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luutzu said:
Now... the businesses are saying that, look Canberra, the people are getting poorer and poorer and weekends or not, only a few well to do could afford to take anyone out, and those other plebs need to save up a fair bit to do it - so there's no extra work really. That or they'd just say, remember those thousands we "donate" to your campaign? When's the last time any shift worker donate to you guys? So do the right thing and not be Christian.
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The argument as I understand it, is that Sunday penalty rates should be the same as Saturday (time and a half as opposed to double time ?), and that sounds reasonable to me.

If Christians complain, they should be going to Church and not working. :D Originally I think that Sunday penalty rates were a sop to the Churches, but they have less influence these days and both rates should be the same.
 
SirRumpole said:
The argument as I understand it, is that Sunday penalty rates should be the same as Saturday (time and a half as opposed to double time ?), and that sounds reasonable to me.

If Christians complain, they should be going to Church and not working. :D Originally I think that Sunday penalty rates were a sop to the Churches, but they have less influence these days and both rates should be the same.
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A corollary to that is if the majority of the population have nothing better to do, instead of church going, they will be looking for something to do on Sunday and penalty rates aren't going to do much to slow sales, because price is relegated when self gratification to relieve boredom takes over.

I remember when 1. Saturday afternoon trading was enabled, 2) when Sunday trading was enabled and how it was some kind of opiate for the retailers and masses ... I'm yet to be convinced it's had any benefit that outweighs the loss of family interaction, loss of leisure time, loss of introspection, etc. as must needs have been replaced by must haves.

I remember 20 years ago I had a couple of freeways to myself on a Sunday morning, now they are packed.
 
Tink is a fan of the old magicians trick of misdirection.

When trying to convince people the church has been a force for good, she will point at some charity work or a chap mediating during civil unrest and say "there that's Christianity" while she sweeps centuries of misdeeds and killings under the rug.
 
SirRumpole said:
The argument as I understand it, is that Sunday penalty rates should be the same as Saturday (time and a half as opposed to double time ?), and that sounds reasonable to me.

If Christians complain, they should be going to Church and not working. :D Originally I think that Sunday penalty rates were a sop to the Churches, but they have less influence these days and both rates should be the same.
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According to the Bible the penalty for working on the sabbath is death, not double pay.
 
Tisme said:
A corollary to that is if the majority of the population have nothing better to do, instead of church going, they will be looking for something to do on Sunday and penalty rates aren't going to do much to slow sales, because price is relegated when self gratification to relieve boredom takes over.

I remember when 1. Saturday afternoon trading was enabled, 2) when Sunday trading was enabled and how it was some kind of opiate for the retailers and masses ... I'm yet to be convinced it's had any benefit that outweighs the loss of family interaction, loss of leisure time, loss of introspection, etc. as must needs have been replaced by must haves.

I remember 20 years ago I had a couple of freeways to myself on a Sunday morning, now they are packed.
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Were you saying that retail is today's religion? Keep it Simple McGregor.

Traffic are getting pretty bad in Sydney though. Takes an hour or more on trips that would have taken 10 minutes off-peak.
 
SirRumpole said:
The argument as I understand it, is that Sunday penalty rates should be the same as Saturday (time and a half as opposed to double time ?), and that sounds reasonable to me.

If Christians complain, they should be going to Church and not working. :D Originally I think that Sunday penalty rates were a sop to the Churches, but they have less influence these days and both rates should be the same.
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Never let what the other side was saying getting in the way of a good argument :D

I don't know about all these penalty rate stuff, especially since we tend to go Yum Cha on special occasions and we all know how those extra pay will never make its way down to the waiters and cooks - much like the minimum wage and those Seven-Eleven employees.
 
luutzu said:
That's short and sweet. :xyxthumbs

Should sell that on a shirt VC. To both major parties. :D
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The religious among us will just say "NO,NO,NO where the bible says stone the person working on the Sabbath to death, it doesn't actually mean kill them, its a metaphor for a spiritual death" and "Where the bible says death, it actually is an error in translation, it was meant to say life" etc etc .
 
Tisme said:
I am heartened by my scepticism: I'm sure Westfields and those industry super funds that own the shopping centres are profiting, but according to this article:



http://mckellinstitute.org.au/wp-content/uploads/pdf/McKell_Retail-Hours-Report_A4.pdf
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"... days of reflection (Good Friday, Easter Sunday, Christmas Day and Boxing Day) as well as Anzac Day.." ??

Funny. I would have thought Anzac Day being day of reflection with the others being days of getting drunk and opening presents.

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Funny how it's kind of obvious once you read the conclusion and think about it - flexible hours won't increase spending, money in people's pockets will.
 
Value Collector said:
The religious among us will just say "NO,NO,NO where the bible says stone the person working on the Sabbath to death, it doesn't actually mean kill them, its a metaphor for a spiritual death" and "Where the bible says death, it actually is an error in translation, it was meant to say life" etc etc .
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How do they explain the spiritual stone? Those leary dirty looks?
Killing the spirit tend to also messed people up too though.

