Religion---where's all the money go??

nomore4s · 16 February 2009

MS+Tradesim said:
Pps. And lest I be accused of starry-eyed bias, as a Christian, I don't know what makes me angrier - that some churches have distorted the teachings of Jesus into means to feather their own nests, or that the rather vast body of work done by many Christians and churches to aid those who can't help themselves gets dismissed out of hand by those who brush ALL churches into the same stereotyped caricature.

shaunQ said:
Well I think your anger should be addressed to the former, not the latter.

Maybe it's the fault of the former for the latter.

My view is that while I personally believe all religion is nothing but a con there are religious groups that do alot of charitable work and put the money collected to good use but there is also the other side of the coin too, groups that waste copious amounts of money.
Like anything else humans get involved in - no matter what the original intentions are, greed eventually gets involved and unfortunately this has happened to alot of churches imo, some of them for centuries.

You can't tar all religious groups with the same brush but it only takes a few bad apples to cast doubts over the whole lot, unfortunately this is human nature.

jonojpsg · 16 February 2009

MS+Tradesim said:
I realise "religion" (Read: Christianity) bashing is a fashionable past-time but this thread takes the cake. For all you people on your pedestals knocking churches (and yes, some churches are easy targets to bash), go donate a week or two of your time in the front-lines with those who work aiding the marginalised (often volunteers) and find out how just how involved those "hypocritical" churches and christians (and other religions) can be.

Ps. And reread Julia's post. Especially this comment:

Pps. And lest I be accused of starry-eyed bias, as a Christian, I don't know what makes me angrier - that some churches have distorted the teachings of Jesus into means to feather their own nests, or that the rather vast body of work done by many Christians and churches to aid those who can't help themselves gets dismissed out of hand by those who brush ALL churches into the same stereotyped caricature.

Hear hear!

MS+Tradesim · 16 February 2009

tech/a said:
Or some of the posters here would have you Pay with your life because you don't follow their view or dare question their representatives of their God.

Talk about emotive words.

I, for one, am not defending expensive buildings or wasted money.

But you and TH and several others in this thread have shown yourselves to be incapable of thinking objectively about Christians, preferring instead your own brand of emotionalism by lumping all Christians and churches into the same mold.

Trembling Hand · 16 February 2009

MS+Tradesim said:
Talk about emotive words.

I, for one, am not defending expensive buildings or wasted money.

But you and TH and several others in this thread have shown yourselves to be incapable of thinking objectively about Christians,

Rubbish!!

I am not being emotive about anything!! I simply do not understand how so many resources can be wasted on non-productive things by the leaders of christianity while they preach modesty, the need to be humble and charitable.

I see it as hypocrisy. From my understanding the bible tries to preach one thing why those in charge practise something entirely different. I have not bashed what they do do as far as stuff on the ground. Just cannot for the life of me see how they can justify the cost to their community of such extravagant buildings and what they fill them with. What has that got to do with "their teachings".

MS+Tradesim · 16 February 2009

Trembling Hand said:
Rubbish!!

I am not being emotive about anything!! I simply do not understand how so many resources can be wasted on non-productive things by the leaders of christianity while they preach modesty, the need to be humble and charitable.

I see it as hypocrisy. From my understanding the bible tries to preach one thing why those in charge practise something entirely different. I have not bashed what they do do as far as stuff on the ground. Just cannot for the life of me see how they can justify to cost to their community of such extravagant buildings and what they fill them with. What has that got to do with "their teachings".

I agree 100% that it is hypocritical for SOME churches to teach one thing and then proceed to do another. No argument.

But you are being emotive.

You speak of "one of the problems I have with the Christian religion" then proceed to paint ALL Christians and churches with the same brush as though all stand within the broad caricature. You may not perceive that is what you are doing, but it is via universalist language. You do not modify your claim by saying some/many.

That lacks objectivity and reduces your valid core criticism to an irrelevant caricature.

sails · 16 February 2009

tech/a said:
...Flick on the TV and see the likes of Benny Hinn--- .

