive dating) is a technique used to date materials, based on a comparison between the observed abundance of particular naturally occurring radioactive isotopes and their known decay rates.[1] It is the principal source of information about the absolute age of rocks and other geological features, including the age of the Earth itself. Among the best-known techniques are potassium-argon dating and uranium-lead dating.

and modern technology is blowing holes in faith belief systems like never before.Self control of mind should be the new religion that the whole human race embraces.We may be seeing the transition phase from a controlled passive religion base to a freer radical mind set as the organism discovers new possibilities and adapts to them.

 

[2020hindsight]

Yes on both counts.

20/20 a request...next weekend can your subject be something non religious...how about something sexist.

heck cyn - I've already posted Johnny Howard's pinup girl
but I'll give your suggestion some thought .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggie_Thatcher

here are some quotes , some of which are possibly a fraction sexist (male or female as applic) :-

Whoever called it necking was a poor judge of the anatomy - Groucho Marx

Contraceptives should be used on every conceivable occasion - Spike Milligan

When I'm good I'm very good, but when I'm bad I'm better - Mae West

If I asked for a cup of coffee, someone would search for a double meaning - Mae West

Men's pupil's dilate more at the sight of a female pin-up than vice versa - John Fisher

The difference between sex for money and sex for free is that sex for money usually costs a lot less - Brendan Francis

 

[Driver]

kgee - comments about your points:
1) If you believed in a god - and to me, whilst religion & god are not the same, I can't see religion existing without god & is the central core of religion. And god is an omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent character - then you'd want to obey his, right? Now, I can't in my (pathetic human) mind see how any god would want harm done to others. If anything god should be a complete unifying force - against the very "valid" other reasons you give for wars to start - but if anything religion/god very very rarely seems to help. Part of this is because some of the deeper messages are twisted by those in power to suit they're ends/needs and control the populace...

2) "Religious" people do a lot of good. So do non-religious people. Religious people also do a lot of bad... This kinda argument leads to the view that atheists are amoral. I don't see that religion automatically equates to morality (it should, I think), and I think you can have a very good sense of morals without resorting to god & religion.

3) Hmm... without meaning to be nasty, if you look towards an external source to make you complete - I'd worry that you may not get the same permanence of resolution/salvation. I've come across a couple of 'born agains' and they've struck me a bit as being a bit on the loony fringe? Maybe it was a kind word or someone that offered them hope of a different life - I think this could be done without resorting to religion & god. I'd also wonder what happened if a series of bad things happened - i.e. what happened to my personal saviour / why is god doing this to me... which could lead to a relapse of behaviour - rather than if there was a basic inner understanding of the reasons for why their behaviour/actions were not ideal in the first place... imho, of course

 

[2020hindsight]

1. a lot of these problems whilst they may have religion as a rallying point there are a lot of other mitigating factors...and can be explained as much by tribalism as by religion....In that its the protection and procreation of the tribe that are the causal attributes? So if we didn't have religion there would still be enough causes for war (explained by tribalism)

2. Religions often offer a lot of support to the community. Father O'Riley and the Youth Off The Streets program being one of my favorites

3. A way of personal salvation? Drug addicts, Inmates...I know a couple of guys that have found Religion whilst inside and now theyr'e changed people and great role models

kgee -
1. Rafa has challenged me on this question many times - i.e. "religion causes wars" . I think we agreed that "religion causes (some) wars".

2and3. yep -

"If is conceivable that religion may be morally useful without being intellectually sustainable" - John Stuart Mills 1806 - 1873.

and I would happily use "God" myself when I need to give a child hope etc. (just posted this song on "Tunes" thread for example).

Equally I am more likely to respect a Salvation Army officer who is not going to lecture me on the subject, than some visiting American missionary with a barrow to push, and a monthly tally of converts to meet

Mark Wills - Don't Laugh At Me

 

[weird]

Darwin evolution ...

 

[jtb]

I agree with you that we are animals jtb, but on the other point (above) - we also have the stump of a tail at the end of our spine -

(btw the aim of this chatroom and these sorts of threads is to use some of the unused 90% of that brain lol)

I think you are saying there was a guiding hand through the forest of evolution yes?

Not sure how to challenge your alleged statistical chance of life there - lemme put it this was - I've gotta feeling it's wrong lol.
Who knows? "star stuff" might have triggered things(?)

Hey 2020,

Yes I agree with the star stuff wholeheartedly, but you nailed it with regard to the guiding hand thing.

Lets just say I've had a couple of 'experiences' that altered my perception.

Out of curiosity have you ever read anything about Edgar Cayce?

 

[2020hindsight]

omg - weird - that is hilarious lol!!!
(that's "oh my goodness" btw )

 

[tech/a]

Without the gulf of Mexico being the epicenter for a very large meteor and the dawn of the ice age---extinction of dinosaurs--man would STILL not be here.

To believe that A god created humans in his image without evolution playing any part is fanciful. In-fact I find it insulting to rational intelligence.

The weak need religion and gods,to instill meaning and hope.
The strong need religion and god to instill fear and power.

 

[Wysiwyg]

kgee - comments about your points:
- rather than if there was a basic inner understanding of the reasons for why their behaviour/actions were not ideal in the first place... imho, of course

Hi driver ... i`m not kgee (i`m open and honest actually lol) but the part most of us don`t admit is above.Not only won`t admit but don`t know how to `handle` it. Don`t you think religion offers a salvation to those that can`t `handle` their own mind?Religion is part of evolution too, as we move toward a better understanding of things (for want of a better word)

 

[2020hindsight]

edgar cayce

jt- no I haven't previously read of him - but I have read Adam Smith on "Powers of the Mind" - and that mind of ours is one phenomenally powerful beast (assuming I'm not off on a tangent compared to where you are heading)

 

[kgee]

Just in the interest of been fair and balanced
Maybe a more relevant question would be
" How would the world be now if religion had never been invented?"
it's a hypothetical but would the world be really such a different place as it is today if we had never had religion?
my guess is no... or if it was differrent it would be a lot less interesting...maybe a less soul???

 

[Wysiwyg]

The weak need religion and gods,to instill meaning and hope.
The strong need religion and god to instill fear and power.

Generally speaking tech/a this is what happens.Giving/helping unselfishly is rare.You know what i mean, not expecting anything in return.