But as crazy as religion is, if religion isn't there to excuse certain... certain civilising cause, it'll be something else. We humans are quite something.
 
I don't see you mentioning any of your communist atrocities, VC?

We appreciate the living and the dead, we value human life, family, responsibility and accountability.

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Value --

the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something.

principles or standards of behaviour; one's judgement of what is important in life.
 
Tink said:
I don't see you mentioning any of your communist atrocities, VC?

We appreciate the living and the dead, we value human life, family, responsibility and accountability.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Value --

the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something.

principles or standards of behaviour; one's judgement of what is important in life.
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I like to think VC plays for effect, rather than vicious belligerence. Afterall he does demand respect for his belief system that homosexuals are just like the rest of us :D
 
Tink said:
I don't see you mentioning any of your communist atrocities, VC?

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That's because I am not a communist Tink, So I have no atrocities to mention.

You how ever are a Catholic, and openly support Catholicism and Christianity in general, So its fair for me to point out the atrocities committed by your organisation. Until I am a card carrying member of the Russian communist party you can't link me to anything that a communist party did to entrench its power.

I challenge you to find a single post where I have ever said I support communism, or any of the communist manifestos or literature, or where I have said children should be indoctrinated into communism, or you need to be communist to be a good person etc etc.

We appreciate the living and the dead, we value human life, family, responsibility and accountability.
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So do I, and you don't need to invoke fairy tales to do any of those things, In fact I think that belief in an afterlife can actually cause people to appreciate this life less, why else would they be willing to do a suicide bombing mission?

And its Christianity that human life by itself is kinda worthless, you here them say stupid things like "without god there is no meaning in life" etc

As far as accountability goes, Christianity's view is that as long as you ask forgiveness and accept jesus, your sins are forgiven, and you have no need to make things right, hell Christians believe in using jesus as a scape goat for their sins, where is the accountability in that???
 
A book titled "The Jihad of Jesus: The Sacred Nonviolent Struggle for Justice" by Dave Andrews, highlights the wrongs of both Christians and Muslims throughout history...

http://www.amazon.com/Jihad-Jesus-Nonviolent-Struggle-Justice/dp/1498217745

on page 6 starts includes...

How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while there is still a beam in your own eye? 5You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. (Matt 7:4,5)

the above applies to the those both religious and not.

Originally Posted by Value Collector View Post
The religious among us will just say "NO,NO,NO where the bible says stone the person working on the Sabbath to death, it doesn't actually mean kill them, its a metaphor for a spiritual death" and "Where the bible says death, it actually is an error in translation, it was meant to say life" etc etc .
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Ummm. NO. And cherry picking again and/or making assumptions. You also do not seem to be taking into consideration social and cultural aspects of the books were actually written. The books of the OT were written - hundreds of years after the event and concept of the time (in writings) was much different than today. And in their writing would see the world as "if something bad happened, God was angry with us", and "if something good happened, God was happy with us".

And, YES, lots of BAD things, including rape, incest, murder, (and otherwise historically) but you cannot just exclude those parts you dislike. You are reading of events in the past (real or fictional, and 'YES' some of is), through the lens of a group of people/writers. Otherwise you are filter "history" and if you do that where do you stop! You cannot roll back the BAD things that people have done to each other in the name of God.

Finally, just because you see a reaction of some christian in the media does not necessarily represent the viewpoint of all christians.
 
In fact I think that belief in an afterlife can actually cause people to appreciate this life less, why else would they be willing to do a suicide bombing mission?
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Because some stupid religion said they would be rewarded for it, but that's not a reason not to believe in an afterlife.
 
Tisme said:
I like to think VC plays for effect, rather than vicious belligerence. Afterall he does demand respect for his belief system that homosexuals are just like the rest of us :D
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I know you're itching for more, but maybe wait til this settles before prodding again.
 
Value Collector said:
T...
As far as accountability goes, Christianity's view is that as long as you ask forgiveness and accept jesus, your sins are forgiven, and you have no need to make things right, hell Christians believe in using jesus as a scape goat for their sins, where is the accountability in that???
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The accounting is in the donation baskets :D
 
SirRumpole said:
Because some stupid religion said they would be rewarded for it, but that's not a reason not to believe in an afterlife.
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Would they do it if they didn't believe in an afterlife?

That's my point, a doctrine that promotes belief in an afterlife, is more likely to see a lower value to this life, and perhaps human life in general.

but that's not a reason not to believe in an afterlife
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Offcourse its not, But the lack of evidence is a good reason to not believe.

If there was good evidence to believe something, I wouldn't disbelieve it just because I thought it was negative, just as I won't try and trick myself into believing something because I feel its positive.

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This sums it up,

 
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