Personally, I find him an embarrassment and seems to be more of a showman than much else. Some are swept off their feet by him, but each to their own. Generally, the likes of the Hour of Power aired very early Sun mornings is more within my comfort level. I accept that everyone has their own ideas and fully respect that fact.

" A staunch Christian was clinging to the top of a tree during a flash flood.

A boat with 2 men on board approached.

"Quick jump in the water is rising at an alarming rate!"

No No God will save me rescue someone else.

Off they went.

Flood level rises and the guy climbs to the very top of the tree.

A chopper flies overhead with a rope dangling into the top of the tree.

"Hold on to the rope we will pull you aboard"

No No God will save me rescue someone else.

Off flies the chopper.

The water eventually rises and sweeps the man to his death.

In heaven he stands before GOD.

" God why did you for sake me??"

" Well First I sent you a boat--then a chopper-- what more did you need?"

This is just so true - I like it

sails · 16 February 2009

Trembling Hand said:
Rubbish!!

I am not being emotive about anything!! I simply do not understand how so many resources can be wasted on non-productive things by the leaders of christianity while they preach modesty, the need to be humble and charitable.

I see it as hypocrisy. From my understanding the bible tries to preach one thing why those in charge practise something entirely different. I have not bashed what they do do as far as stuff on the ground. Just cannot for the life of me see how they can justify the cost to their community of such extravagant buildings and what they fill them with. What has that got to do with "their teachings".

Well said, TH. I agree there is a lot of hypocrisy especially when bad apples get into positions of authority.

Personally, I believe there are also good people who are far from being hypocrites, but as someone said earlier, a few bad apples gives the whole batch a bad name.

Trembling Hand · 16 February 2009

LOL

Fair enough. But it still stands then. Why don't all the good people on the bottom of the pile stand up to the few on the top wasting their positions, opportunity and resources?? Why is it fine for the pope to preach to me about values when he lives in the Vatican with all its opulence and pillaged wealth from far afield and from the poor bugger on the street?? Why has he still a voice when he and all around him live the ultimate double standard?

When the big man comes down to save us all from our suffering hope I'm around to see what happens to the pope in his gold stitched Santa outfit before I'm marched off to hell.

sails · 16 February 2009

Trembling Hand said:
LOL

Fair enough. But it still stands then. Why don't all the good people on the bottom of the pile stand up to the few on the top wasting their positions, opportunity and resources?? Why is it fine for the pope to preach to me about values when he lives in the Vatican with all its opulence and pillaged wealth from far afield and from the poor bugger on the street?? Why has he still a voice when he and all around him live the ultimate double standard?

When the big man comes down to save us all from our suffering hope I'm around to see what happens to the pope in his gold stitched Santa outfit before I'm marched off to hell.

I don't have all the answers either. Maybe because better natured people are not forceful enough. Perhaps they are more peace loving and so move elsewhere if they don't agree.

I'm not a Catholic, so don't know the answers. Personally, I agree about the double standards issue you raised. No one has to be a catholic if they don't like it. One can always vote with their feet.

Some churches don't have a building at all - meet in rented halls, etc so again, there is huge extremes and diversity between organizations and their people.

I certainly don't agree with everything that's dished up in the name of religion, however, have attempted not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

jonojpsg · 16 February 2009

tech/a said:
Love it.

Just question anything to do with Religion and it only takes a second to find emotive words like---Hate--Pay with your life---appearing.

I'm with T/H.
Flick on the TV and see the likes of Benny Hinn---

Or some of the posters here would have you Pay with your life because you don't follow their view or dare question their representatives of their God.

Religion and Politics gets em everytime.

OK tech, how much money did you give to the fire appeal? How much do you give to charity each year? As a percentage remember, because it's not how much you give but how much it counts to you what you give.

Then if you get over ten percent of your income let me know

Trembling Hand · 16 February 2009

Jono thats not the argument.

They(not all) take saying its to do gods work but then use it to do exactly the opposite. Can't remember seeing anywhere in the bible about building monstrous places of worship filled with treasures and silk batman capes??

actually now I think about they do do gods work. They are very good at judging people :

Sakk · 16 February 2009

Trembling Hand said:
LOL

Fair enough. But it still stands then. Why don't all the good people on the bottom of the pile stand up to the few on the top wasting their positions, opportunity and resources?? Why is it fine for the pope to preach to me about values when he lives in the Vatican with all its opulence and pillaged wealth from far afield and from the poor bugger on the street?? Why has he still a voice when he and all around him live the ultimate double standard?

When the big man comes down to save us all from our suffering hope I'm around to see what happens to the pope in his gold stitched Santa outfit before I'm marched off to hell.

LOL. I'm with ya all the way

Julia · 16 February 2009

Julia said:
Perhaps, Tech, you could address my contention that the churches are private organisations and are without obligation to offer funding to anyone other than their members.

They don't receive tax payer dollars so I can't see why you should expect them to deliver money into the community other than at a level of their choosing.

It is the responsibility of governments to deliver assistance to anyone affected by national disasters. As far as I can tell, this has been happening pretty well.

I understand representatives of the various churches have been out there amongst the fire victims, offering simply someone to talk to in an attempt to share the grief and sadness. This means a lot to many people.

I've always been very clear about my opposition to organised religion, but at the same time anyone with a sense of objectivity would regard some of the comments on this thread as simply nasty in addition to being ill informed.

tech/a said:
Love it.

Just question anything to do with Religion and it only takes a second to find emotive words like---Hate--Pay with your life---appearing.

You may have missed my post above Tech. I'd really appreciate your response.
Thank you.

I'm with T/H.
Flick on the TV and see the likes of Benny Hinn---

So on the basis of an aberration like Hinn who is clearly all about personal greed, you ridicule all the people who do make a genuine effort within their communities. I'd have given you credit for more sense than that.

Or some of the posters here would have you Pay with your life because you don't follow their view or dare question their representatives of their God.

This seems somewhat of an overstatement!

To TH: I think most people would empathise with your feelings about the obscene displays of wealth in the, umm, head office of the Catholic Church.
I could forgive even that if the Pope and his cabal would stop their stupid vetoing of the use of condoms just for one thing. And I cringed at the way Sydney was turned on its head so the World Youth Day thing could happen.

But all that's a separate issue from the original point of this thread.

tcoates · 16 February 2009

To Tech/A and TH (and others with similar viewpoints),

From the original post (Tech/A) wondering about the giving of the church to the fires and floods - You would make it seem that people in church therefore did not give any monies to the fire victims (via red cross or ???). You seem to forget the church is made of the people, and it is the people that give. Just because you do not see it (compared with the McGrath foundation) does not mean the people in the church do not care or are not helping.

On Sunday (just past) at our local church, there was a retiring collection in case you did not donate via the red cross or wanted to donate more.

Rather than cast aspersions about the church, why don't you actually go to some local church as ask them what they do with "all the money" they get. You might get a surprise as to what they do "with it all".

Tim

Since you could not be bothered the google the answer, try here

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080803232615AA10OA6

(It is a good answer)

Trembling Hand · 16 February 2009

Sorry Tim it is you who have it ar$e about. I never said the church doesn't give and certainly didn't say the people that make up the church don't give as individuals or as a group.

What I did say is that I find it abhorrent that as an ORGANISATION they preach humbleness and giving and always talk from a background of superior morals while they DO NOT PRACTISE IT.

That they believe they have the right to preach about what is right/wrong yet they sit in silk Santa clause dress surrounded by gold goblets and art pillaged from the far flung parts of the world and seem to be able to fool themselves that "this is the word of god".

Come on!!

I find it somewhat bemusing that it cannot be explained why such infrastructure, which is beyond the biggest multi-national companies, is needed to preach what a simple carpenter was able to supposedly do with nothing other than words. Is it not questioned because those that are part of the religion like the superiority of being part of such infrastructure?? Like someone likes working at head office, walking into a grand marbled foyer makes you feel good? Removes you from the beggar in the street?

Religion---where's all the money go??

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